meth vs bigger injectors?
04-30-2015, 03:51 PM
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meth vs bigger injectors? First time meth user here and doing a budget turbo build.
I have a aem water meth kit on hand that has adjustable control, can turn on at 1lb of boost and ramp it in to full spray.
I cant seem to find anything as far as using meth injection as a fuel source vs bigger injectors. Basically I have 28lb injectors that come out to I believe about 45hp per injector x8 @80% duty cycle=360hp
I plan on running low boost ls1 7lbs rising rate regulator adjustable begi unit and have no clue how much hp it will make I imagine anywhere between 400-500hp
My question is will the meth be a good fuel source instead of buying injectors? Basically my thinking is to do some dyno pulls with meth full on as well as the setting on the begi at max then I like to think I would be super rich and back the begi out until it is tuned in. mail order tune will have timing pulled out.
I have a aem water meth kit on hand that has adjustable control, can turn on at 1lb of boost and ramp it in to full spray.
I cant seem to find anything as far as using meth injection as a fuel source vs bigger injectors. Basically I have 28lb injectors that come out to I believe about 45hp per injector x8 @80% duty cycle=360hp
I plan on running low boost ls1 7lbs rising rate regulator adjustable begi unit and have no clue how much hp it will make I imagine anywhere between 400-500hp
My question is will the meth be a good fuel source instead of buying injectors? Basically my thinking is to do some dyno pulls with meth full on as well as the setting on the begi at max then I like to think I would be super rich and back the begi out until it is tuned in. mail order tune will have timing pulled out.
04-30-2015, 04:37 PM
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Sorry new to all the fuel injection stuff. Purchased 2 turbo kits for motorcycles in the past that both came with begi so neither required injectors.
If you could give me some guidance. The only reason I was thinking this is because I seen a guy doing it the same way with a grand national at the track tuning with a data logger dumping in more meth or alcohol? to get his afr where he wanted it. Car was no joke just don't know how he did it or if it applies to my situation.
If you could give me some guidance. The only reason I was thinking this is because I seen a guy doing it the same way with a grand national at the track tuning with a data logger dumping in more meth or alcohol? to get his afr where he wanted it. Car was no joke just don't know how he did it or if it applies to my situation.
04-30-2015, 07:06 PM
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Thanks for the reply! I have been reading for hours today about the size injectors I have and I found others intercooled with 5lbs same injector size in the low 400hp range and that's where I want the car to be anyway due to the 4l60e. A begi is an old school way to force more fuel through the injectors. Vortech included them in their kits a long time ago. Its a simple adjustable rising rate fpr so I can bump in an extra 14psi of fuel per 1 lb of boost or less if needed. Used 2 of these on different bikes fastest was a mid 8 busa stock injectors ebay turbo etc. Thing got a lot of attention on the forums how cheap I was with it and how much power it put down. I do plan on injectors eventually but was just thinking that idea would work. Like you said though if the injection fails I am done for.
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04-30-2015, 09:48 PM
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Sorry guys meant to post the begi.
Forgot to mention a problem about the car.
When considering going turbo on this vette I was told on the vette forum the ecm was real bad cant be used etc. I called a tuner and his reply was he would not even touch it. I also called 2 other tuners speed inc and someone out of IN both never called me back. I originally wanted to run bigger injectors with water/meth and 2bar map. I just figured the first guy said no the other 2 had 0 interest in doing a tune so I went with the begi unit same as my hayabusa build. Now just recently I was posting on the vette forum and a guy tells me you can tune it ral good with the maf to 15lbs I just have to find the tuner that's willing because it is a little more difficult to tune. Anyhow I already got the begi so I think I will give it a shot at 5lbs and see how it goes.
Just for ***** and giggles here is a list of parts to give you guys an idea of what I am doing.
gt45 ebay turbo
begi with stock rails with hotwire kit with walbro255
aem water/meth after reading for days I think 25/75mix is best for my situation. Some way to pull timing etc.
Let me just also say I looked into doing the ecm swap and I honestly was confused in the first 5 min looking at diagrams. Self tuning through say handheld or laptop is also over my head and I don't have all the time in the world to learn but the option is getting tempting.
After reading a lot I found a guy that did use meth to tune instead of injectors etc and it does work at the expense of lost hp and risk. I would much rather get everything hooked up and have a shop look it over and tune. Thanks For the help.
Forgot to mention a problem about the car.
When considering going turbo on this vette I was told on the vette forum the ecm was real bad cant be used etc. I called a tuner and his reply was he would not even touch it. I also called 2 other tuners speed inc and someone out of IN both never called me back. I originally wanted to run bigger injectors with water/meth and 2bar map. I just figured the first guy said no the other 2 had 0 interest in doing a tune so I went with the begi unit same as my hayabusa build. Now just recently I was posting on the vette forum and a guy tells me you can tune it ral good with the maf to 15lbs I just have to find the tuner that's willing because it is a little more difficult to tune. Anyhow I already got the begi so I think I will give it a shot at 5lbs and see how it goes.
Just for ***** and giggles here is a list of parts to give you guys an idea of what I am doing.
gt45 ebay turbo
begi with stock rails with hotwire kit with walbro255
aem water/meth after reading for days I think 25/75mix is best for my situation. Some way to pull timing etc.
Let me just also say I looked into doing the ecm swap and I honestly was confused in the first 5 min looking at diagrams. Self tuning through say handheld or laptop is also over my head and I don't have all the time in the world to learn but the option is getting tempting.
After reading a lot I found a guy that did use meth to tune instead of injectors etc and it does work at the expense of lost hp and risk. I would much rather get everything hooked up and have a shop look it over and tune. Thanks For the help.
05-01-2015, 07:20 AM
#10
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A Begi works well on a 4-cylinder, not a V8. They were really popular in the sport compact and motorcycle crowds I was in before. They are a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. They don't operate on a standard 1:1 ratio, but usually somewhere between a ratio of 4:1 - 8:1.
They work well in a 4-cylinder because a typical 4 cylinder will only be using half of its injector from the factory (and usually at a lower pressure than 58 PSI). When you swap in a Walbro that's capable of 600 or so to the wheels, you can up the pressure quite a bit before its flow starts to drop, so its still capable of 400 at the wheels at 75+ PSI.
There lies the problem with the V8. 28 LB injectors are good to 450 or so flywheel in an N/A setup. Even the later LS1s are using 75% of their injectors at 58 PSI. From there, with even a low rate Begi (4:1), your pushing 86 PSI of fuel pressure at the 7 PSI you're looking for, and the flow on a Walbro 255 at that point has dropped so far it would be a miracle if it could flow enough for 400 to the wheels.
Your only option would be larger injectors and a lower base pressure.
Factor in that an MSD 6LS to pull timing is about $200 less than HPTuners which gives you FULL fuel/spark control, and you might as well just spend a few extra bucks and do it right the first time.
They work well in a 4-cylinder because a typical 4 cylinder will only be using half of its injector from the factory (and usually at a lower pressure than 58 PSI). When you swap in a Walbro that's capable of 600 or so to the wheels, you can up the pressure quite a bit before its flow starts to drop, so its still capable of 400 at the wheels at 75+ PSI.
There lies the problem with the V8. 28 LB injectors are good to 450 or so flywheel in an N/A setup. Even the later LS1s are using 75% of their injectors at 58 PSI. From there, with even a low rate Begi (4:1), your pushing 86 PSI of fuel pressure at the 7 PSI you're looking for, and the flow on a Walbro 255 at that point has dropped so far it would be a miracle if it could flow enough for 400 to the wheels.
Your only option would be larger injectors and a lower base pressure.
Factor in that an MSD 6LS to pull timing is about $200 less than HPTuners which gives you FULL fuel/spark control, and you might as well just spend a few extra bucks and do it right the first time.
05-01-2015, 09:47 AM
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Thanks for all the info to stop me from doing something real stupid! lol
After being on this forum and the vette forum I think there is a better option than this set up for a bit more money spent but well worth it.
New game plan I have
hptuners still waiting on some answers from them however I don't know how to use the software at all.
How does the software know when I am in boost with the maf? The corvette has a factory rising regulator on it so I am thinking that will aid in the tuning?
I finally found someone that can tune it but at a hefty price tag $800 to me that means they don't want to do it.
New build up list
80lb injectors
hopefully I can find out if hp tuners will work or not
fuel pump
water meth and so on.
Biggest problem I am having is the tune issue.
After being on this forum and the vette forum I think there is a better option than this set up for a bit more money spent but well worth it.
New game plan I have
hptuners still waiting on some answers from them however I don't know how to use the software at all.
How does the software know when I am in boost with the maf? The corvette has a factory rising regulator on it so I am thinking that will aid in the tuning?
I finally found someone that can tune it but at a hefty price tag $800 to me that means they don't want to do it.
New build up list
80lb injectors
hopefully I can find out if hp tuners will work or not
fuel pump
water meth and so on.
Biggest problem I am having is the tune issue.
05-01-2015, 12:11 PM
#12
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You've never said what year your vette is or why you think it can't be tuned.
HPTuners for me had a bit of a learning curve. You can get a plug and play 3 bar map sensor for your intake from EFISource for like $40. From there, you can easily delete the MAF and convert to a speed density tune. There are lots of GT45 powered LS1s with 80 lb injectors out there. You could download a base tune and get the car fired up and run 7-8 lbs of boost no problem with minor tuning changes. The sloppy mechanics wiki probably has a couple of base tunes that would get you fired right up with the 80 lb injectors and get you fairly close AFR/timing wise in low boost.
Your other option is to get a microsquirt kit from EFI Source. You can get a microsquirt ecu with a harness that you wire yourself for $400. $800 scores you a full plug and play kit. No need to purchase credits like HPTuners, and the sloppy wiki should have tunes for that as well. Microsquirt is far more capable than HPTuners. I wouldn't even consider HPTuners unless you have an electronically controlled automatic in the vette and want to let the stock computer control it.
HPTuners for me had a bit of a learning curve. You can get a plug and play 3 bar map sensor for your intake from EFISource for like $40. From there, you can easily delete the MAF and convert to a speed density tune. There are lots of GT45 powered LS1s with 80 lb injectors out there. You could download a base tune and get the car fired up and run 7-8 lbs of boost no problem with minor tuning changes. The sloppy mechanics wiki probably has a couple of base tunes that would get you fired right up with the 80 lb injectors and get you fairly close AFR/timing wise in low boost.
Your other option is to get a microsquirt kit from EFI Source. You can get a microsquirt ecu with a harness that you wire yourself for $400. $800 scores you a full plug and play kit. No need to purchase credits like HPTuners, and the sloppy wiki should have tunes for that as well. Microsquirt is far more capable than HPTuners. I wouldn't even consider HPTuners unless you have an electronically controlled automatic in the vette and want to let the stock computer control it.
05-01-2015, 07:00 PM
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You've never said what year your vette is or why you think it can't be tuned.
HPTuners for me had a bit of a learning curve. You can get a plug and play 3 bar map sensor for your intake from EFISource for like $40. From there, you can easily delete the MAF and convert to a speed density tune. There are lots of GT45 powered LS1s with 80 lb injectors out there. You could download a base tune and get the car fired up and run 7-8 lbs of boost no problem with minor tuning changes. The sloppy mechanics wiki probably has a couple of base tunes that would get you fired right up with the 80 lb injectors and get you fairly close AFR/timing wise in low boost.
Your other option is to get a microsquirt kit from EFI Source. You can get a microsquirt ecu with a harness that you wire yourself for $400. $800 scores you a full plug and play kit. No need to purchase credits like HPTuners, and the sloppy wiki should have tunes for that as well. Microsquirt is far more capable than HPTuners. I wouldn't even consider HPTuners unless you have an electronically controlled automatic in the vette and want to let the stock computer control it.
HPTuners for me had a bit of a learning curve. You can get a plug and play 3 bar map sensor for your intake from EFISource for like $40. From there, you can easily delete the MAF and convert to a speed density tune. There are lots of GT45 powered LS1s with 80 lb injectors out there. You could download a base tune and get the car fired up and run 7-8 lbs of boost no problem with minor tuning changes. The sloppy mechanics wiki probably has a couple of base tunes that would get you fired right up with the 80 lb injectors and get you fairly close AFR/timing wise in low boost.
Your other option is to get a microsquirt kit from EFI Source. You can get a microsquirt ecu with a harness that you wire yourself for $400. $800 scores you a full plug and play kit. No need to purchase credits like HPTuners, and the sloppy wiki should have tunes for that as well. Microsquirt is far more capable than HPTuners. I wouldn't even consider HPTuners unless you have an electronically controlled automatic in the vette and want to let the stock computer control it.
vette is a 97 4l60e so the megasquirt would require the separate trans controller to do that. I did find a place today that says they can tune it with an outstanding price of $800 plus! I also emailed hp tuner have not got a reply yet. If it works I think that's the way I will go. The $800 tune was black dog speed shop. I did find another shop 6 hours away that can do it for $400 but after gas hotel etc I will be nearing that $800 rather quickly. I do like the idea of getting into tuning my self. I don't understand how the credits work? Every time I make a small change does it take a credit? Or is it just for different vehicles say I want to tune my truck as well?
Thanks for the base tune I didn't even know there would be free ones out there.
05-01-2015, 07:11 PM
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looks like I have 2 to choose from? I think the one I need
is with the pigtail? bottom link
http://www.efisource.com/shop/ls1-st...ar-map-sensor/
http://www.efisource.com/shop/gm-sty...sor-w-pigtail/
is with the pigtail? bottom link
http://www.efisource.com/shop/ls1-st...ar-map-sensor/
http://www.efisource.com/shop/gm-sty...sor-w-pigtail/
05-02-2015, 10:45 AM
#15
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The top one is a direct plug and play. Goes in stock location, stock harness connector used.
I'm not sure how HPTuners handles the 97/98 cars. I'm guessing you could always swap to a newer style computer with a couple of hours worth of work.
I'm not sure how HPTuners handles the 97/98 cars. I'm guessing you could always swap to a newer style computer with a couple of hours worth of work.