speedychevy

I am looking to purchase a Trans Am in the very near future that will become my daily driver. There are a few cars I'm looking into and I was hoping to get a second opinion.

Car 1:
2002 Trans Am WS6 with 25k original miles
one owner car
other than minor chips and blemishes to the paint, it is a very clean car

Car 2:
2002 Firehawk w/ 54k miles
4 owner car
Current owner made mention of paint that had faded in a couple of areas, but had since been touched up.
minor chips in paint and blemishes in paint but a very clean car


Both owners are looking to get around 15k, but the firehawk owner seems much more willing to deal. But it being a 4 owner car with a history of paint issues makes me almost want to back off completely. Both are 100% stock as well.

I am looking to pay around 12k for something, and I would probably go as high as 13k for the WS6. Keep in mind I am going to DD the Sh*t out of this car so maybe a better deal on the hawk is the way to go? Thoughts and opinions are much appreciated. Thanks!

speedychevy

here's the hawk

Firebrian

The Firehawk is probably fully priced at retail for over 50K miles. I normally wouldn't expect significant paint issues at those few miles. Even assuming the Firehawk is worth an extra 10-20% over a WS6, that is completely offset by the mileage difference. A lot of buyers don't even know what a FH is and won't pay any premium for one of them...and they don't look as cool as a WS6 to most prospective buyers.

I don't think that comparison is even close. I'd go with the 1 owner TA with much lower mileage, assuming the owner can show you the maintenance/care performed on that car....otherwise, why have 1 owner? If it's now owned by a dealer, you might not be able to verify how it was driven and cared for. I'd consider a 2002 WS6 automatic with 25K miles to be worth in the $13K-$15K range assuming very nice condition. $15K is possibly a tad strong for a WS6 automatic but would be a decent deal on an M6. I can't say $15K is not fair, I'd just rather pay $14K or even $13's. Your typical WS6 automatic for $12K would probably be a 2002 with 50K-60K miles or 1998-1999 with 30K-40K miles. I had a local 1999 red Firehawk automatic with 38K miles available for $13K...and it took months to sell. That was a well-cared for car.

Even daily driving that WS6 you can still care for the paint and undercarriage....assuming you aren't daily driving in winter storms/slush/salt. 4 owners seems high for only 50K miles....why?.....2 owners, possibly 3 is the most I'd expect. Is all the maintenance history among those 4 owners well-documented? I would doubt it. The lower mileage and better cared for car would support you better for daily driving reliability. I would hope a 1 owner 25K mile WS6 was well-cared for...I'd expect it.

speedychevy

I should have specified that both cars are 6 speeds. The owner of the WS6 claims he's had offers close to his asking price so he seems pretty hardened at the $15k mark, but no one has shown up with cash yet and cash always talks.

What would be a good deal for the hawk if I did go that route? and whats the most someone should pay for the WS6?

JC316

iTrader: (1)

I would take the Hawk in a heartbeat. Only 30K more miles and I just like the looks/rarity of them. I have an 00 WS6, in the past week, I've seen 4 others. I haven't seen an LS1 hawk in YEARS.

speedychevy

That's a fair statement. You don't see hawks all that often and the owner did mention it does have the 1LE suspension upgrade. Would have to verify that in person though. What's the best way to do so?

But the most I would really want to pay for the hawk would be somewhere around 11k. The paint issues in the past and the fact its a 4 owner car really kills the value for me.

Firebrian

You can only go by your heart. Messed up paint on even a 50K mile FH with 1LE is no longer an unmolested collector car. The 6 speeds probably bring the values of both cars up another 10% from what I mentioned above. So $15K for that 25K mile 2002 WS6 is quite fair, probably reasonable. While no doubt you can find one cheaper "somewhere" in the country, being sold by someone who has no clue what they're really worth....what are the odds that you will be that person? And the 30K mile difference between those cars is huge. Though with daily driving, you're going to close that gap.

You won't find too many 25K mile 2002 M6's being sold for under $15K. I'm sure the local tire kickers have tried to bring that guy down to $13K or $14K, maybe even $14.5K. I think it's worth every penny of $15K, especially in black, nbm, or white. The Firehawk is not worth as much to me. But at $12K it would probably be a rip for a 1LE. The 4 owner stuff doesn't appeal to me. You'll be #5 and when you sell, that's #6! Sure you can't find FH's nearby all that often. But if you search across the country, they are out there. I spent some time on the FH club site last year and I recall some mint, lower mileage 6 speeds going for $16K-$18K....10K-25K miles.
I did a search on autotrader.com for any 1998-2002 6 speed Pontiacs (FH, TA, FB) with under 30K miles and $15K or under....there are none in the country listed....never mind 1 owner cars. And from $15K to $20K there are only 4 cars, all from $18K-$20K and only one of them a 2002. Based on asking prices, that guy should be in the $17K-$19K range...not that he will get that. If I were looking for a very low mileage 6 speed, I'd take that one for $15K if everything about it was ok. Automatics will fetch $1500 less, and then $600-$800 less per model year. Even if you picked a "lowly" 1998-1999 WS6 automatic with 25K miles, it would be priced well over $10K. My point is that a 2002 M6 is nicely priced at $15K. 3 years ago I couldn't buy a 1-owner, 14K mile, black 2000 WS6 M6 from my local dealer for $15,500. They wanted $16,500-$17,000. I'd still buy that car if it were available for $15.5K and same mileage. And you have 2 model years (2002) on top of that to negate the 10K mile difference. Big difference in demand in 2002 vs 2000. Look at the Wanted To Buy ads on this forum...."everyone" seems to want a 2001/2002 WS6 M6 in black or SOM....exactly what you have in front of you.

As rare as the FH's might be, there are 10X as many people looking for a WS6 with the aggressive ram air hood and rear spoilers. A lot of people think that the FH's shot themselves in the foot going with a sedate ram air hood and no real spoiler. I'd pay a 5% premium over WS6, but nothing more....at least not unless it was an ultra mint 5K mile car. Those would be up in the mid-$20's. In my mind an SOM WS6 is far more desirable than a black FH in the same condition.

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

Condition and mileage trump rarity and multiple owners. They both are black muscle cars. That means for most people they are a 2nd or 3rd car. When you look at the ads you will typically find that these cars are difficult to sell, the buyer is in the driver's seat.

Take your time and ask questions relating to maintenance records, how it was stored, how new the battery, brakes, tires and plugs are.

It sounds like you are going to increase the mileage on a car you buy. These cars are reliable powertrains so get a decent body and interior.

Firebrian

I disagree about the WS6 with 25K miles being difficult to sell. If I were looking, and it was in my area, it would be gone already. That was the car I was looking for back in 2012 and didn't find for the right price. Similar cars today in dealer lots are priced from $17K-$22K....most of them not moving, because they are over-priced, not that buyers aren't out there looking for them.

And as I showed above, there's not a single such car priced for sale at $15K in the country on autotrader. The only reason that car hasn't sold yet is because of winter along with buyers not yet getting out to see them. As soon as late April and May roll around, properly priced cars get gobbled up. This WS6 should sell this summer for $15K. If I were that guy, I'd raise my price to $16,500 as soon as the warm weather hits. On a 25K mile car I'd expect original plugs and brakes. Those should last a lot longer. The tires likely got replaced already. The factory ones rarely got past 25K miles unless you drove like an old lady. I replaced my orig tires in 2014 with 15K miles only because they were 15 years old...they still had 40% tread life left...no cracks. Hopefully, all the fluids have been changed at least once. Though it wouldn't surprise me one bit if you still had factory fill on coolant, and trans-clutch-brake-diff fluids.

This WS6 is exactly what most first time WS6 M6 buyers would be looking for (2001/2002 WS6, M6, black or SOM, 1 owner, low miles....it rarely gets any better than that)....and it's priced right to boot. If you don't think so, go find me another similar 1 owner car for $15K or less. Some buyers might want to pay more for a 5K-15K mile toy knowing they will sell it with few miles being added....and its value as a low mile collector car will be maintained. That's their choice, those will cost $17K and up. To me, that FH will be a tougher sell at $15K. It doesn't appeal to me at all at that price. Won't that 1LE suspension on the FH only make that car much less enjoyable for daily driving duties?

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/Used+Cars/cars+between+15000+and+30000/Pontiac/Firebird/East+Lyme+CT-06333?endYear=2002&engineCode=8CLDR&engineCodes=8C LDR&firstRecord=0&listingType=used&listingTypes=us ed&makeCode1=PONT&maxMileage=30000&maxPrice=30000& minPrice=15000&mmt=[PONT[FBIRD[]][]]&modelCode1=FBIRD&photosOnlyActual=true&pricesOnly =true&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=0&showcaseO wnerId=0&sortBy=mileageDESC&startYear=1998&transmi ssionCode=MAN&transmissionCodes=MAN&Log=0

JC316

iTrader: (1)

I don't get the mindset behind not liking multiple owners. If the car is solid, I don't give a crap how many people have had it. If it's ragged out, then I can see the issue.

Firebrian

So, you're saying you'd see no difference if this Firehawk had 1 owner or 4 owners? You'd value the car the same and pay the same price? Unless you have a very detailed documented history of the 3 previous owners, how do you know what they did to and with the car? You can't talk to them. You also have 4 different styles of driving....3 of which you can't cross-examine. I'd bet some of them pounded on the car. There's a reason when a low mileage passenger car racks up numerous owners in only 50K miles. And the reasons usually aren't good. I could see an ultra-low mileage, mint collector car like a Berger SS or DEI with 500-3K miles being handed back and forth between collectors that get bored with it after a couple of years. But that's not what we have here. It's nice to be able to talk to a 1st and 2nd owner and get the low down on a vehicle. By the time you get to 4th and 5th owners a lot can be lost in translation on what they really did.

Sure, for a 1969 Hemi Plymouth GTX I'd sort of expect 4-10 owners over that 47 year time period. And I don't expect that on a 2002 Firehawk with 50K miles. That's not the norm by any means. Most are 1, 2 or sometimes 3 owners. You can certainly find a gem with 4 owners. This Firehawk could be such a gem. But I can't see it in person to judge it. I can only go by photos and the 4 owners, which suggests that it's very likely in the bottom 25% of all similar 50K mile cars. I would buy it in a heartbeat if it were a 4 owner gem..."priced right." But, you're swimming upstream figuring that's what you're going to get. 4 owners is more inline with 100K mile cars. Though I sold my 1998 Z28 in 2009 with 115K miles, and I was 2nd owner when I got it with 22K miles. At least prospective buyers could talk to the guy who put the last 80% of the miles on that car. Generally, 1-2 owner cars tend to be less abused than 4-6 owner cars, at least for 4th gen F bodies. There always exceptions. Identical condition cars, one with 1 owner, the other with 4.... the 1 owner car will always bring more money and be more desirable. How many 1 owner, lower mileage 2002 collector cars like WS6's tend to be abused and beat on by their owners? I've yet to see one.

speedychevy

All very good points made and great info. Firebrian you really do your due diligence on these threads and I appreciate all the input. IMO too many cars are way overpriced on auto trader though. Not the best tool to assess the market for these cars.

I agree if a car is solid overall despite multiple owners it's still a good car. Especially for a car that's going to be driven all the time and not become some garage queen. The multiple owners doesn't bother me as much as it does for others. But it's still difficult to ignore the fact that this car has changed hands 4 times over the course of 50k miles. That doesn't really add up.

Also, why would a vehicle with a 1LE suspension not make a great DD?

Firebrian

That's why I look at the cars priced in the bottom 20% of similarly listed ones. The upper 80% are over-priced. And when I find car like this WS6, which doesn't even have a single comparable car priced at less money, then it's almost certainly priced fairly...assuming the condition is as described. The ads are a good tool for buying and estimating value if you look at the cheapest listed prices.

I would think the 1LE would be overall stiffer and less-forgiving when driving. You'll feel all the imperfections in the roads. My daily driver '98 Z28 came with smaller tires and slightly looser suspension than my '99 SS. Big difference in road feel and harshness. I would think the 1LE would be one additional step higher in severity. My Z28 was a joy to drive on longer trips...not as much so as the SS which pounds you on every little bump and bulge in the road. If you want road and track course feel and handling when driving to and from work, then the 1LE can work. Never had a 1LE so no personal experience to draw from.

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

http://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/5485886639.html

http://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/5502142047.html

http://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/5530412892.html

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/ctd/5486867166.html

http://www.vichuntsmanautosales.com/...in-Franklin-KY

http://www.autofind.com/dealer/detai.../#.VwnFnjjmqUk

http://youngstown.craigslist.org/ctd/5513787528.html

http://westmd.craigslist.org/cto/5501063059.html

http://cnj.craigslist.org/cto/5484615972.html

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/m...529737750.html

http://southbend.craigslist.org/cto/5488770864.html

Be patient, plenty of these cars were made. It is a buyer's market and always be on the look out for a one owner vehicle in great condition that is reasonably priced. You have to be ready with cash to inspect the car and make the deal.

For me, too low of mileage scares me off. These are mechanical pieces of machinery and they need to be run. Sitting in a garage, being cold started once in a while is one sure way to ruin an engine.

JC316

iTrader: (1)

Yes, I would value the car the same and pay the same price, regardless of how many owners it's had. I'm buying a car, not it's owners. First off, it was a dirt cheap sports car, I don't give a crap who owned it, it's been beat on at some point in it's life.

Secondly, everybody lies, especially people that are trying to sell you something. They lie about it's condition, how it was treated, etc. I go in knowing that when the seller breathes, the air comes out crooked. I don't believe a single word they say, instead I look the car over for myself.

Lastly, not matter how good the service history is, no matter how documented it is, crap happens. My dad just bought a diesel truck. Had low miles for a diesel, service records, clean as hell, etc. Three weeks later, it went from running perfect, to dying on the freeway. I am elbow deep in it replacing the injection pump. No way the previous owner could have seen this coming.

Oh and the reason for multiple owners is simple, the economy went into the toilet after 02. People that bought it couldn't make the payments and it went from person to person.

speedychevy

That's fair. I currently drive an 01 SS and I get what you mean about a stiffer suspension. I feel every bump in the road so I'm used to it. One of my first upgrades I would look to do on a trans am would be to update the suspension with more modern components so I guess the 1LE suspension option doesn't matter to me all that much. I hear great things about suspension mods so it'll be near the top of my list of things to do.

And I agree that 15k is a far price, but it's just out of my price range at the moment. And I think if the owner did a better job marketing the car he would have a better shot at selling it for the price he wants. He speaks broken english so it's been difficult to get a lot of info about the car.

speedychevy

Wow. A lot of good finds. Sacramento looks like its a buyers market for low mileage TA's. That mecham WS6 is an interesting find...

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I wouldn't be willing to pay the premium for the 25k mile car if I was simply going to daily drive it, thereby quickly negating that for which I've paid the premium. That's not to say that I'd want to buy junk either, but if the 54k mile car can be had for several thousand less and is in the proper condition that a 54k mile/14 year old car should be, then I'd be moving in that direction.

I agree completely on both counts. If the engine and tune is stock, and the car hasn't had any fluke sensor failures (or anything else that would cause serious A/F issues) that have been left unrepaired for a long period, those stock plugs should be like new and I wouldn't expect them to be changed. I wouldn't consider this neglect either; plug change is not necessary nor beneficial maintenance on such a low mile stock LS1. Unlike fluids, plugs don't go bad from sitting/age alone.

Brakes should still be fine at 25k, unless the car was driven hard or by someone with a bad habit of riding the brakes. My '98 is at 17k and I've had the wheels off within the last 500 miles or so, the factory original brakes look nearly new still. Pad wear is minimal at most. I don't expect that to change excessively in the next ~8k miles. I don't drive the car like an old lady, but I also don't abuse it.

Minus the 1LE option, or any other suspension upgrades ordered from SLP as a Y2Y option, the main reason an SS feels stiffer/more harsh is the 17x9 wheels with 275/40 tires. The only actual suspension upgrade from the factory on a base SS model was a 32mm front sway bar (base V8 models had 30mm.) I've heard claims that the '98 and some early '99 SS/WS6 models came with 1LE springs stock (but not the 1LE/Koni shocks of course), but I've seen no hard proof of this myself. I can tell you that my 2000 WS6, which I purchased brand new with 3 miles on it, did not come with 1LE springs - and the factory DeCarbon shocks it wore were the same as my various Z28s. And base SS received the same items as WS6 in this regard.

I put 17" SS wheels with 275/40 tires on two of my Z28s, and this made a noticeable difference (increase) in harshness and overall road feel with no other changes.

Firehawk received the same spoiler as a WS6 car, model for model. Some Firehawks were Formulas, some were Trans Ams (also true for WS6), and it was that model selection (Formula vs. TA) that determined spoiler type, not Firehawk vs. WS6. The exceptions to this were convertible models (FH or WS6, whether Formula or TA, all received the lower spoiler), and the Firehawks that were ordered with one of the two optional spoilers that SLP offered during the LS1 Firehawk years (one was called "old lumpy" and had a very small 3rd brake light, the other had a long 3rd brake light that ran almost the full length of the spoiler....I think this was called the IROC spoiler.)

I can agree, to a point. It really all depends on just how low the mileage is, and if it was properly cared for during storage - obviously you can't ever know the latter for sure. Some guys just put a car away and rarely touch it over the course of 15-20 years, leaving fluids like coolant untouched and doing the whole "cold start, 10 minutes of idling" thing thinking that this is somehow a good idea. Those cars might have some issues. On the other hand, if the car has been driven at least a few hundred miles per year and the owner has some log of fluid changes then I wouldn't be too worried. For my own, I maintain it properly as a seldom driven vehicle and I've been rewarded with no issues or problems brought on by such limited usage.

I have to agree with Firebrian on this point. I definitely care about ownership history on a car as modern/relatively new as this. If it was something ancient and fully restored it might not really matter, but in the case of an original ~15 year old car, it's a little more indicative of what sort of care the car has likely received. A one owner car of this age was probably something really special to its owner and likely treated as such, and that's less likely to be true with 4 owners. I wouldn't necessarily dismiss the car due to number of owners, but I've looked at enough used cars in the ~10-15 year old age range to know that the nicer ones are almost always those with two or less owners. And I will certainly pay more for a nicer one.

After '02? Not sure where you lived then, but this wasn't the case in my region. The economy was booming during the housing bubble of the mid-2000s. Toilet status wasn't reached until ~2008 and beyond.

NC01TA

If anyone cares, one more point, and the economy argument is not accurate. The market tanked in '08. The bear market was confirmed in June 2008 and the DJIA hit a market low around 6,400 in March 2009. Unfortunately I remember this far too well seeing our IRA's dwindle to next to nothing.
The collector car market was extremely strong right before the crash happened so perhaps the Firehawk was 'flipped' a few times. That could explain the multiple owners but I sure would need to know the history. I kind of doubt it though with those miles unless they were put on in the past few years. A Carfax would tell you that story. In most cases multiple owner cars are multiple owner cars for a reason, from being an unreported lemon to any number of issues. I wouldn't touch a 4 owner car unless it was 20+ years old and even then I would be leery. That's my advice to friends and family so I share it here for anyone else that respects or wants an experienced owner/collector opinion.
The one owner car in this instance is the one to go after, especially if you want a mostly trouble free car for your daily driving needs. While the seller is most likely full of BS with his 'many offers' I would still try to get this WS6 if it's described accurately. $15k is an asking price and if you show up in the owners driveway with $14k in one hundred dollar bills, you'll probably be driving home in it. This would be the scenario 9 out of 10 times. There are always sellers that won't budge so let them sit on the car for months and months. That's their problem.
Best of luck!!

Firebrian

That's a nice list posted by 70T/A400. Thing is, I checked them ALL. 10 out of 11 of those cars are not comparable in the least to the OP's 2002 WS6 M6. Only 3 out of 11 are manuals. You can't compare 1998-2000 WS6 automatics or especially Trans Am automatics to a 2001/2002 WS6 M6, there can easily be a market spread of $5K between those two, even with the same low mileage. Those 11 listings only proved my point further. 10 of 11 were $16K-$20K and none of them were a 2001/2002 WS6 M6 with 25K or less miles....and only one (a 2000) at or under the $15,000 asking price. Add $2K-$4K to the price of nearly all of those to adjust for model years (-$700 per each model year lower), not WS6 (-$1500) , or not 6 speed (-$1500). Every car on that list was either one of the 3 earlier years if an M6, an automatic if 2001/2002, or higher miles, or a higher price.....or up to all 4 of those. In other words....apples vs. oranges.

Yes, there are a lot of "nice" WS6 's out there for sale at any time...but not like the OP's 1-owner M6 priced at $15K. This car is priced in the lower 5-10% of the current offerings. That's what I look for when searching a good value. I agree that it's a "buyer's" market for those other 80-90% of cars. For those priced in the bottom 10%....that's first come, first serve to pick up the correctly priced car or a bargain. Usually the early bird gets that worm. There's 1 car on that list of 11 above that's priced RIGHT, assuming it is a WS6. It won't last either. The other 10 will sit a while. One thing bugs me about that WestMd car priced right....a Craig's List ad w/o any description except WS6, 35K miles, "beautiful," and the price. That already sounds a bit fishy to me as most "loving" owners would be a bit more descriptive to help sell their car that just a "6 word" ad! Then again, I'm a skeptic when it comes to most car ads.

The OP's car is still priced right. The requirements: 2001/2002, WS6 only, M6 only, 25K miles or less, $15,000 or less, and preferably a 1-owner car. I would note that of those 11, the 2000 WS6 M6 with 35K miles at $12,500 was probably almost comparable in "value" to the OP's car. It would be more suited to their daily driver status. If I adjust that 2000 for miles and model years (+$3K), it would be net priced to within $500 of the OP's car. Not comparable though. But nearly as good a value. And that car at $12,500 will not last assuming 1-2 owner and clean. I wouldn't be surprised if that car is a Trans Am with a WS6 and wheels added. That happens a lot with what at first appears to be a bargain (ie a Z28 or WS6 that are cloned up to be SS/WS6).

Sorry to bring out RPMWS6 to correct some of my errors in Firehawks, suspensions, etc. It's good that he's here to keep things 100% accurate. From what I've seen, the less aggressive hood of the Firehawk turns away a lot of potential buyers who are also looking at WS6's. I do agree with RPMWS6 that the Firehawk is probably the better buy for a daily driver if you can get it for $12K or thereabouts....and can be sure that all 4 owners lovingly cared for the car the same. But I doubt that's gonna be the case. If both cars are at $15K, the WS6 is a no brainer to me. If in the next 6 to 12 months you no longer like the WS6, it would not be that hard to find another owner for what you paid. I don't think you'd be buried in that car at $15K. It's easier to find nice cars in the $13K-$16K range. Down at $10K-$12K it becomes a lot tougher to find clean and wholesome WS6's. You just might have to be patient, as in waiting a couple years to find it. I think the owner has under-priced their WS6 at $15K...at least for what the hotter areas of the country bring in summer time. I think they have it priced like a 35K-40K mile vehicle....so those miles are in you're pocket from the start.

If $12K is your price range you might want to look down at the 1998-2000 models that come a lot cheaper. If it's just the drive train and performance you're after, then consider the Chevy Camaro's as well, they will be even cheaper. A 1999 Z28/SS M6 with 35K-50K miles can probably be had for $10K-$11K, maybe less. The automatics even cheaper at $8K-$9K.

As far as the car markets go I was in the collector car market from 1991-2004 and I never saw a drop in prices from 2000-2003 as that recession hit. Maybe things were stagnant or slow, but I didn't see prices drop. Prices peaked in fall of 2007 right along with the stock market, but the floor didn't fall out from under things until around Sept 2008 into 2009. The car market remained slumped over from 2009-2011. And since then it's sort of bounced back or held steady through most of 2015.