HiTechGent

I meant to illustrate the fact that coil impedance by itself says nothing about how well the speaker turns electrical signals into sound. The point being: just because the stock speakers are 2 ohm, doesn't mean you can't use a 4 ohm speaker. Likewise, Just because an aftermarket speaker is 2 ohms, doesn't guarantee it's a good replacement.

You are correct that Sensitivity/Efficiency ratings need to be placed in context. And coil impedance can be a critical factor in interpreting the sensitivity numbers.

For those who don't know: Sensitivity is usually defined as the sound power level a speaker produces at a defined electrical input measured at a fixed distance directly in front of the speaker. Unfortunately, speaker manufacturers don't measure sensitivity the same way, nor do they always tell you how they measured it. And for multi-element speakers they don't tell which element the measurement relates to. But sensitivity is the only commonly given spec that quantifiably relates electrical input to sound output.

fredmr39

Exactly. Thanks for calrifying

tmc2k1

iTrader: (4)

Ok i have a Firebird and my stock subs in the back are rattling and not sounding good anymore.

How hard is it to install these into a firebird? Would i need new wiring? Judging from the posts id say no. Thanks so much! You guys put 1 on each side right?

WhiteBird00

iTrader: (4)

Assuming you have a Monsoon system in your Firebird then installation is the same as shown except that you will wire the four terminals on the speakers individually to the four factory wires instead of combining them to connect to only two wires as in a Camaro.

JR HAWK 9

iTrader: (3)

seeing these are actually subwoofers, and for those of us that already have a dedicated sub and are using the sail panel drivers as midbass fill, I'm not so sure that these 7kv.2 subs are a good choice here -if- they can't play midbass. I have a pair of Peerless midbass drivers in my sail panels and they play -great- midbass. I have thought about trying these eD's in place of my Peerless, but I just think they may excel more as a subwoofer than they do as a mid bass driver. What are your guys thoughts?

tmc2k1

iTrader: (4)

So whitebird i can use the stock amp and everything? Is this easy to setup? Im a n00b when it comes to car audio but i would like something a bit more powerful than the stock subs without changing my setup and this definitely sounds like a good solution

WhiteBird00

iTrader: (4)

Yes, as fredmr39 has described, you have to make a spacer and do some work to mount the speakers but you can just wire them up to the factory speaker wires and keep your head unit and Monsoon amp.

Just be sure to double check that you have a Monsoon system (W54 or W55 option code on the door sticker) - most V6 models didn't come with the Monsoon system.

tmc2k1

iTrader: (4)

Yeah i got it..most v6's dont come with leather either and i got that as well Everything but t-tops

B T

Very nice write up!

Mine are also blown and was looking for a decent replacement vs cost just for stock system use.

What do you guys think about this unit as a replacement over the stockers?

http://cgi.ebay.com/AUDIOPIPE-6-SUB-...QQcmdZViewItem


Thanks in advance!



BT

fredmr39

75 Watts power (RMS)
DVC 4 ohms

---------------

RMS seems like a good number to be at - I was thinking 75wrms or more would be a good match for the Monsoon amp.

DVC 4 Ohms will work just fine for either the Firebird or the Camaro.

--The price there is for one sub I believe, so Just make sure there is another one available if you go with these. There are many options you can find on ebay if you search for 6"/6.5" subs/midbass drivers.etc...

I know nothing about the brand/manufacturers of Audiopipe...most I have seen on ebay are by Audiobahn (ex: http://cgi.ebay.com/AUDIOBAHN-AMD60Q...QQcmdZViewItem)
--Those speakers however are SVC 3 ohm....but 3 ohm speakers should still give very nice results - assuming efficiency/quality/etc are the same as a comparable 2 ohm.....

-------

so in summary: there are many options out there -- go with what you want to spend money on or need - and post your results!

B T

>>>>>>>>
Thanks for posting that Audiobahn link.
The Audiobahn specs look better than the Audiopipe.

Audiobahn: Frequency Response: 30Hz - 5kHz
Sensitivity: 93dB
Power Handling: 200 watts RMS /pair

Audiopipe: freq. resp.: 60 - 3KHz
sensitivity: 88dB
75 Watts power (RMS)/ per 1


I like the 93 db sensitivity, that's killer for a 6 inch and their only $10 more per pair!
I'm not so sure about it being only 3 ohms though, what is your opinon?
Would you rather have 1 more ohm to drive the amp with less power on 93 db sensitivity or 5 less sensitivity db's and one less ohm to drive the amp harder?

Do you know the freq. response and sensitivity on the Elementals? ( i found there spec sheet rather confusing )
The Elementals have some pretty great reviews, I might end up going with them.
I know it's tough to try and explain louder bass or deeper base in a text format and I know you say they are better than stock.
Is there anyway you could put maybe a percentage on how much better than working stock units?
Would you say the bass is more solid and deeper with out getting muddy like the stockers at higher volume levels and with the bass level turned maybe to 3/4?

Sorry for all the questions, I just replaced the door speakers with some Walmart Sonys and I just don't like the way they sound.
I'm just trying to avoid making the same mistake with the sail panel speakers.


Thanks!

BT

TA guy

iTrader: (1)

I would avoid them, they are selling them as a "subwoofer" but they list the low end of their useful range as 60HZ, and because the website does not list any useful info about the driver (great looking catalog though) usually that means the specs are less than spectacular. The fact that it is shiny will not make it sound good.

The EU-700 has an fs around 28HZ IIRC, much better for low end reinforcement.

Others worth considering if you like the EU-700:
Mpyre Audio 65M and 65X
TANG BAND W6-1139SG

You could also opt for a good 7" midwoofer (there are lots to choose from).

I would also like to second HiTechGent in that the sensitivity number is pretty much useless if you do not understand all the factors involved in determining that number and the reference point used by the manufacturer.

TA guy

iTrader: (1)

That Audiobahn is a great example for misleading sensitivity numbers.

based on the T/S specs from their website (which are often up to 20% off, but you have to start somewhere)
SPL @ 1W,1M is 84db
SPL @ 2.83 Vrms, 1M is 87.8db

The 93db number is an "in car" measurement, which is an extremely optimistic and undocumented measurment.

To reiterate, unless you understand whats going on, do not use the sensitivity rating to compare drivers.

fredmr39

yea that's why I didn't even comment on their high sensitivity...I never looked into it though, but I should have since it may mislead people. Thanks for posting those #s!

fredmr39

I would like to...but there are several problems with this:

I have not heard stock bass....almost ever. In my car I've had just an aftermarket HU and amp/sub setup for 3 years or so now...

I did the install in my brother's car, and his rear speakers were completely blown...then the one he thought worked he lost somehow. So I have not heard his stock system EVER before...(since only the distorted hatch speakers and the front left tweeter worked...lol). If you want a % compared to that.....well, they are 100% better!

What I can do though is compare my setup (without the amp/sub) to his....my HU is not stock however... I will also compare aftermarket HUs with factory bass and eD bass then once I put his new HU in. There are a variety of measurements and observations I would like to make (with ears and various equipment) so that I can be more clear in my description....but it will have to wait until spring break when I have the cars.

B T

Thanks TA guy for that info.
I didn't know that more than one measure could be used, I thought there was one standard used. SPL @ 1W,1M ( free air )

Does the other method alter the Freq. specs? lower or higher HZ?
Audiobahn: Frequency Response: 30Hz - 5kHz
If one was looking for more lower end response wouldn't it be better to choose a sub with a lower HZ rather than one that starts out higher?

I'm probably confused on this, please try and help me understand if I am not correct.


I'm not so sure about it being only 3 ohms though, what is your opinon?
Would you rather have 1 more ohm to drive the amp with less power on 93 db sensitivity or 5 less sensitivity db's and one less ohm to drive the amp harder?
>>>>>>>>>>

so, since the sensitivity is not that much of an issue what about the ohms in this instance between the audiobauhn and audiopipe for overall performance with the factory amp?


PLease explain if for some reason I still don't understand.


Thanks.


BT

B T

I would like to...but there are several problems with this:
>>>>>>>>>

I understand and thank you for the help!


If you want a % compared to that.....well, they are 100% better!
>>>
lol

Thanks again and I'm looking forward to spring break!



BT

fredmr39

no - but there are some problems with freq. response...I'll try my best to explain what I know and look for:

A frequency response tells you how much of the audio range the speaker can reproduce -- and SOMETIMES how well it is at reproducing certain frequencies in that range. A rating of 50 Hz is pretty good bass response almost the lowest not on acoustic bass (I *THINK* I heard that before). 30hz is PLENTY low IMO, and wont be THAT much greater for smaller speakers claiming 20 Hz (upper freq rang is usually 20k Hz.....20 Hz - 20,000 Hz is the average range of human hearing).

Sometimes you see a +/- dB rating...this means that when given a signal of a certain voltage within the freq range of the speaker, the speaker will give you sound +/- 3 decibels of the original signal. 3 is considered good, 2 really good, under that....too good. **** THAT **** is the spec there could be discrepancy in a way... Two speakers with exactly the same rated frequency response can sound completely different. One can be +3 dB from 80 Hz to 500 Hz, and -3 dB from 5 kHz to 20 kHz. It'll sound very...idk the word for it - not crisp/clear...darker (not the good kind of darker...there is good dark and dirty dark...usually you WANT sounds darker though). Another could be -3 dB from 80 Hz to 500 Hz, and +3 dB from 5 kHz to 20 kHz. This one will sound very bright, because obviously it is usually 3 dB LOUDER that the actual sound at higher freqs and 3 dB LOWER for lower freqs...... so now thats a difference of 6 dB....HUGE. This is why there is so much variation amongst components, and you really have to look at the specs or look at them...some will sound ver bright, others very bottom heavy. Freq response also depends on how you listen to the speaker (certain "axis"). Chances are you won't be listening on that axis...so +/- X dB may be much higher, and usually is higher.

Sensitivity may or may not be that different (haven't looked at exact numbers), but impedance is definitely something you can count on making a difference. A 4 ohm speaker will get maybe 66% the power of a 2 ohm in most situations, and a 3 ohm speaker close to 83% of the 2 ohm...... of course it could be better or worse, but that shows some relation to power differences... and with the better efficiency ratings, it can sound like 100% or more. IF you can get accurate ratings, sensitivity is one of THE BEST figures to look at IMO.. If a speaker is has a sensitivity rating that is 3 dB more than another one - believe it or not, your amp demands only HALF as much power to produce the SAME amount of sound volume. 90 is considered good...so when you see something like 93 from a cheaper speaker....you should probably assume that something is up.

EDIT: by the way....don't get too caught up in the numbers... the only way to REALLY know is to either engineer a speaker yourself, or read reviews/opinions/listen yourself and see if YOU like it. Also, I realize we are looking at "subs" in this thread....don't be pushed away from higher distortion % for lower frequencies....as they are generally higher, and inaudible. Which is also why amps such as class D monos generally give up some signal clarity for transistor speed - it wont be audible through the sub (generally). Unfortunately as far as hands on experience, I have almost none... just through what I have heard mostly, so I am not very useful there... Luckily, there are some guys with LOTS of experience on this board that I have come across in the short time I've been here.

chadnol10

iTrader: (41)

sweet

TA guy

iTrader: (1)

Unfortunately, there is just too many variables to be able to apply 1 simple rule of thumb to selecting the "best" speaker for any particular application. I highly recommend going to http://www.bcae1.com/ as a primer for anyone who doesn't know the science of audio. While it dosen't cover everything, it will give you enough information to know what to ask next.

That Audiobahn is not a good choice for a sub replacement, its low freq responce is definitely not what you want for that application.

For a small sub like that with reasonable low end responce the sensitivity rating will be low, its how the physics work. the sensitivity of a driver will decrease as its ability to produce low frequencies incresaes and/or as the required box size decreases. Look up Hoffman's Iron law for an explanation of the physics behind it.

you will definitely not find an honnest 90db 6.5" sub that produces low notes with authority in this application.