JC316

iTrader: (1)

I see a higher volume of cars than most people, so that's why my opinion is what it is. The one owner is a false sense of security. Say the guy has service records and a great story. How do you know that the 25K miles wasn't 1/4 mile at a time? Unless it has the original tires on it, the only thing that you have is his word, which again, he is selling you something.

I've been burned too many times by taking people at their word.

In 04, gas prices soared to record levels and jobs were getting hard to come by, at least in my area of the country.

speedychevy

What would you consider a "premium" price for the 25k mile WS6 TA? I've been leaning towards this one from the start but in my mind it would be tough to warrant buying this car and making a daily commuter out of it. Unless I get a good deal on it, but even so it would be better in someone's garage than as my DD. What would you look for in a daily driver trans am?

My current car is a SS Camaro that I love driving but I've wanted a trans am for as long as I can remember. My plan is to find a nice TA and hopefully hang onto it for while. Going to sell the camaro once I find the right car. Definitely going to miss the SOM color though.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Firebrian nicely outlined the significance of this above; what the owner tells you might not be 100% honest/accurate/etc., but at least you have the opportunity to judge his character in this regard. Some people are a better judge than others, so perhaps this is why some of us value this factor more than others. And again, it's also a matter of odds - odds are that a one or two owner ~15 year old/50k mile car will be in better shape than the same age/mileage car with 4+ owners. That's something important to consider if you have to make a long trip to look at a car - if I'm going to travel then any red flags have to be pretty minimal, otherwise I'd rather not waste the weekend and the cash involved for the trip. In this case, hearing things like paint issues and a bunch of different owners at ~50k miles, yeah I'll just keep on looking unless it's a screaming deal and/or really close to home.

I agree completely with Firebrian and NC01TA on this aspect because, like them, this is exactly what I've personally experienced in the market as well.

The 2004 that I lived through wasn't anything like this at all. There was a big gas price spike in my region in late '05 due to Katrina, but the really high prices didn't hit here until spring/summer of 2008....then quickly tanked along with everything else. Jobs were generally easy to come by around here until the Great Recession of late '08+. And Firebrian is exactly correct about strong/record collector car pricing leading right up to this crash, many collector cars hit an all time peak value in the ~2007 timeframe. This Firehawk was only 5 years old during that period though, not sure a basic example such as this was really on any sort of collector radar at that time, so I doubt the multiple owners are a result of various "collectors" passing this car around early in its life.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Thing is, I wouldn't even be considering such a car for a true daily driver in the first place. This 25k mile WS6 probably is worth about $15k, all things considered, but in general that's a lot of money for a 15 year old used car. What you're paying for is the popularity/demand of this model, trim and options, and the super low mileage and associated condition. That super low mileage and associated condition will be quickly negated if you're going to drive it in winter (at least winters in my region) and for daily commuting, etc. I'd rather save several thousand dollars and get something with less collector desirability - say a higher mile example and/or a regular Trans Am that's just had a WS6 hood added (why pay a collector premium for an original WS6 car when it's not going to stay in collector condition for very long?)

Keep in mind, basic daily driver type insurance coverage won't value this car at $15k, so you're taking an additional risk there by paying so much for such an old car. You can obviously get collector type insurance that will cover it for $15k or beyond, this is what I have for mine, but that will put limitations on how you can use it, and daily driving is definitely not allowed. Again, just another reason I won't pay a collector car premium for something I intend to use as a daily driver.

I guess, if you can get the car for as cheap as one with twice the miles and in lesser condition, then it's probably a good buy even as a daily driver since you haven't paid a premium that's quickly negated by how you use it. So if the guy with the 25k mile car comes down as low as what you can get comparable 50-60k mile cars for, then the financial argument goes out the window. Personally though, I like these cars (4th gens) too much to buy a super nice one like this and then put it through the nastiness of true daily driving, so I'd end up storing the car and still needing another daily driver anyway....haha. So in my case, better to just not buy it unless I'm looking for another toy.

Firebrian

Like I said, I like the option to be able to question a 1st owner and see of some things come out that could indicate problems. You don't go right to the jugular on the first question: "Did you ever beat on the car?" Because you'll get the answer you "expect." Rather, ask them how they shifted the car. How is the shifter? Did they ever miss any shifts? Which ones? What fluid did you put in the transmission last time around? When was the last time you changed the clutch fluid? If you don't get any real details, then either the guy didn't do anything, or farmed it all out (hmm, no receipts or invoices?). You can trip someone up pretty easily if they start to weave a tail of the perfect owner who babied their car. Eventually, something comes out that doesn't fit. And you yank on that until their story explodes. That sure beats having to completely guess what 3 out of 4 owners did. Yeah, I've had owners lie to me over the phone, and continue it when the car is right there in front of me as "proof." In the end, you do have to rely on what the car is telling you.

When I bought my car with 12K miles in 2012 I didn't believe the owner for a second that the car still had original tires. They were in great shape, 50% life left and no signs burnouts, uneven wear, etc. It wasn't until I got home and researched how to find the date codes on them that I figured out he was telling the truth. Seeing as they were 14 years old at the time, it would have been better if they had been changed.

Let's not forget that 95% or more of these cars were daily drivers from the get go. My 1998 Z28 was such a car and had 115K miles by 2009. It was in rather surprisingly very good condition considering it saw some snow days, plenty of rain, and was mostly parked outside. In fact, the body, paint and interior could have passed for 55K miles. There wasn't a single paint bubble, blister, or scratch on the car. A tiny ding by the gas cap was imparted by someone else. There were no rips or stains in the interior. I was very careful every time I got in and out of that car. I treated like a collector car...even if it was a DD. I treated it just like my 1968-1970 Mopars. Seeing as you're in North Carolina and not New England, you should have a let less problems keeping it nice all year round.

I see no reason why a 25K mile car can't look like 55K miles when you get to 100K. Wash, wax, detail as needed. Most important, find a way to keep that roof covered when sitting out in the sun. A simple dash pad size cover can be rigged up to cover the sail panel on a TTop...and tie that into the windows. I did it. While it all can be done, it is easier to just find a 50K-80K mile WS6 with more warts. Even then, the pickings are slim as most M6 WS6's under $12K will have 80-100K miles. Personally, I think the biggest bargain in these cars is that the low mileage premiums are WAY too low. In other words, your best values are cars with 15K-55K miles. Someone may as well use those nearly "free" miles. These cars are either going to need restoration someday from sitting around for 25-40 years, or having been driven 125K-200K miles. I'd rather drive them.

Firebrian

My own SS has gone from 12K to 17K miles in the 4 yrs I've owned it on mostly weekend "fun" duty. I have managed to put a few more hairlines and stone chips in the paint and a couple marks on the wheels. While there are no dents or scratches, it's clearly not as mint as when I first bought it. If it was rated a 9.5 before, it's 8.5-9.0 now. I'm starting to think I just might want to start driving this a whole lot more. Why shouldn't I get to use those relatively cheap miles up to say 45K over the next 5 years? The car is worth around $12K-$13K now. And with 45K miles, would probably still be worth $10K-$11K. You can't save all of these cars. They are still going to get used and miles slowly piled on. The only exceptions will be highly optioned cars under 10K miles already, and anniversary or special editions. My '99 SS M6 is certainly nothing special in rarity. And even at 75K miles would probably still be worth $8K. I can always go out and buy another 12K mile '99 SS/Z28 M6 for $13K. The continued proliferation of hot 375-485 hp muscle cars from Chevy, Ford, and Dodge over the past 7 years is probably only going to make our cherished F bodies that much less important.

At one time I thought the 225hp late 1980's and early 1990's Fox body Mustangs were going to be a great long term car. During that era there were very few "cheap" hot cars. Well, today that 225hp 25K mile Mustang doesn't stack up near as well as we'd have hoped. Another way to look at the performance phenomena is that there are a lot of cars to consider from say 1966 to 2016....and it continues to grow. In 1994 I bought a 1993 22K mile black M6 Trans Am for $17,500. In 1992 I bought a fairly decent 75K mile 1969 roadrunner for $3K (built 375 gross hp). It would have been a decent race in a straight line. Now that $3K roadrunner is worth $15K-$20K. And that 1993 Trans Am if it had the same 22K miles? Would probably be $10K or less. Things change. I'd possibly buy that TA back today....but not the roadrunner.

speedychevy

A lot of great input all around and I really appreciate the continued discussion. I happen to be traveling this week and will be passing by the city where the firehawk is located so I'm planning on stopping to take a look. It cant hurt and if it ends up being a good deal I might consider it. I will be leery going in, but after all it will be a daily driver vehicle. The owner is an older gentleman and he seemed honest as well. He told me upfront about the history of the paint and not many sellers on craigslist will be that honest. But still, it's difficult to ignore the facts surrounding this car

RPM WS6 I have a very similar mindset about the situation. A slightly higher mileage WS6 and even a TA with a WS6 hood would suffice. The only thing is that I see a lot of these cars in the 40-70k mile range with owners trying to get low to mid teens as well. It's hard to find an unmolested examples of these cars in a good price range so I know to act on a good deal when I see it. I'm hoping I wont be looking for much longer because as the weather gets warmer, prices go up.

Luckily where I work has a parking deck so it'll stay out of the sun for the most part. And I don't live in a climate that sees much winter weather at all, and when we do it ends up being a work from home day. All in all it will be well cared for but the nature of daily driving can take its toll on cars.

I'm also surprised that no one on here has tried to talk me into getting a beater car as a DD. I went to an auto show today and I saw a quote that read "life is too short to drive boring cars" and that's been my mindset thus far in life

Firebrian

It's not that beater Firebirds would be boring. But, high mileage (100K+) and ratty cars might end up taking a lot of your time and $$ to keep things fixed. The odds suggest that you won't have near as many issues with a much lower mileage car. You want it to be your reliable DD...not routinely in the shop for repairs. I wouldn't try to talk anyone into a high mileage beater unless I had first hand knowledge of that car for most of its life....and that the care was relatively good. Another way of putting it is that the high mileage premiums are too small to ignore. Used car values tend to be heavily driven by cosmetic condition and mileage. Older model year cars with low mileage car don't get much respect in the price guides.....which is great for those of us who like to buy such cars. I enjoyed my '98 Z28 at 115K miles as much as I did at 22K miles...and still on the original suspension, exhaust, and drivetrain...it only had brakes and tires done along with fluid/filter changes, probably plugs but I don't recall for sure. I never even changed the fuel filter on that car.

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

http://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/cto/5533055054.html

What would you look for in a daily driver Trans Am?

-Original interior
-Original paint, garage kept
-Somewhere between 40 and 70K miles
-New or newer original size 275/40/17 tires with date codes around 2014
-A clutch or master cylinder that has been replaced
-Clean engine bay
-Brakes that have been replaced
-Window and headlamp motors been replaced
-Some minor modifications such as exhaust, headers

speedychevy

The plan right now is go take a look at the Firehawk tomorrow. I wont be making a decision on it then, but if everything with the car checks out what would be a good price point for it?

I believe he has the carfax report as well so I might be able to get an idea about the vehicle's history. He seems negotiable so I'm thinking the closer I can get to 10k the better.

Also, what original documentation came with Firehawks?

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

That Firehawk you are going to look at is a creampuff for 54,000 miles. From the photos, there is no wear on the seat bolsters, floor mats, paint looks to be in very good condition and has shine, the wheels don't look they are flaking, no service engine soon light.

Need to see what the engine bay looks like, but his asking price is not obscene like in AutoTrader.

Firebrian

I'm rusty on what came with Firehawks for documentation. But there was a paper package you should expect to get. The Firehawk code WU6 should show up on the door jamb as well. The Firehawk.org website can give you some help. They have message boards as well as a "for sale" section. So you can see what member have been asking and getting for their vehicles. I think your car is in the $13K-$14K range....and $15K is not unfair. I doubt you'll be able to get that for $10K-$12K. Some consider the FH worth a 5-10% premium over the WS6. It varies person to person. Some might want to pay less for a FH vs. a WS6. I think they're worth the premium.

http://firehawk.org/

This guy is willing to pay $13K-$15K for a 1999 FH with under 45K miles. So that would suggest to me a 2002 is $14.5K and up.

http://messageboard.firehawk.org/vie...hp?f=4&t=12789

I looked back through 5 months of sell ads on that site and as expected, 80-90% of the ask prices are in La-La Land. The buyers and sellers couldn't be further apart. I read a second buy ad for a fellow looking for a 2002 M6 FH black (or nice color) with the Batwing air intake and dual/dual exhaust. Only stipulations are under 110,000 miles and a max of $12K. Frankly, a 50K mile car for $15K is a FAR better value than one with 100K miles. But there's a buyer's number posted at $12K. The intake and exhaust might add another $500+ to the value. If your FH is equipped as such, add $500.

I watched this 2002 FH A4 with 22K miles drop in price from $19,500 to $17,000 before it finally sold. I believe it was white. Claimed to have $2,000 in stereo work + fresh tires. All good. I think it sold to a dealer in Florida who promptly relisted it for low $20's. Subtract $2.5K for 30K miles less, and another $1K-$1.5K for not having an M6 ($-3.5K)...and it would put your car at about $13.5K in comparison.

http://messageboard.firehawk.org/vie...hp?f=4&t=12555

In July 2015 there was a 21K mile 2002 red M6 Firehawk that bid up to a "sold" $13,600 on Ebay. I had a gut feel that was a bogus auction since the seller was a performance dealer. Months later I saw an eerily similar car for sale in NY? for $18K or so. The first seller was only 40 miles from me but I just had a feeling it was either a scam or a stolen vehicle....or someone was at the right spot at the right time and got a rip.

Firebrian

Firehawk Commemorative Portfolio:

This Commemorative Portfolio is designed to hold your GM owners manual and the supplemental SLP owner's manual. Includes an SLP engraved pen, notepad, tire tread depth gauge, a customized "Certificate of Authenticity" and "Vehicle Specifications Card". (The customized package will be shipped by SLP to the customer after the customer completes and returns an information form included in the vehicle's supplemental SLP owner's manual.) This all-new keepsake portfolio is designed to store your Pontiac owner's manual along with SLP's supplemental Firehawk manual. The portfolio includes a pen and notepad along with a key chain holder which doubles as a tire tread gauge. An enclosed Vehicle Specifications Card provides you with quick reference on your vehicles specifications, service information, as well as important Pontiac, SLP, and dealer contact information. To further document your vehicle, we'll send you a Certificate of Birth for your Firehawk that identifies you as the adopting parent. The Certificate also includes the official date of birth, your vehicles footprint, and other vehicle delivery specifics.

http://messageboard.firehawk.org/vie...hp?f=4&t=12523

The above seller had a 43K mile 2002 A4. Started off at $18,900 and was down to $14,900 by mid-2015. Don't know if it sold. Figure if it were an M6 it would have fetched at least $1K more than they got for the A4.

http://messageboard.firehawk.org/vie...hp?f=4&t=12414

The above 2000 white M6 with 19K miles looks to have sold last year at $17K or a tad under. The carsonline.com link is still active so you can see photos of it. I suspect it probably sold in the $16's. Let's assume $16,500. $1500 for 2 model year's adjustment offset by $2500 in lower mileage. So at most, this car was worth $1.5K more than your 50K mile one....figure then $15K on yours. Lots of hits in that $14K-$15K range.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/general-l...r-today-2.html

Let's not forget forum member Usnfenix who just last month "scored" a 1998 red WS6 A4 with 40K miles for $9,000. Now that's a deal hard to beat. Occasionally you get that worm.

Yellowferrari

im in the market for a 02 ws6 t top and firehawk and im seeing them advertised sometimes double of kbb,theres a 02 firehawk auto t top 88k miles asking 18k and imo thats too much.i would go as high as 14k for the firehawk and than theres another ws6 with 115k miles i would go as high as 7500 am i being realistic

Yellowferrari

i agree many owners doest bother me

speedychevy

I didn't get a chance to see the car because I guess it sold. The owner didn't answer any of my calls despite leaving a few messages. Kind of a crappy way to blow off interested buyers. So no update on the firehawk. oh well...

Firebrian

Apparently $15K or so was a good price. If the seller had another interested party who actually saw the car, he might not have considered calling you until that potential buyer was dealt with. Money talks and someone came along with it. Once the car is gone it's not the seller's responsibility to update all potential buyers. He's done. Though, I admit it would be a nice gesture. Anyone really interested in that car called up the guy....and then made an appointment to see it if they liked what they heard. Everyone else is just kicking tires looking for a rip. Anytime I've tried to sell an old classic muscle car or one of these later LT1/LS1 cars, I always got half a dozen to a dozen calls, nearly all tire kickers looking to pay 25% under market, and the rest only interested in "talking" about the cars they love, with no interest in buying. I'd bet some of them were sellers trying to see how I was making out. The one person that actually showed up to look, usually bought the car, as it was priced to sell.

If you do run across one of those lower 10-15% cars, don't hesitate, because they usually don't hang around long once the price is right. I hesitated on a 2000 M6 Firehawk formula with 28K miles back in 2011 priced at $12K, and only 1 of 6 or so built in that color. It's the lowest price I've seen for a low mileage hawk. It was dead of winter and I thought about it for a week....then it was gone.

Yellowferrari, ignore those 2X KBB price tags of Firehawks. Those are just there to make the sellers "feel good." I'd bet most of them have no intention of selling....unless someone is willing to pay through the nose. I gave you some real world 2015 sale examples from the Firehawk club site. And $17K got someone a clean 20-25K mile M6 Hawk. Ignore the upper 85% of price listings. It's only the bottom 10-15% that have a chance to sell.

speedychevy

I found a 99 firehawk for sale. It only has 40k miles but it was in an accident back in 2001. The owner is asking less than 10k for it and the title is still clean and clear. From the sound of things it seems like it was only body damage.

Biggest problem in my eyes is that it's an automatic. I could see myself driving it for a little while and then trying to flip it.

Firebrian

That would normally be around a $13K car if accident free. As long as the title is not salvaged. But the accident on the CarFax/AutoCheck will scare away 90% of potential buyers. They will just look elsewhere. Even so, a properly rebuilt salvage title will bring 60-70% of the original car value. Minor body damage would be nice. These kinds of car always seem to be looking for a permanent home that rarely comes. The dealers get to flip it every 1-2 years.

speedychevy

That's a fair assessment. Although I feel like with so many outrageously priced f bodys on the market, especially the "rare" and "collectible" firehawks everyone has, some buyers might be willing to go for a nice low mileage factory original with minor accident history 15 years ago. At least that's my mindset at the moment.