xpndbl3

iTrader: (23)

I'm assuming I need to power up the box to even put in the first setup into it? I'm trying to upload a graph and can't connect it to my home desktop, sure will suck to wheel this thing out to my buddies shop to upload it. Secondly, can someone tell me what their map curve looks like? I got 64-0 on one side and the degrees of timing on the other. I'd like to add 8 degrees extra timing to the map side and have the curve disappear at WOT what is the conversion units for the 64-0 into vacuum. Why would MSD even setup the software this way.

Shawn MacAnanny

iTrader: (12)

You could jsut bring a battery into your house if it is fully charged. You must not let the power turn off during the upload.

I have a few posts around here explaning how it tune i and read the graph. Im gonna see if i can find them isntead of typing it all again

Shawn MacAnanny

iTrader: (12)

Here's on of the posts i made

Buy the MSD 6010 the Edelbrock box isnt tunable and all of the timing pills have over 34 degrees timing which is WAY too much. LS1s like 28. Heres what i can tell you abou the MSD box. This is a PM i sent to an LS1tech member who asked me about my victor jr intake and msd box

Ok here we go. I plugged the rear vacuum port on mine.. You could use it for a brake booster or a PCV setup BUT any fitting will hit your carb really. The size of the fitting is 3/8" NPT. You can get those copper fittings from Lowes, Home depot any plumbing store. The hole on the side of the intake below the carb is 1/8" NPT. This is where i hooked up my MAP sensor. I took a piece of 1/8" threaded pipe, threaded it into there, then got a 5/16" or so vacuum hose and fit it over the threaded pipe and then connected that to my MAP sensor.

For a MAP sensor you can use a stock LS1 sensor or use a Map sensor from realy anything just as long as you get the connector for it. The MAP sensor allows you to add more timing at part throttle i.e. while cruising to keep your engine burning more efficiently for ecconomy and such. It is not neccessary.

The timing pills (your capsules) all have WAY too much timing. All of them have over 34 degrees of timing at WOT and LS1s usually dont like anymore than 28 or so. To tune the sofware you will need to download this software and buy a serial cable and a laptop that has a serial port OR you can get a USB to serial adapter cable from radioshack which is like $30.

http://www.msdpowersports.com/prodata_software.html

To tune it you will need to open a up a new map, search through the folders and look for one labeled "6010". That is the box you are using. This will bring up a table to tune with for your box. It starts as a line graph. You just drag the line up to the desired degrees of timing at the specified rpm. I have my base timing set at 15 degrees and going all in to 28 by 3000rpm. When tuning the sofware you must save your tune to the computer then upload to the msd box. You can monitor the engine live through your laptop too. It will tell you rpm, base timing, total timing, and your MAP pressure in PSI.

Heres the tricky part about tuning with the MAP sensor. It measures in PSI, not HG like most all vacuum measurements are. With the engine off the MAP will read something like 14.6psi. This is atmospheric pressure. When you start the engine you will get a reading like 8.6psi. This shows the engine is pulling 6psi vacauum (14.6-8.6=6psi). 1 psi is roughly equal to 2 inches mercury (HG). Here's a chart

http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodiu...onversion.html


So once you get used to that you can now add timing based on engine vacuum. I added a total of 9 degrees timing with max vacuum. So when cruising i will have 28 degrees base timing and 38 total timing. The graph for the map sensor is the same tuning method. Rather than have RPM on the x axis it has PSI and on the y axis it has degrees timing advace. It's relitively simple to tune once you get the hang of it.

If you have the Edelbrock box you will not be able to tune the box.

Oh and for hooking up your harness it is labeled for your coil packs (1,3,5,7) on one connector (2,4,6,8) on the other. The cam sensor which is on the back of the engine (towards back of car) right on the lifter valley cover. The crank sensor is right behind you starter motor. Then you will need to add power which is the pink wire, the tach wire is yellow, and ground is black.

There is also an additional connector with two wires. The pink is a timing retard. When you give 12v to this wire your ignition timing will be retarded by whatever amount (4 degrees or whatever) you set when tuning it. This is for nitrous or whatever. To set the limit it is in the menu on the left of the screen that has rev limit and such. The other wire that is blue is a two step rev limiter. When you give 12v to this wire the engine will not rev above the 'lo rev' you set in your setup. This is for say launching or something. Depending on what MAP sensor you get too there is a menu option that says (1 bar, 2 bar, 3 bar) 1 bar is all you will need if you're not going boosted.

If you have any questions setting up your carb or timing or what to buy or for pictures feel free to email me at ShawnMacAnanny@earthlink.net . For a carburetor a 750 vacuum secondary works great. 72 primaries, 76 secondaries, 6.5 power valve, and you will need a 50cc accelerator pump for the off idle stumble you'll have with the large single plane intake. If your car is about 2800-3000lbs like mine use the short/long yellow spring (i cant decide which i like better the longer yellow makes me run a little more lean like 13.4 at WOT but seems to pull harder), if its 3200-3400 used the purple spring.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (23)

thanks i finally downloaded a conversion chart. just to touch base with you the graph shows 6 degrees of added curve from 1psia until 6psia then at 15psia i have the curve dropping to zero which in my mind was 6 degrees of curve added from 27 inches of vacuum until 15ish and then dropping the added map curve down to 15psia which is 0 inches of vacuum.

Shawn MacAnanny

iTrader: (12)

The higher the vacuum the MORE timing you want. The lower the vacuum (throttle blades open) the less timing you want. FWIW my engine only idles at 12 inches vacuum with my cam.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (23)

well that's why i assumed anything over the 14" or so this motor will make would still be the 6 degrees of timing added, since 27+6 would give me 33 total timing, seems that is as high as recommended to me. Then have the line slope down to zero degrees added at 15psia(zero inches vacuum). I have total timing at 3000rpm @ 27 degrees. With 25 degrees at 1000 or higher and 16 degrees base timing under 1000rpm for the starter to not kick back on a hot engine.

Shawn MacAnanny

iTrader: (12)

Well if you have it in your car what i would suggest is borrowing a friends laptop or something. Completely elimitating the MAP from the tune and driving around to get your vacuum readings. You can read and upload live with the 6010.

rojs234

iTrader: (5)

I may be reading you completely wrong, but it sounds like you may be confused about how the MAP curve works. It does add the timing to what you have in your main plot at the various points as you stated. Example: 27* on the main plot and, say 6* @ 6psia =33* BUT, what I think you're maybe confused about is the fact that at full throttle or any time your under a load situation, you have NO manifold vacuum. Therefore, in our example above, you would have 27*. Do like Shawn says and hook up a laptop, (borrow one) in the car; you can buy a little voltage convertor at Radio Shack, that plugs into the cigarett lighter. Then maximize the 3 dials on the graphs page and drive around and watch your total timing, RPM, and psia. You might have to do like me and tape a coversion chart to the dash to convert psia to inches of vacuum, LOL.
I'm going to catch a lot of flack on this, but you need to run more total advance than 27* to make power on a CARBURETED LS engine. All the GURUS on here will tell you to run 24-28*, and that is true on a Fuel Injected engine with a factory intake manifold, but not with a single plane carb type intake. Don't take my word for it. Search out the dyno tests of all the major engine builders and you will find that on a CARBURETED engine, they ALL run from 30-35* with the norm being around 32*. Check it out!! Ron

Shawn MacAnanny

iTrader: (12)

See i have yet to get my car dynoed so i do not know what max timing to run. I just run whats safe for now and sounds best by ear. It would make sense since carburetor intake temperature are much cooler due to cooler fuel which would result in less detonation.

rojs234

iTrader: (5)

Shawn, back several months ago, Hot Rod ran a continuing test over a few months, on an LQ4 (I believe) Ken Dutweiller did all the tests on his dyno, and used HP Tuner on the initial tests. Started with stock 6.0 as installed in trucks. Worked in stages up to CARBURETED and even single plane with elbow and TB. He had something like 27-28* through all tests untill he installed the CARB setup He had to go to 35* for max power. He attributed it to the fact that the two manifolds had a different range where peak torque occurred. Way out of my range of expertise, LOL. I would be curious to know what GM used for total timing on their recent Crate motor shootout in the magazines.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (23)

rojs i understand what you're saying and i completely agree. the map sensor is to keep from fouling plugs in day to day driving. Right now I have it setup for 27 degree total timing, when I hit the track I will add 1 degree at a time until max mph is found. Just figuring out the map curve was kinda backwards but i believe I have it setup for 6 additional degrees under high vacuum and 0 degrees added at wot.

Roller406Bu

iTrader: (1)

my carbed 6.0 likes 32 degrees.....

Shawn MacAnanny

iTrader: (12)

Im assuming you both are running 6.0L? LQ4s? They are like .5 lower in compression than the ls1 so maybe that contributes to you all being able to run more timing as well.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (23)

when i get the combo together in the spring hopefully i'll be able to post total timing for max hp, right now there's snow all around though.

Roller406Bu

iTrader: (1)

my 317 heads are shaved .020 so i have more compression than stockers...i run 93 at all times to be safe..

rojs234

iTrader: (5)

I'm like *Roller406Bu*, mine is 10.5- 11.0 with aluminum block and L92 heads. 93 octane when I can get it, 32* and thinking of moving up a couple from 3500 on up.

rojs234

iTrader: (5)

OK, here goes. I'm going to try this, but I get confused by it too, and sometimes get myself screwed up. The purpose of the MAP sensor is to add timing under light load conditions, mostly to improve fuel mileage, but it also helps its power somewhat at cruise, and your right it does help keep the plugs clean. As I said before though, as soon as you start loading the engine, the MAP will start retarding the timing that you have added on your MAP curve. If you set up a laptop like we suggested you can apply throttle and if it starts "pinging", you can see what psia it started doing it and change the timing slightly lower at that point on the MAP graph. Neat , huh. Most engines can use as much as 45-50* total advance at cruise. That would be your 27* + 18* at high vacuum levels. Most will run 32*+10-13*. Now I'm talking at 8psia on UP to Opsia. This is from around 15inches of vacuum UP to 20-23inches of vacuum. I used to and still do work on Mopars. The factory recommends up to 52* total timing, usually 35*centrifugal + 15* vacuum. I have right now, my own Mopar 340 set up .It has iron Magnum heads, 10.25 compression ratio, 230x237 cam, and a 750 3310Holley on it. I run 34* centrifugal, all in at 2200rpm and 14* vacuum for a total advance of 48*. It doesn't ping ever, and runs extremely well. On my 6.0 I'm running 32* all in at 2500 and I'm adding 13* starting to ramp up at around 8.0psia and then 13* at about 5psia and staying at that on UP to 0.0 psia. Don't forget, this 45* at cruise is going to drop back to 32* as soon as I put any load on it or hammer the throttle. Where you get in trouble is adding MAP advance at lower vacuum levels, like say 12 psia, which is around 6 inches of vacuum. (idle, on a cammed motor) Some guys do this to pick up the idle, but I've found it to be a mistake, because then when you get in a situation that is fairly heavy but not full throttle, the vacuum won't let it retard back to where it should. If I've just confused you more, I'm sorry. Ron

Roller406Bu

iTrader: (1)

I didnt hook up the map sensor on mine, but im carbed...runs flawless...

xpndbl3

iTrader: (23)

Ron I hear ya on running even more timing, my old sbc was 36' locked out and we ran another 10 degrees of timing with the vaccum curve on the ragged edge of pump gas. I wanted to start rather conservative and work my way up on this new combo. I still haven't seen many people running that much timing with an ls1 carb setup to feel comfortable to just put it to 32 instead of the 27 where I just uploaded it to the msd box. I'll take into consideration your numbers and probably move up to them in the spring time when I finally finish this build. thanks again, too bad there isn't a carb section with lists of people and their combo/timing settings etc.

Roller406Bu

iTrader: (1)

My friend dyno'd his car and that were his made the most power he started at 27 and went up im running a similar setup so i went with what he had...