Jason E

So this is fun, because I already bought it...but wondering what people think its worth?

10 days ago, I found on Ebay with 4 hours left, a 28k mile 02 Formula Firehawk I sold 17 years ago as a brand new car. I ordered it for dealer inventory, debated on buying it when it came in, and sold it to the couple that bought it. There are many times I kicked myself for not buying it over the past 17 years, and I had every intention of buying a Formula Hawk in 3 more years when my CTS V is paid off. Well, when I saw this for sale, I moved that timeline forward because how could I NOT buy the exact car I'd missed out on 17 years ago???? A car that only exists because I ordered it for dealer stock?

Details...
-2002 Formula Firehawk #945.
-Red on black cloth
-6 speed
-Only GM option is the Hurst shifter

The SLP second sticker totals $6,600, and includes the base Firehawk package plus...
-Bilstein suspension
-Chrome wheels
-SLP mats (missing the front mats, have the trunk mat)
-Firehawk car cover

The car has 29k miles, and is nearly flawless. It still has new car smell inside. Only mod is a Flowmaster that replaced the original SLP exhaust The good news is have an OEM dual dual that came with my 2000 SS the previous owner of that car took off...so that will go on the Firehawk. I don't think he used the original wheels and tires, as the tires have a 3/02 date code and have near full tread. The chrome wheels have virtually no brake dust on the inside. Its as close to "new" as I can think of, and is remarkable given it has 29k on it.

So what's it worth?? I'll reveal what I paid after some comments...

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

In recent years we've seen a handful of ~20-30k mile M6 Formulas sell for confirmed prices of $10-13k depending on model year and region. And recent sale data on a 450 mile '99 Firehawk was $30k ( https://ls1tech.com/forums/pontiac-f...brand-new.html ) with similar optional content to yours. In your case, being an '02 is certainly desirable (plus it comes stock with a Blackwing). If we give it a 30% premium (for the Firehawk package plus additional optional content) over the highest priced base Formulas of similar mileage and trans type, that would land it near $17k - then I'd say a 10% +/- adjustment for regional pricing and maintenance status. So, ~$15,500-18,500 would probably be the sweet spot depending on location and presentation. Considering the mileage (29k miles is well beyond the limits of #1 condition/top tier collector status for an F-body that's only 17 years old) and relatively neutral demand for the color (vs. something in high demand like SOM), I would expect the ceiling on something like this to be in the upper teens.

But, having said that, you certainly can't assign an objective value to your personal history with this specific car. Arguably, the most important part of this hobby is the emotional aspect, and a story like yours carries intangible value of great subjective significance. With that in mind, I think it's fantastic that you were able to take advantage of the second chance opportunity with this same car.

Jason E

Thanks for the comments...was hoping you would weigh in. That 99 you posted was on cars-on-line.com for a few years...I looked at it all the time. I figured it was worth close to the $30k he was asking for it, and it appears he got it.

I paid 18 for this car. I estimated its value the same way you did...assuming upper teens. I put in a high bid of 20 just because I didn't want to lose this particular car for obvious reasons..but I know it wasn't "worth" that much just yet. 18 was the reserve, and at the end I was uncontested. I've never bought a car off eBay before, and had a ton of reservations but it worked out good.

I agree 29k miles is significant mileage compared to some Firehawks...but I am blessed that the original owner must have OCD like me. Other than a couple tiny stone chips in the nose, its literally a new car. The doors are tight. It still smells new, like my dad's 12k mile 02 Formula. It drives like a new one...I think overall it might be tighter than my 19k mile SS, if that is possible. That car is just about flawless as well.

Again, thanks for your input. I figured I didn't steal it, and didn't overpay. The miles will creep up while I enjoy it and it still gains value anyway. I have my WS6 for the primary purpose of having an F body to drive and enjoy 5k miles a year while the Firehawk and WS6 will be preserved for years to come, driven about 1k each...

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

If the car really is that nice and needs nothing, then I think you did just fine on the price - especially considering the personal history you have with this car which can't be duplicated. I do occasionally encounter examples in the ~20-30k mile range that seem to present more like a car with 4-digit mileage. So it seems that there are a few of us with extreme OCD when it comes to detailing and overall care on these low mileage, but still street driven, cars; I've tried to do the same with my own 18k mile example.

Formula Firehawks certainly don't grow on trees, and they were the only special upgrade "performance" edition offered on Formula in those later years after the WS6 package was dropped from the Formula trim level at the end of the 2000 model year. Certainly a cool car to add to any 4th gen collection.

Again, I just have to say that I think your story with this car is great. On a personal note, my '98 Z28 is a sort of changeling for my first brand new car ('99 Z28) which I only kept for a year. About 4 years later I hunted for a very specific replacement as a "do-over", something so similar and familiar that I could relive and retain the experience of the first one which I'd sold. It was much easier to find super low mile examples back then, but still took some time because I was so picky about options and condition/mileage (not many folks were worried about keeping a lowly Z28 in such high level condition). ~15 years later I still have the car and am still in love with it, but it's not anywhere near as significant as your story with this Firehawk. For an enthusiast, these emotional connections are what really bring lasting happiness with a given car.

Jason E

Put it this way. This purchase is my 10th F body. I will keep it the rest of my life, along with my SS. The memories and emotional connections with both cars are huge for me. With the Firehawk, I remember ordering all 11 Firehawks we had in 2002. I went through the orders over and over before submitting, specing each car a specific way. With the Formula Hawks, I left out leather and Auburn rear ends to allow for a larger price differential between them and the Trans Am Hawks. I remember the day this car came in, and literally 3 days later, as I was debating whether to buy it, I got the phone call from the eventual owner, asking if we still had it in stock. I was heartbroken because I wanted it, but had to sell my 3 cars (97 Z28, 89 Formula and 95 Grand Am) to buy it. I would've been stuck driving a $500 car to bang around in. I didn't like that idea. Later, I regretted it...ESPECIALLY when all the final 2002 production numbers came out and I discovered how rare the Formula Hawks were. I knew they would be rare, but not 167 units rare. I ordered only 2...this car and its twin in Navy.

The car literally is perfect, and came with the original tires still mounted with about 90% tread. I replaced them yesterday and kept the originals. I believe he had 2 sets of wheels and tires, because the wheels are flawless and don't even have any brake dust on the inside of them! I am tinting the windows primarily to protect the interior on the rare occasion its outside parked...otherwise, it isn't being modded further. He added a skip shift elminator, SLP smooth bellows, and a Flowmaster I am removing and replacing with the OEM SLP dual dual I have from my SS that the original owner removed from that car.

What excites me the most is when I was 21, in the summer of 2001, the dealership put faith in a college kid that was selling cars for them part time, and let me order 5 Firebirds. I convinced them, after selling 1 Firebird in 2 years, that with 2002 we needed to celebrate the end of the run. I'd been an F body geek since a toddler. All 5 I originally ordered (V6 5 speed, Formula M6, TA M6, WS6 A4, Firehawk M6) came in by September 15th. Know what?

They all sold by October 1st...and I had free reign to do what I wanted for the rest of the year By the end, this store that had sold 1 in two years sold 34 2002 models. I didn't stock the ubiquitous black WS6s every other store had, with nothing else to show. I ordered 10 Formulas...1, an SOM M6 example with 12k, my father purchased from me and still has. I ordered 11 Firehawks, and only that 1 WS6. Why? I hated the hood. Even though I own a 99 WS6 now, I still don't like it like a Firehawk. I ordered every color under the sun...6 speeds, automatics, a convertible here and there. I even ordered a Firebird GT from SLP...the only one I've ever seen. Ironically, my father's car was the lone SOM car because my sales manager HATED SOM. I didn't order a single CETA because I hated the yellow. It wasn't bright like Millenium Yellow...that soft yellow did nothing for me.

I've been in the business now for 19 years...and the most fun I ever had was ordering those Firebirds. We became known as the F body dealer around town, and attracted a lot of attention...which is how my own 2000 SS came to be in our inventory in 2003. I chased it for 9 years before I was able to buy it finally in 2012, with only 10k miles on it at that time. Sorry for the long post...but you're very astute in determining this car has a lot more value to me than just being any old Firehawk. For me its THE Firehawk...the one that got away, and I stumbled across 17 years later after spending years feeling guilty for not buying it. I'm even having a sign and decal shop down the street recreate the dealer sticker for the back bumper, by scanning the one still on my father's car after all these years.

Can't put a price on any of this

bnorth

That's a great story, thanks for sharing and enjoy that Hawk!

Nathan C

Hard to believe a dealership only sold one firebird in 2 years but glad they let you order as many as they did. Are you a small dealership?
I remember picking up my 2002 formula on August 8 2002 that I still own. Like you, it will never be sold. Congrats on getting the hawk! Pictures?

Jason E

Nathan,
In New England, most dealers didn't stock new F bodies. They didn't sell well in later years. The only one we sold in 00-01 was a special order black WS6 6 speed convertible. That fact was why it was so hard to get them to let me order the original 5. Then, once they were moving? It was like a windfall.

I haven't loaded any pics into my Photobucket account yet to post on here...but here is the eBay link...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-Pontia...72.m2749.l2649

Whats the details on your Formula? My dad's is SOM on black cloth, 6 speed Hurst and chrome wheels...only 12k on his.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

The more details I read about Jason E's story, the better it gets. I agree with the above, thanks for sharing and thanks for including all the background, I really did enjoy reading it.

Haha, I know this is probably the least important detail of your entire post, but I couldn't help noticing it. I don't believe I've heard anyone mention a Firebird GT in at least 15 years. And I, too, have seen only one - it was being sold used on a Chevrolet lot in Grayslake, IL circa 2003. It's one of those things which so rarely comes up that you almost forget it ever existed until someone mentions it, then distant memories begin to return.

A close friend of mine did this as well when he restored his '74 'Cuda. It was a nice touch and an interesting point of conversation when any car gets to be several decades old.

The car does look very nice in the Ebay link, it seems that the owner was in fact quite careful with it. I can see some areas where additional detailing could really enhance its presentation, but that's easily taken care of with some time and effort. Overall, the car is a very nice example.

NC01TA

I see that you live in Sarasota. I bought my 1996 Formula off the showroom floor at the old Stinnett Pontiac dealership there. Had it for 9 years. One of the best cars I ever owned with very few issues. Same goes for my current '01 that I also bought new, but in Charlotte, NC after we moved here. I enjoyed your story and feel you paid right for your car. Nice going!

Nathan C

Jason, my formula is black with the ebony leather, factory chrome wheels, tc, and auto transmission. It's my garage queen with 16,000 miles on it. I literally just drive it to the Pontiac Nationals and the trans am Nationals in Ohio every August. My 1999 ta is my normal weekend show car. It looks pretty good for 140,000 miles and I'm not afraid to put some miles on it like I am for my formula.

Jason E

RPM,
Indeed, it does need some detailing, especially under hood. I put a quick coat of wax on it Sunday morning, but need to make time to really go back over the car properly. It won't be a 100 pt show car, but I think it will show nearly-new when I'm done. Same goes for my SS. Both are cleaner than my 9 to 11 year newer 2011 CTS V...granted, that car has slightly more miles than both the F bodies. Glad you enjoyed the story...I can get long winded sometimes, especially when it comes to 3rd and 4th gen F bodies. I'm excited to have a show quality example of both a 4th gen Camaro and Firebird now, and still have an enjoyable part-time driver with my WS6 I can be less neurotic with. While that car has only 47k on it and drives nearly perfect, you can tell that it was more simply someone's car...not someone's OCD obsession like my other 2. The door panels are cracked, the wheels need to be refinished due to some light oxidation, there is surface rust on bolts and lines under hood from being near the coast in Naples FL. I think based on the overall condition of it, it was kept in a carport...not a garage. Its seen more element exposure by far, whereas the other 2 I could detail really good and throw in a showroom. I love driving it, and I don't feel too guilty putting miles on it and modding it a little. Now I have the best of both worlds, and hope to keep the WS6 indefinitely along with the other 2.

NC01,
Thank you!!! Do you remember where in Sarasota the old Pontiac dealer was? Back when you were down here, the dealer I now work for was called Tropical Cadillac Oldsmobile (now Sunset Cadillac of Bradenton...I'm the Internet Sales Manager). I believe Sunset Auto Group at one point owned the Pontiac dealers in both Bradenton and Sarasota.

Nathan,
Sounds like you have a loaded Formula...very nice! My dad's Formula is Sunset Orange with black cloth, and a 6 speed with the Hurst shifter. Nice to see you have a garage queen and 1 to drive more often! I like it that way as well.

In general, now the only question is...which 4 post lift do I buy for my 3 car garage? Its driving me nuts having to leave the WS6 outside until I set aside the funds this winter for a 4 post lift.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

It's easy to get carried away with detailing on these really nice examples. I completely get the whole "OCD" thing, I'm absolutely guilty of that with my '98. 15-20 hour annual detailing with treatment processes for every surface, plus a 2-3 hour "quick" clean-up after any weekend of usage - that's a lot of cleaning for a car that only sees about 300-500 miles per year at this point. The wipers have never been turned on, and I keep the original blades treated with 303 so the rubber is still fresh and perfect. The last time this car saw even a garden hose was April of 2005. Storage and usage conditions are carefully planned and executed without fail. But even with all that prep work, attention to detail, and abundantly cautious use and care, it still only scores 97-98 points at judged events and would probably score even lower at national/concourse level events; 18k miles of street use always leads to some sort of imperfections here and there, you just can't avoid it. To have a true 100/1000 point car, you really can't ever drive it on public roads - just on and off a trailer.

I definitely agree with your program of having examples to "show" and also an example to use as a part time driver. I did that for many years myself, using my '02 Z28 first as a 3-season driver and then eventually as a pure daily driver. The latter was a mistake because the car eventually became "used up" by the elements here in the shitty Great Lakes region, so I eventually sold it. I do very much miss that arrangement though, and would love to put another one in the 3-season driver role again. I'm so picky about my 4th gens though, it's hard for me to find one that's the right balance of nice enough but not TOO nice for this purpose. Going too far in either direction won't give me the desired experience, so I often think about going with a different platform where in-between examples are easier to find (such as Corvette). But there is no denying that 4th gen F-bodies have been my greatest automotive love and my primary focus over the last 20+ years.

I understand your pain about being out of garage spots. I have the same issue, which is another reason why I don't want a driver that's "too nice" to leave outside. My garage is full, but I hope to build or find a bigger one when I move in the not-to-distant future.

NC01TA

@Jason E, right on the southeast corner of Phillippi St and US 41. When Stinnett went out it was still a car dealership but I've forgotten the name. I want to say Sunset Chevy on Bay Rd took them over but I may be mistaken.

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

Jason E. that's a fantastic story thank you for sharing! Sweet looking FireHawk. I think you got a exceptionally nice car at good price.

"sales manager HATED SOM." - that makes me think of Keffer Pontiac in Charlott, North Carolina. Whe I bought my 99 TA they had 25 Trans Am's on the lot. Three colors to choose from red, white or black. No silver, no pewter, navy blue and absolutely no SOM