SICK WS 6

iTrader: (7)

Wasn't that more like 5 cents.
I'd love to wire these speakers like is shown in the top figure you posted. That's how I have my sub run in my other car.
But the stock speaker has 2 sets of leads coming to it. It is not wired the same as that figure shows. It's also not what is shown here.
What it seems like is that it is wired to 2 channels off of the Monsoon amp, each channel running to a separate voice coil? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so...

And I agree with everything that you said in your 3 points regarding subwoofers. But this is about finding an aftermarket replacement speaker for the factory sail panel location. Plug and play if you will.

Also, what would you consider the difference to be between a speaker that is well suited to be used free-air from a speaker that was designed to be used IB?

SidewaysTA

iTrader: (11)

I believe the subs are wired in parallel but in the amp itself.

Mike

SICK WS 6

iTrader: (7)

So both sets of speaker wire are coming from the same channel on the amp?
That's not what is shown on these Houston F-Body tech sheets? This is rather confusing to me.
What it looks like is shown would be similiar to a 4 channel amp feeding the 2 subs...2 channels to each sub?

SidewaysTA

iTrader: (11)

While it may look like two seperate channels they are actually the same channel. They're linked inside the amp. Atleast that is what I see.

http://www.houston-f-body.org/tech/monsoon/Schem3.htm

SICK WS 6

iTrader: (7)

Ah, is that why one coil is shown as 4ohm and the other is shown as 2ohm on the same speaker?

Snootch

iTrader: (3)

IB, or infinite baffle is the same thing as free-air.

The only speaker that I can find is the Kicker RMB6. It's a 6.5" free-air (or IB) woofer usually used for midbass duties, but acceptable as a bass driver. It is also only 2.5" thick as well. It is only a 4 ohm driver, so the bass output might/might not be up to par of the stock units. if it's not, then an aftermarket amp capable of 100 x 2 @ 4 ohms will have to be used to power them. Unfortunately, they have been discontinued. However, I did find a few places on the 'net that still sell them: http://www.mobilcaraudio.com/catalog...2243/91717.htm
http://www.electronic4me.com/catalog...oducts_id=2738
http://www.koby-international.com/Pr...px?Phrase=rmb6

and the product manual: http://www.kicker.com/images/manuals...icalManual.pdf

Hope this helps...

HiTechGent

I just figured that was a typo.

TKO52

iTrader: (3)

Got the 650 in and in the trans am the sound is really clear, and the only thing that could be considered bad is that they do not hit the lower frequncies as the stock pair did

staff23

iTrader: (2)

I thought as long as you wired the speakers the same on both sets it didn't really matter what you did? However, I am using svc, not dvc, so that might be where I am getting confused.

SICK WS 6

iTrader: (7)

Yeah, I don't know. I've read a couple of times that one set of leads going to the sub are 2 ohm, and the other set is 4 ohm.
Not sure how that can be as the amplifier doesn't set the resistance of the circuit, the voice coil of the speaker does.

The only way this would work would be one of 2/3 ways:
1) each 4ohm coil is wired to a separate channel on the amp, 4 channels total
2) each speaker wired to a separate channel on the amp, 2 channels total
a) both coils on that speaker wired in series to create an 8 ohm load on that channel
b) both coils on that speaker wired in paralled to create a 2 ohm load on that channel

Maybe I'm missing something, but this makes no sense.
I think I'm just going to dump the whole Monsoon anyways.

HiTechGent

You are correct. The speaker sets the load resistance. However, according he wiring diagrams I've seen posted here, there are 2 seperate pairs of wires from the amp, one pair for each voice coil. You'd think that both pairs would be the same and that the only thing that matters was getting teh (+) and (-) right. It is possible that one pair has a higher gain than the other, or can sink more current than the other. But without more details on the workings of the amp, who knows?

One way to find out how the speaker is configured is to take an ohmmeter and see if you have continuity between any of the 4 wires. You'd see continuity between the two (+) wires and the two (-) wires if the coils are wired in parallel. You'd see continuity between one of (+) wires and one of the (-) wires if in series (btw: a series connection would make them 6 ohm not 8 ohm). Or no continuity between any of the 4 wires if on isolated channels.

For the poeple from Bithlo: Continuity = measured value less than 2 ohms.

joe_kool315

I hate to disagree, but each (speaker) voice coil measures 4 ohms a piece not 4 and 2 like the diagram shows which in series does give you 8 ohms of resistance ... ie ... 2 4ohm resistors in series = an 8 ohm resister.

Now we're talking "nominal ohms" actual measured ohms will vary usually +/- .5 ohms depending on the individual speaker and then once actuall playing music the resistance will vary dramitically depending on the frequency of the music being sent through the voice coil at any given moment in time. Given this information you can tell it's not an exact science and that's why most decent automotive amps have many buitl in self protection circuits and a thermal cut out as an extended note at a certian frequency could have even an 8 "nominal" ohm speaker being seen as a 1 ohm load by the amp and drawing an @$$ load of current (where the MAX wattage ratings actually do come into play ) This is usually only a very short instant but theres' much music now days ... espicially the synthisized (sp?) that hit odd high and low notes alike for extended lengths.

HiTechGent

I was just going by what the schematics say. To be frank, it never made sense that the wiring diagram showed the DVC speaker to have one 2 ohm coil and one 4 ohm coil. I thought this was a typo at first, but posts on other threads swear it was no mistake. I still don't understand why GM used different speakers in the Camaros from what is in the firebirds.

Since, I've never had one of these Firebird speakers in my hands, I'll take your word that both coils are 4 ohm.

Since the Camaro used a SVC 2 ohm speaker, I think it's safe to say that the DVC speaker coils are very likely wired in parallel.

joe_kool315

I measures mine (speakers) out today and they were 3.5 ohm and 3.3 ohm I also went 1 step further and measured the impedance of the connector for the speaker in the cars wiring harness... 2 pins closest together (the 2 wires going to 1 voice coil) read any where from 5 to 28 ohms with the musice going through it on both sides and when you measure across the wide space (basically across both pos or both neg or pos to neg any way you go across the wider gap ) I get like .8 MEGA ohms (800K ohms) or more which while not an open surely doesn't pass enough current to affect anything much less be considered bridged (externally or internally) in the monsoon "system" so I can safely say that it looks to me that it is indeed 2 seperate channels going to EACH voice coil.

Now what I did not do was measure across the car to the wires on the other side to see if for some insane reason they were bridged across that way, but I didn't think that was even an option as it would kill any kind of stereo immaging and just be a silly way to go about it.

SICK WS 6

iTrader: (7)

Awesome. I was going to do this tomorrow, now I don't have to.
But I am going to try to figure out the deal with these Eu700's.

Edit: Just hooked the Eu700's up in my Monte Carlo. They were being powered by a Class D Alpine V12. I hooked the voice coils on each speaker up in series, then wired the two speakers up in parallel so the amp would see 4ohms. Sounds to me like 1 is blown, and the other is definitely having problems as it has little to no output. I could be wrong though.
I'm going to e-mail or call Ben at Elemental and see what he thinks.

HiTechGent

I wouldn't use the Eu700's without a low-pass crossover. Those have top freq response of 250Hz. The Monsoon amp puts out at least 1KHz on the sub channels.

Richiec77

iTrader: (3)

Subsonic frequencies are not directional in a true sense. It would seem to be if the area resonates like a rattle or the speaker buzing. Therefor it wouldn't need to be a stereo output, just mono to work. Imaging and a Sub don't go hand in hand. Time delay and the summing-canceling of the waves do.

Oh and as far as measuring 800K, answer these questions: How does a DVM measure resistance? And if they use filtering for DC reverse current in the circuit, what component am I talking about?

When you answer those, you will start to see that the 800K measurement is a pointless measurement. It doesn't prove anything until you have some schematics in hand and can calculate the Znom for the circuit. Even then the Znom is a reactive measurment.

As for your resistance measurements, what are you measuring when you measure the coils? (Big hint there)

joe_kool315

Srry for the delayed responce, been teaching the last couple weeks and teaching days are hectic

well you're a little deeper in the circuit that I am with the Znom as there are no componet scematics available BUT the DMM would have to send a voltage (using it's own internal battery for power) through the "device under measure" and through the internal circuitry of the DMM measure the diffrence of the "sent" vs "recieved"

Resistances measured in circuit are NEVER going to be exact. componets must be isolated (removed from power and the circuit) before a proper resistance measurement can be made. So while this does make the 800K resistance measurement seem invalid (espicially since made with power on and music playing) one also must use some basic knowledge of current flow to "guestimate" the path of least resistance woud get the vast majority of current flow. (all of this I'm sure you know judging from your post )

Like you said without any diagrams (other than the "very basic" ones from the service manuals) of the detailed innerworkings of the monsoon amp theres' really not way to decisively say absolutly yes or no to the 2 seprate channels 1 for each voice coil or just 2 seperate speaker connections for each voice coil getting bridged internally in the amp

measuring the resistance of a "coil" is just that ... the wire that makes up the coil. How much resistance there is in the wireing from the + to the - of the speaker jacks. which would more accurately be measures in mHy's which is why is't good to know the impeadance curve of your speakers. also benifical in setting up high/low pass or band pass filtering to help keep speakers within their operating parameters and avoid any distortion.

HiTechGent

I just can't imagine anything other than those outputs being balanced-parallel outputs to each speaker. My suggestion would be to look at the signals coming from them with a dual-trace oscilliscope. My guess is the waveforms would be damn close to the same.

Unfortunely, Since I don't have access to a Monsoon equipped Firebird, I can't investigate further.