high effort power steering problem
04-21-2012, 04:52 PM
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high effort power steering problem Posted at Chevelle site as well, but not getting much traffic...
as brief as possible- I am istalling an LS2/4L60E in my 1970 El Camino. The motor and accessories are from an '06 GTO. The steering box is a CPP 500 series (new.) When I started the engine first time, the power steering pump whined and moaned and within a few minutes, was so hot that oil residue was smoking off of its cast iron body. I replaced it with a power steering pump from a 1995 Camaro 350, as it had the configuration that I needed for fitment. I again started the motor and turned the steering wheel lock to lock many times to bleed any air out (wheels off the ground.) When I put the tires to the ground again, I notice that it feels as if I dont have power steering at all. Almost feels like steering with the engine off. I removed the pump and lines and replaced the pump with another rebuilt Camaro unit. I inspected both steering hoses and found no obstructions. With the new pump in place, the problem persists. I have no way to check pump pressure, but would be hard pressed to believe that I receive 2 bad pumps in a row. (Cardone)
I am wondering now that if I somehow damaged the gear box on initial start-up when the pump became smoking hot. Can the box be destroyed that easily? Should I buy another box or send this one somewhere to be rebuilt/inspected? I am at a loss here on which way to go. Anybody have a good idea or thought? I haven't budgeted for $50 worth of P/S fluid. Thanks for an suggestions.
as brief as possible- I am istalling an LS2/4L60E in my 1970 El Camino. The motor and accessories are from an '06 GTO. The steering box is a CPP 500 series (new.) When I started the engine first time, the power steering pump whined and moaned and within a few minutes, was so hot that oil residue was smoking off of its cast iron body. I replaced it with a power steering pump from a 1995 Camaro 350, as it had the configuration that I needed for fitment. I again started the motor and turned the steering wheel lock to lock many times to bleed any air out (wheels off the ground.) When I put the tires to the ground again, I notice that it feels as if I dont have power steering at all. Almost feels like steering with the engine off. I removed the pump and lines and replaced the pump with another rebuilt Camaro unit. I inspected both steering hoses and found no obstructions. With the new pump in place, the problem persists. I have no way to check pump pressure, but would be hard pressed to believe that I receive 2 bad pumps in a row. (Cardone)
I am wondering now that if I somehow damaged the gear box on initial start-up when the pump became smoking hot. Can the box be destroyed that easily? Should I buy another box or send this one somewhere to be rebuilt/inspected? I am at a loss here on which way to go. Anybody have a good idea or thought? I haven't budgeted for $50 worth of P/S fluid. Thanks for an suggestions.
04-21-2012, 05:32 PM
#2
The only way I can see that you would start to boil the fluild would be you have a restriction in the system somewhere. !? did you see if you have fluild flowing out of the return line into the reservior ?
I don't think your can really hurt the Box with what limited time you had on it, But if it really overheated, I would inspect or keep an eye on the seals for leakage. But if the high pressure side was being blocked or restricted in the box, you will damage the pump by deadheading the high pressure side of the pump. That is what the whine is from ??
Off the top of my head and my best guess would be to check the steering box has something blocking the flow in it. that's my 2 cent guess.
BC
I don't think your can really hurt the Box with what limited time you had on it, But if it really overheated, I would inspect or keep an eye on the seals for leakage. But if the high pressure side was being blocked or restricted in the box, you will damage the pump by deadheading the high pressure side of the pump. That is what the whine is from ??
Off the top of my head and my best guess would be to check the steering box has something blocking the flow in it. that's my 2 cent guess.
BC
04-22-2012, 07:12 AM
#3
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I would take the time to pull the lines and make sure they both flow smoothy. I have seen hoses assembled with a flap created that will close like a gate valve under pressure. In this case my first step would be to pull the return line from the pump and place it in a bucket, start the engine and look for fluid. Even before that remove the hoses from the gear box and make sure that there are no plastic or rubber plugs in the holes that many use for shipping.
04-22-2012, 08:09 AM
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I have taken the hoses off again and removed the AN fittings from the box. I visually inspected the hoses and used compressed air to blow them out. I also blew air through the stering box fittings starting with the return side- covered the inlet with a rag to see if anything came out. Nothing there either. I can get air in and out of both sides with enough pressure to create an oily mist. Pressure side hose is routed to the fitting closest to the motor, and furthest from the coupler. There is no belt slippage.
The whine (like low fluid) was only with the first pump. It has been quiet ever since.
I think I need to verify the pump pressure, but am not thrilled with spending $100 for a pressure tester for it. Any thoughts on a makeshift pressure tester?
Anybody know what kind of pressure at idle I should be looking for?
The whine (like low fluid) was only with the first pump. It has been quiet ever since.
I think I need to verify the pump pressure, but am not thrilled with spending $100 for a pressure tester for it. Any thoughts on a makeshift pressure tester?
Anybody know what kind of pressure at idle I should be looking for?
Last edited by Kingstir; 04-22-2012 at 08:11 AM. Reason: addition to text
05-03-2012, 06:47 PM
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Steering issue resolved Well, I finally have power steering. A couple of days ago, I removed the return line from the side of the reservoir and capped off the return inlet at the reservoir. I held the hose over the fill opening and had my lovely assistant start the car. Nothing at all came through, but the volume of fluid in the reservoir increased. Made me think that the P/S pump for a 1995 Camaro V-8 was turning the wrong way. I went to the wrecking yard today and found a 1998 Camaro V-6 that had a pump that looked like it might work. I had to move the 5/8" fill tube some, but it bolted up and works like a champ. Now I have to take it back off to clean it all up and make it pretty. The pump and reservoir and hoses from the '98 were $20. Should have done this from the beginning. Thanks for all the tips and suggestions.
Blanchard
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05-04-2012, 06:23 AM
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I believe that is correct. I bought one and exchanged it for another one when the first one didn't work right. I can't imagine how a P/S pump could pump backwards without either turning it around or running it off of the back side of the belt. When I saw the volume of fluid increase, I knew it had sucked in air at the return side and displaced fluid in the gear box. I guess i could spin it with a drill to verify, but I went with my gut and found another pump. I'm glad that part of the adventure is over.
11-29-2012, 06:26 AM
#10
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I found this useful previously, you can search for "power steering pressure" and find much more information. You may be surprised at how you actually can achieve lower pressure.
Ok, for a long time, I've been trying to find out what the output of the various PS pumps that are compatible with my setup,(94 Mazda RX-7, or FD).
I had heard a few things, installed two of them - but was looking at some others, so I finally dug into ALLDATA - the repair software that has all the specs/etc..
Here it is for posterity/reference. The first number is the GPM output - if it had a range, I put the range. The second is the Regulated PSI,(spring relief). I originally posted this on the v8rx7forum board but felt this is something everyone here could use on their swaps.
I rounded a few numbers - but usually no more than 10 psi.
I've grouped them by accessory belt depth.
The first depth is the C5/C6 Corvettes, Caddy CTS-V, Pontiac G8
Corvette LS1, LS6, LS2, LS7,(and I think supercharged LS9):
2.4/2.8 GPM 1250/1350 psi
Pontiac G8
2.0 GPM 1200-1300 psi
(of note for FD swaps, V6 model is 1100-1200 psi, I'm checking to see if it can work with the G8 accessories, doubt it)
Cadillac CTS-V, all years with LS6 and LS2:
1.9-2.1 GPM 1640/1740 psi
I think this is the shallow depth?:
2009+ CTS-V from LSA motor:
2.7 GPM, 1625/1850
Next grouping is GTO/F-body depth accessories
GTO - ALL YEARS w/LS6 and LS2,(04-06):
1.95/2.35 GPM 1100/1200 psi
Camaro/F-body 98-2002:
2.7/3.1 GPM 1200-1300 psi
Last is the Trucks:
All varied a little. For pretty much every 2000-2009 1500 or 2500 type truck/SUV,(Caddy, Chevy, GMC, etc), they followed this general guidelines:
4.7/s 5.3's, 6.0's:
~ 3.0-3.5+ GPM(some 2500's and later high end models like the Escalade were 3.5-3.9)
All were mostly 1425-1525 psi. The older,(2000 era) 2500 series were 1350-1450psi and the 1500's were 1450-1550.
Bottom line, most all truck PS pumps had 3,0+ GPM and ~1500 psi output.
The exception to spec range was the Trailblazer SS with of course the LS2 6.0 motor, and it was spec'd at 2.7-3.1, 1400-1500 psi. Not that far to be honest.
If someone can classify the FWD V8's as to pulley depth - I can put those up as well. (talking V8 Impala, etc..).
So in summary - car Pumps vary PSI output pretty significantly, now you can match the pump to your accessory depth and PS rack requirements. If the PSI is too high - cut coils off the relief spring.
If someone can put pictures of the various pumps up,(ones that will be around), we can further dive into this subject.
Please let me know what else you would like to make this complete!
Ok, for a long time, I've been trying to find out what the output of the various PS pumps that are compatible with my setup,(94 Mazda RX-7, or FD).
I had heard a few things, installed two of them - but was looking at some others, so I finally dug into ALLDATA - the repair software that has all the specs/etc..
Here it is for posterity/reference. The first number is the GPM output - if it had a range, I put the range. The second is the Regulated PSI,(spring relief). I originally posted this on the v8rx7forum board but felt this is something everyone here could use on their swaps.
I rounded a few numbers - but usually no more than 10 psi.
I've grouped them by accessory belt depth.
The first depth is the C5/C6 Corvettes, Caddy CTS-V, Pontiac G8
Corvette LS1, LS6, LS2, LS7,(and I think supercharged LS9):
2.4/2.8 GPM 1250/1350 psi
Pontiac G8
2.0 GPM 1200-1300 psi
(of note for FD swaps, V6 model is 1100-1200 psi, I'm checking to see if it can work with the G8 accessories, doubt it)
Cadillac CTS-V, all years with LS6 and LS2:
1.9-2.1 GPM 1640/1740 psi
I think this is the shallow depth?:
2009+ CTS-V from LSA motor:
2.7 GPM, 1625/1850
Next grouping is GTO/F-body depth accessories
GTO - ALL YEARS w/LS6 and LS2,(04-06):
1.95/2.35 GPM 1100/1200 psi
Camaro/F-body 98-2002:
2.7/3.1 GPM 1200-1300 psi
Last is the Trucks:
All varied a little. For pretty much every 2000-2009 1500 or 2500 type truck/SUV,(Caddy, Chevy, GMC, etc), they followed this general guidelines:
4.7/s 5.3's, 6.0's:
~ 3.0-3.5+ GPM(some 2500's and later high end models like the Escalade were 3.5-3.9)
All were mostly 1425-1525 psi. The older,(2000 era) 2500 series were 1350-1450psi and the 1500's were 1450-1550.
Bottom line, most all truck PS pumps had 3,0+ GPM and ~1500 psi output.
The exception to spec range was the Trailblazer SS with of course the LS2 6.0 motor, and it was spec'd at 2.7-3.1, 1400-1500 psi. Not that far to be honest.
If someone can classify the FWD V8's as to pulley depth - I can put those up as well. (talking V8 Impala, etc..).
So in summary - car Pumps vary PSI output pretty significantly, now you can match the pump to your accessory depth and PS rack requirements. If the PSI is too high - cut coils off the relief spring.
If someone can put pictures of the various pumps up,(ones that will be around), we can further dive into this subject.
Please let me know what else you would like to make this complete!
11-29-2012, 08:27 AM
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I believe that is correct. I bought one and exchanged it for another one when the first one didn't work right. I can't imagine how a P/S pump could pump backwards without either turning it around or running it off of the back side of the belt. When I saw the volume of fluid increase, I knew it had sucked in air at the return side and displaced fluid in the gear box. I guess i could spin it with a drill to verify, but I went with my gut and found another pump. I'm glad that part of the adventure is over.
Last edited by 74modified; 11-29-2012 at 08:39 AM.
11-29-2012, 06:25 PM
#13
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I stole the information from a previous thread, so don't thank me. I can't seem to figure out how to use the quote function.
The long and short answer is that you can adjust the output pressure (lower) by shimming the relief valve. This is found inside the long valve that comes out when you remove the nut on the fluid out fitting. You will then find the actual relief valve inside this structure. You should see a long thin device with what appears to be a bolt at one end. Under the bolt head will likely be some shims/washers. The more shims the lower the pump output pressure.
The long and short answer is that you can adjust the output pressure (lower) by shimming the relief valve. This is found inside the long valve that comes out when you remove the nut on the fluid out fitting. You will then find the actual relief valve inside this structure. You should see a long thin device with what appears to be a bolt at one end. Under the bolt head will likely be some shims/washers. The more shims the lower the pump output pressure.
