Jeff@TotalPerformanceEng

iTrader: (6)

Hey gentleman (and ladies)

I need your expert opinions..

For the last 1800 miles or so (Since the motor was built) I have had an extremely loud knocking sound in the top end of my motor. Its kind of a weird sound. Almost like a hollow plastic clocking sound.
The tuner said that it was the lifter trays being too tight on the lifters, and that it would eventually go away.

Welll, It hasnt.
I have spoken to more than a few tuners, and ALL of them said that they had NEVER heard of such an issue (tight lifter trays causing noises)

I have gotten soo sick and tired of the noise, that I decided to pull EVERYTHING apart.

Heres my problem:
When I got to the rockers, I noticed that the insides of the allen head bolts were streched. I attempted to remove one of the bolts and it was nearly impossible. I tried it with my T-handle wrenches and was unable to remove it. I finally got out one of my other wrenches and literally had to force the bolt loose. Almost to the point where I thought I was gonna break the head of the bolt off.
I have yet to remove the other bolts, in fear of snapping the heads off.

I have never personally done this, so I have ZERO working knowledge as to how tight it should be when its removed.

When I pulled the pushrod out I read the side of it. It says: "Trick Flow 7.50 .80"

I cant really tell if its bent or not though.

My motor is a 403 LS2 w/AFR 225's.
I almost **** my pants when I saw the 7.50 because I have always heard that thye are supposed to be right around 7.40. But then I remembered that I am running .074 head gaskets. This will contribute to the extra length right?

If I am running stock lifters, an aftermarket cam, stock rockers, AFR 225's, and an .074 head gasket, does a 7.50 sound logical??

Also, could the studs have been so torqued down that I was running MONSTER preload?? Thus causing the loud knocking sound??

Heres a few pics so you can see what I'm talking about.

thehammer69

iTrader: (2)

I know Patrick G has AFR 225's with a .040 head gasket and uses 7.4" pushrods for a .100" preload. If you were to put your gaskets on his engine, he would need 7.434" pushrods...since they don't mkae those, you would round to 7.425". If your heads are the same size as him milling wise, I would say you have too long of pushrod that is maybe taking up all the travel in the lifter. According to Katech, OEM lifters have around .150-.200" of total interior travel.

Hammer

2001WS6Vert

Are you sure the noise is from the valvetrain? If your pistons don't have offset pins it could be from them. I had JE pistons with centered pins and it was nasty loud (diesel like). They were replaced with Diamonds with offset pins and it is quiet as a mouse now. I thought the noise was valvetrain but after adjusting the valves six different ways I decided it had to be from the pistons.

Jeff@TotalPerformanceEng

iTrader: (6)

They are off the shelf 4.005 Diamond pistons. Does Diamond make them any other way?

Jeff@TotalPerformanceEng

iTrader: (6)

I have out of the box AFR's (No milling)

2001WS6Vert

I thought I heard all Diamonds were offset to alleviate noise. I'm not positive though, you might call them. They say offsetting cost a little HP so if it was an all out build maybe they are centered.

vettenuts

iTrader: (4)

Confirm with Tony Mamo, but I thought the AFR's required a 0.100" longer pushrod, at least that is what comes with the Crane rocker kit.

Jeff@TotalPerformanceEng

iTrader: (6)

I just got off the phone with one of the techs @ AFR.
He said that unless my cam has a significantly less base circle, I am running wayyy to long of PR's.
I'm gonna do somechecking tonight and see how much preload I was running. But I bet that based off of how tight the studs were, that I am running .150

It looks like I have been bottoming out my lifters.

What kind of HP do you loose in this situation?

BTW, The AFR's run the same length as stock heads. It is NOT necessary to go with a longer PR in order to compensate for the different head. (according to AFR)

Rick@Synergy

iTrader: (5)

You have a turn to turn and a half like alllllll setups should have. The pushrods are correct. It comes down to deck height, gasket thickness, and head thickness. Most of the time that I bolt on a thick head like the AFR's, its more than likley to use more pushrod than less.

Chromoly does not bend, it snaps.

Losing power? I would not call 800hp missing anything.

Diamond pistons are known to be loud, especially when you have a goal of alot of HP, you need to build in more room on the piston to wall.

rick

Rick@Synergy

iTrader: (5)

By the way, if you have EVER worked on and LS1 valve train, you will find its always tight to get the bolts off. A t-handle is not what you want to use.

Rick

machinistone

Do you have a build sheet from whomever built your motor? Are they 4032 or 2618 pistons? What was the piston to wall clearance set at, what is the compression height? Why was the quench killed with a .074" head gasket???

Get a pre-load measurement.

Jeff@TotalPerformanceEng

iTrader: (6)

I usually tend to agree with you Rick.
But in this case, I have to call 100% complete and total BULLSHIT.

Heres a couple of facts:

1) The rocker studs were torqued down to 46ftlbs. YES, 46!!!

2) Every stud was NO LESS than 7 half turns out from zero lash. YES, 7 TURNS!!! 2 of which were 9 turns. They were soo tight that not only did I BEND my allen wrench, I had to use a 1/2" ratchet for more leverage.

3) The wipe pattern of the valve tips is soo far forward, that on one tip it almost looks like it was coming off of the edge.

4) I personally talked to AFR today, and they stated that they DO NOT require a longer PR on out of the box heads.

5) On a few of the valve tips, there was sooo much load on the valve that it started to wear away the outer edge.

6) I not only have 40+ pictures, but I have VIDEO as well.

I am NOT some rich ******* idiot that doesnt have a clue. So PLEASE dont try and pull the wool over my eyes.

Please explain to me how a setup with a: stock deck LS2 block, out of the box AFR 225's, .074 head gaskets, stock rockers, and an aftermarket cam, equates to 7.5 pushrods???????

This IS NOT a bitch session. This is a thread to try and correct a problem that I paid YOU to insure I DIDNT have.. I paid almost 8,000 for my shortblock. YES, thats right 8,000 dollars. For a fuking 402. When I had that estimate from Texas Speed for 3,000 LESS dollars, I said to you, "I'm NOT trying to get you to justify or adjust your cost. I just want it RIGHT. Even if that means paying a premium"
The least it could be is RIGHT..

Here are few figures of my imagination....

Jeff@TotalPerformanceEng

iTrader: (6)

Heres another one...
Does this wipe pattern look correct??

Rick@Synergy

iTrader: (5)

I guess AFR did not explain to you that they had a recall on their valves then recently? And your batch of heads might just fall into that category.

I checked for wipe pattern and preload. It was fine.

And you cant meassure taking off a bolt in a TQ meassurment. Like I said, when you take these rockers off in an LS1, anyone can tell you it takes some power. They dont just come off with one hand. This statement is like me using my TQ wrench to take tires off. It takes more than 100FT to take them off, but they go on with 100FT.

I like how you use 8K for a motor with heads and camshaft and chain and pumps, versus 3K for a bottom end.

As for nine turns, I am sure you were taking them off while the rocker was on the lobe if thats the case. I dont see I could have missed the 9 turns.

Rick

Rick@Synergy

iTrader: (5)

For those asking, the piston meterial is the 2618, calls for about .005 on the wall, added another .001-.0015 for saftey with the level of boost he wanted.

Rick

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

Jeff,
I'm sorry to hear you still have not found the cause of your problem. I am really interested to see what you find out. I'd have to pull the heads and check the pistons and lifters.
Phil

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

Your valvetrain is not setup correctly either. We had a VERY similar problem with a set of ETP heads and we had to go to Comp Cams adjustable rockers to fix the problem. Your wear pattern should be right in the middle of the valve stem. If its close to the pushrod the rocker needs to come up and a longer pushrod used. If its on the outside of the valve the rocker needs to be sunk and a shorter pushrod used BUT this is not whats causing your noise. Good Luck

Jeff@TotalPerformanceEng

iTrader: (6)

This is my problem..

Regardless of what I say or do, its an excuse as to "Why" it couldnt have been wrong.
I've been asking for MONTHS about this issue. When the car was at your shop, Jerome heard the noise and was like "What the hell is that???"
When I told him about the lifter tray scenario he kinda gave me this weird look.
I have asked literally dozens of times to have this fixed. I NEVER said fix it on your dime.. I just said FIX IT.
Its the EXACT same thing as when you called me and told me my motor only had 9-11psi of oil pressure. The answer I got was: "Hey thats normal. I've seen worse than that. Dont worry, everything will be fine."
It wasnt until I freaked out on the phone AND you had another tuner say HEY, this isn't right. It ended up being a spun cam bearing.

I was out of line on the other forum. I retracted my statement AND even emailed you to appologize. Then I get the cold shoulder, and treated like I just killed your dog. But now I come onto this forum (where no one knows me) and I try and post a "Tech" question. And your still coming on the thread and acting like I dont have a clue.

1) ALL studs were soo tight that it took MULTIPLE turns to get them to zero lash. So unless ALL the valves were open, I cant exactly see how I could be on the tip of the lobe every time.

2) So your saying that if you set something to 30lbft of torque, then come back later and set the wrench to 40lbft. You WONT be able to turn the stud to 40lbft? Does it gradually tighten as it sits??

Heres how I checked: I set my wrench to 15lbft and went in 1lb increments (very very slightly) until there was enough tension to feel the stud want to move. It did NOT want to do anything till 46lbft. You know as well as I do thet you know when you are below the torque of the stud. Cause the wrench starts to click immediatly upon putting pressure on the stud.

Look, I didnt start this thread to complain about you. I wouldnt do that. Why in the world would I try and sever a friendship over a motor?? I didnt name ANY names in this thread, nor did I say ANYTHING that could be considered negative about you or your shop.

I started this thread to help guide me to correct a problem I've been having with my car. So unless you have some suggestions on "HOW" to correct a problem that I KNOW I HAVE, I'd really like it if you would NOT post. All it does is create anamosity.

I'm pulling the heads this morning to check the lifters and cam lobes.

billc5

iTrader: (1)

At the risk of stating the obvious;
Just a suggestion, put the stock 7.40 push rods in and fire her up.
Why did you pull the blower off, isn't the valve train accessible with it on?

The last time I had what I thought was valve train noise, I ended up with a new motor, not what you wanted to hear, eh?

Was the rotating assembly clearanced for the windage tray, and piston skirts?

Rick@Synergy

iTrader: (5)

Yup, they are.

Rick