Beast or stock sun shell?
02-14-2012, 09:54 PM
#1
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Beast or stock sun shell? Transmission re-builder says to stick with a new stock sun shell because he thinks the beast's are too heavy and puts a load on everything. Is he just being conservative? Everything's stock on the car except 3.73 gears and a Yank SS3600 after the build is complete.
Last edited by 2000 SS Camaro; 02-14-2012 at 10:00 PM.
02-14-2012, 10:10 PM
#2
There is a heat treated "stock" sun shell from GM. Drop Dana a line from Pro Build Automatics. He says he put one of these in a 9 sec car and has not broke it yet.
This is what I went with when I did my rebuild with the full kit from Dana. Just my 2 cents, but it will be lighter than the beast and will be better balanced.
This is what I went with when I did my rebuild with the full kit from Dana. Just my 2 cents, but it will be lighter than the beast and will be better balanced.
02-14-2012, 10:14 PM
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Transmission re-builder says to stick with a new stock sun shell because he thinks the beast's are too heavy and puts a load on everything. Is he just being conservative? Everything's stock on the car except 3.73 gears and a Yank SS3600 after the build is complete.
It's not the weight, it's the fact that the "offshore" produced beast is not balanced, and this part spins at considerable rpm. That being said, the stock unit is a piece of ****.........my personal units use a hardened tool steel sun shell that is balanced, uses a torrington bearing and machined lo-rev roller hub. They are not cheap and hard to get without buying it in kit form with input drum and shaft last I checked. No one wants to pop for them anyway so I use beast shells in 99% of my performance builds. I have yet to see a bearing, bushing, or planetary fail from using the beast.
02-14-2012, 10:20 PM
#4
I am having my tranny built as I type and it was told to me that the two weakest links are the shell and 3-4 clutch pack.... He recommended the beast because you can lean on it pretty hard and it will NOT break... also get the z-pak 3-4 clutch pack.. its like 30somethin times stronger than the "upgrade" they sell.... just my .02, but Id get the beast... Mine got stripped out and the 3-4 followed shortly thereafter...
02-15-2012, 08:18 AM
#6
Don't get me wrong it is rare that a beast sun shell would break, they are extremely strong. The thing that sold me on the heat treated OEM was the lower rotational mass compared to the Beast and the fact that the OEM is much more balanced compared to the Beast.
Every builder is going to have their own experiences and opinions. Do your research if you have not already done so, there are tons of posts and it won't hurt to talk with other builders and see what info you can get from them on how they would build it. AND make sure your builder has experience with 4l60e's and the LS1 application; quick tip...if a builder says you are out of your mind for running a 3600 stall find a different builder.
Dana is a great resource, he will give it to you straight and tell you exactly what you will need for your current and FUTURE set-up but he will not try to up-sell you on a bigger/beefier kit than you would need.
Every builder is going to have their own experiences and opinions. Do your research if you have not already done so, there are tons of posts and it won't hurt to talk with other builders and see what info you can get from them on how they would build it. AND make sure your builder has experience with 4l60e's and the LS1 application; quick tip...if a builder says you are out of your mind for running a 3600 stall find a different builder.
Dana is a great resource, he will give it to you straight and tell you exactly what you will need for your current and FUTURE set-up but he will not try to up-sell you on a bigger/beefier kit than you would need.
02-15-2012, 09:15 AM
#7
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The Beast is a proven part. It may have its short-comings, but common sense should tell you if it wasn't worth putting in, it wouldn't be in 99% of performance 4l60e builds.
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02-15-2012, 09:30 AM
#8
I told my builder I was going to use a 3200 stall thinking he would get nervous. He didnt bat an eye and just said to make sure I use a supplemental cooler.... I still get a full warranty.
02-15-2012, 10:59 PM
#11
I dont know why being balanced is such a big deal.. nothing else in that rotating assy is balance is it??? Ask any builder (believe me, ive talked to quite a few), they will tell you the failure rate is next to zero and that the "balanced/treated" sonnax is more of a selling gimmick since the "beast" is such an awesome piece. They need some selling point to move their product... 01ssreda4 knows his ****..
02-16-2012, 08:48 PM
#12
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The Sonnax "Smart Shell" is a GM heat treated sun shell with a custom bottom plate to both strengthen it and change the spacing so that the supplied torrington bearing only puts load on the custom roller clutch race and not on the sun gear and rear planetary. It has a thickness of 0.114 and weight of 48 oz (3 lbs):
"The Beast" has a thickness of .149 and a weight of 58 oz (3lb, 10oz):
The gear portion is also thicker (Beast is on the left):
The Sonnax kit includes the torrington bearing and a custom roller clutch race:
From these measurements and observations, there is no doubt in my mind that The Beast is stronger. However for my 525HP it may be overkill and I like Sonnax's claim of removing stress on the rear planetary's small-ish internal bearing. I understand The Beast is machined to optionally use a torrington bearing (instead of the wimpy washer), but I haven't measured and experimented with that yet.
"The Beast" has a thickness of .149 and a weight of 58 oz (3lb, 10oz):
The gear portion is also thicker (Beast is on the left):
The Sonnax kit includes the torrington bearing and a custom roller clutch race:
From these measurements and observations, there is no doubt in my mind that The Beast is stronger. However for my 525HP it may be overkill and I like Sonnax's claim of removing stress on the rear planetary's small-ish internal bearing. I understand The Beast is machined to optionally use a torrington bearing (instead of the wimpy washer), but I haven't measured and experimented with that yet.
02-16-2012, 10:12 PM
#13
anything spinning at high rpm is better if its balanced.will you see a difference?probably not.but the beast isnt balanced and the sonnax is.sonnax FTW.also the beast that came out of my last build was warped in the middle from stress and heat.sonnax are heat treated to eliminate that warp.im not a builder,by any means.but my builder is sooooo badass that he even educated me on these issues.thats how i know.wish i had pics to show you my old beast when it was put up against a straight edge.dont get me wrong,the beast is still a nice piece.just not as nice as the sonnax.
02-16-2012, 10:19 PM
#14
Well, my tranny is sitting on the bench right now... I called my builder after reading this thread and had him put in the torrington bearing... I already had the beast put in... He is giving me one hell of a build..I got:
Zpak 3-4 clutchpack, billet valve, Kevlar band, beast shell, torrington bearing, trans go kit, deep pan with plug, servo upgrade and some other **** I have no Idea what it is... I got most of the info from Tech on what was a good build so I asked him about it and he gave me the low down... I got his tranny with 12k warranty for $1130 including a Revmax 3200 converter and 14 Qts of fluid... Cooler is still on the purchase list...
Oh, and thanks Revmax for the Tech discount...
Zpak 3-4 clutchpack, billet valve, Kevlar band, beast shell, torrington bearing, trans go kit, deep pan with plug, servo upgrade and some other **** I have no Idea what it is... I got most of the info from Tech on what was a good build so I asked him about it and he gave me the low down... I got his tranny with 12k warranty for $1130 including a Revmax 3200 converter and 14 Qts of fluid... Cooler is still on the purchase list...
Oh, and thanks Revmax for the Tech discount...
02-16-2012, 11:49 PM
#15
I dont know why being balanced is such a big deal.. nothing else in that rotating assy is balance is it??? Ask any builder (believe me, ive talked to quite a few), they will tell you the failure rate is next to zero and that the "balanced/treated" sonnax is more of a selling gimmick since the "beast" is such an awesome piece. They need some selling point to move their product... 01ssreda4 knows his ****..
I don't think it's a big deal regarding the Beast shell, I've never experienced a vibration using one. There are bigger fish to fry when you are building a 4L60E than a few grams of imbalance on the sun shell. Like keeping the sun shell running true, and all the other junk inside a 4L60E from exploding.
The Sonnax piece is a nice part. The theory is sound and good.
The Beast has a proven reputation and a reasonable price so it's hard to beat.
I wouldn't consider a forum moderator an expert, usually far from it, except in the case of Vince, which is unusual.
02-17-2012, 01:27 AM
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A. You didn't have to make that statement at all, it's not relevant to this thread
B. Lots of moderators are pretty smart guys, you mentioned one, so why the general hate towards them to begin with?
C. I'm not a moderator anymore so go back and change your posts to "forum members aren't experts" so that it will include myself who you obviously have a bone to pick with.
02-17-2012, 01:47 AM
#17
Yeah, I remember you, you're the sponsor that likes to call our forum members stupid.
A. You didn't have to make that statement at all, it's not relevant to this thread
B. Lots of moderators are pretty smart guys, you mentioned one, so why the general hate towards them to begin with?
C. I'm not a moderator anymore so go back and change your posts to "forum members aren't experts" so that it will include myself who you obviously have a bone to pick with.
A. You didn't have to make that statement at all, it's not relevant to this thread
B. Lots of moderators are pretty smart guys, you mentioned one, so why the general hate towards them to begin with?
C. I'm not a moderator anymore so go back and change your posts to "forum members aren't experts" so that it will include myself who you obviously have a bone to pick with.
Mods can be pretty smart guys in general but more often than not are not technical experts. Vince is an exception.
I have no bone to pick. I call a spade a spade. If you, a forum member, or potential customer don't like the truth and would rather believe in BS, I'm probably not the vendor to do business with. I don't need to kiss anyone's *** to make a sale, our products speak for themselves.
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02-17-2012, 06:27 AM
#19
Yeah^^^^^ Wtf! Why does of always come down to a mines bigger than yours contest? It always has to be well I know more than you. Oh yeah? Well I know more than him! And this guys dumb and he knows nothing and etc. Just add your opinion on the shells and keep it moving. Open a post somewhere else for personal ****. I spend too much time reading on here as it is to educate myself and probly a quarter of it is wasted on this nonsense. Can't we agree that everyone knows what they know (some more than others) and that's it. Who's cares who knows more. If you know so much more than help teach people not criticize them. Sorry had to vent a little