Need4Camaro

iTrader: (1)

I'm going to be replacing both of my window motors per my interior project upgrade. My passenger side motor is bad. I need to take both door panels off to complete this upgrade so Im going to take both motors while I'm at it.

I intended on installing a plate to support the bolts that were installed here. Also there's only 3 bolts when there should be 4 Rivets, but where should the 4th Rivet be and can I use a bolt in its place with the plates installed?

Looking at this, Am I still able to get away with washers or will I need a plate at this point? Also, is the cutout for the plate the same on both sides of the door? (inside and outside) as I understand you need two plates per door..and how do they install the plate on the inside of it?

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Overview
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Does it look like any of the fiberglass has been eaten? I'm especially concerned about those bolts on the left.
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Deeper look, Why are there two holes here but bolts only in 1 hole each? Does anything need to be corrected here?
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Second & Third photo looks like there is a bolt or rivet missing here. Am I safe to just install a bolt here upon installing a plate or will it be more in-depth than that?
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On the side note, my door lock rod is very loose.. is this normal?

farmington

iTrader: (14)

don't overthink this. unbolt a motor, replace with same fasteners and washers. done. no need for plates or anything else.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Your door looks fine. Whoever removed the original rivets did it with a grinder, which would not have been my choice... but it doesn't look like they removed too much material.

Replacing those bolts with more bolts is asking for future disaster. I assume you have seen the plate thread? Have you seen the threads that instruct on how to use the proper rivets?

I highly recommend riveting the regulators properly back to the door with the correct GM rivets. From there, use the shbox method to drill benign holes in the door and change the motor that way. You can use bolts to attach the regulator to the motor and the shbox method will make any future motor changes a 5 minute proposition.


Those door rods do flop around a bit. The sleeves on them should be positioned to keep them from rattling. The rods should also not come out easily. There should be colorful plastic locks that keep them engaged in their receptacles. If you are missing one, they can be had in the HELP! section of your local parts store. Just compare both sides of your car to see what should be there.

Need4Camaro

iTrader: (1)

Will using rivets cause any issues during future repairs? with drilling them out and enlargenining the fiberglass hole? If so should I be safe with just re-using the existing bolts there and including washers?

Also should I go and install that 4th missing bolt or can you think of a reason that it wasn't installed?

RockinWs6

When ever I do one of these I always use silicone adhesive on everything that gets bolted to anything. It helps hold everything in place and stop any hardware from coming loose.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

If you follow the shbox method for changing your motors, there should be no need to do any future repairs where you'd need to drill out the regulator rivets. The regulators are bomb-proof and you can lubricate them with them staying in place.

I drilled mine out three times before the holes started to enlarge. (If you are careful, they don't enlarge from the drill bit - they get the damage when the drilled out rivet spins in the hole as you are drilling out.)


Using bolts does damage over time. The special rivets have a steel mandrel (strong/solid) wrapped in an aluminum jacket, which deforms to the soft door material. Bolts are irregular, hard, don't fully fill the hole, and put stress on the material at the threads. Using bolts will eventually do this?

https://ls1tech.com/forums/general-m...-included.html


It probably fell out or the regulator behind it is damaged. If you take out the door speaker, you can get in there with a mirror and a flash light and find out.

Lup

Michael,

If you are going to replace the motors WITHOUT removing the regulator, I would replace the bolts with rivets one at a time. Doing this would also (probably) mean you have to drill 3 holes to gain access to the 3 small motor to regulator machine bolts or rivets if motor is original.

The first pic is of the driver's door with correct placed rivets. I'm not sure why there's extra holes next to the rivet holes. I can take pic of the passenger's door if you would like.





The hold down rubber bracket for the door handle rod and lock rod. (lock rod not pictured) This is a 1994 door..





This pic of the 4 rivet holes of the regulator (circled in orange). Your door only has 3 fasteners, this pic showing you need the 4th fastener.





The rivet size you need is 1/4 inch rivets and metals as described by wssix99 post. To install a rivet this size, you need a large rivet tool. As seen in this picture, this is almost 2 feet long. Air rivet tools exist, but are very expensive, even at the cheap stores. Maybe you can borrow or rent this tool at an auto parts store




My 2 cents.
1. If the holes are still round after bolt removal, and not oval or damaged I would do as follows- Replace the bolts with rivets, one at a time. (Note- the rivet holes in the fiberglass door are slightly larger than the rivet) As long as the holes look ok, I'd see no issues installing rivets without any washers or the "repair" plate as some members have done.

2. Remove the old motor with regulator still in the door. I'm assuming this motor has been replaced before, since the regulator doesn't have original rivets. Replacement motors come with small machine bolts with small nuts. You might be able to remove the 3 small machine bolts without drilling access holes in the door. If not, drill the 3 holes to access the 3 small bolts for removal.
Original motors had 3 small rivets holding them to the regulator. Replacements, even at the GM dealer came with the 3 small bolts


Good luck
Kyle

Need4Camaro

iTrader: (1)

Welp guys I've run into trouble.
Whoever replaced my driverside Window Motor / Regulator was a moron. They removed the whole regulator just so they could "screw in" a new window motor instead of just drilling holes in the door to insert the screws.

It's quite apparent that whoever did this last took the whole regulator out to replace the window motor. For the missing 4th bolt, it appears that the entire regulator is mis-aligned as after I felt for it, the hole on the regulator is a decent bit higher than the hole for it in the door.. meaning it's not properly installed...

Before I started drilling holes, I felt the back of the window motor itself and instead of rivets, I found nuts. but since they were screw holes on the front I had to drill out the door anyway. I managed to get the lower two nuts off without to much issue, but the upper nut appears to be rounded off. No socket will go over it. The closest one that will is a metric 5/16 and if I so much as turn it, it just rounds off without gripping the nut.

I tried drilling the screw out but my drill isnt strong enough... My last ditch effort will be an open end wrench.. I'm very worried that I may have to remove the regulator... how much more difficult will that be?

Lup

bump the window down to relieve stress from the glass being up all the way. I think this will help you remove the last nut. It should be a regulator nut with a star washer. Once it's loosened a little, it should able to take out by hand.
Please post pictures of the inside of the door where the regulator hole is.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

^ This will help. Taking the speaker out of the door will also give you some better access.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

This doesn't make them a moron.

This is Kosher and is the official GM Factory Service procedure. It works OK for cars under warranty, but... isn't so great for a car that exceeds it's shelf life and needs the motor replaced over and over and over and over and over again. After a few times, this starts to wear on the door. (Obviously, the car wasn't designed for serviceability of the motor.)


This makes them a moron.

When you get the regulator properly lined up, you will need to re-adjust the window. Adjusting all the stops in the proper order is crucial, so you'll want to follow the shbox guide for this: http://shbox.com/1/adj_window.html

Need4Camaro

iTrader: (1)

I'll try to post the pictures I took tomorrow. I have a ton of them Im just real tired right now plus major neck ache from sleeping wrong.

Anyway, I managed to get the window motor out.. i needed an open end 5/16 wrench to grip the only side of the nut that wasn't rounded. Unfortunately, upon putting the new one in, I fudged up and dropped a screw in the regulator and unfortunately I did not hear it fall into the bottom of the door so it's in the regulator.. I felt my hand all around the regulator but couldn't find it but I can hear it when I bang on the door and its clanking between the fiberglass and the regulator. I could easily just replace the screw but I'm worried about this screw being in the way of / impeding moving parts and damaging my regulator.

I have never removed a window regulator before, should I attempt to do this to save the lost screw and realign the regulator and entire window or should I just replace the screw and move on?

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

^ I've done this before. Try using a magnet to get the hardware out first. Taking the regulator out isn't impossible, but it's a little bit of a PITA and requires a helper.

If you do go for taking the regulator out...
- Have a helper hold the glass so it doesn't drop in the door and shatter. The regulator is the only thing supporting it.
- Lower the window half-way, if you can.
- Unook the electrical connection to the motor through the hole in the door where the speaker mounts.
- Unbolt the regulator so its only hanging on the single hook that holds in the center hold in the door composite.
- Lift the regulator up, taking the hook off the door and slide the regulator assembly out of the big rear hole. There are three rollers on the regulator. Two will slide out of the track attached to the window and one will slide out of the track attached to the inner door panel.
- If you then decide to take the motor off with the regulator out - BE CAREFUL. The regulator is spring loaded and the motor is the only thing that keeps it cocked. You'll need to put a very large bolt through the holes in the inner and outer regulator arm/panel holes to "lock" it in place so the clock spring doesn't unwind (and take your fingers off) when you remove the motor.

^ If you don't see what this last point means, don't proceed.

^ This isn't an issue with the shbox motor replacement method because the weight of the window glass balances the regulator clock spring when the motor is out of the door.

Need4Camaro

iTrader: (1)

Currently I have a C-Clamp (shoebox method) supporting the actual glass of the window, its clamped between the top of the door frame and the window itself. Will that be enough or will I need someone to actually hold the glass?

I can't lower or raise the window in its current position as I removed the old motor.

Since the old motor is already removed do I still need to worry about losing my fingers?

Is it possible I could just loosen the regulator just enough to reposition it and get that screw out of there?

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Whatever you do, don't remove the regulator without the motor attached. It's very dangerous and the regulator spring will explode/unwind. It's possible to fix that (if yo keep your fingers) but it often ruins the regulator.

It's hard to tell what you are dealing with without pictures... which I imagine are near impossible for you to take well, but you should be able to use an inspection mirror (with the door speaker out) to get the loose screw out.

I would also not fish for the hardware unless you have the regulator secured with at least two bolts. (even temporarily). It can slip off the hook easily and, without the motor on to keep the assembly solid, the regulator could come apart if that happens.

MY_2K_Z

iTrader: (1)

Lol metric 5/16
Every car I've had has had window motors replaced by idiots that screw it all up so your not alone.
Again metric 5/16? Good laugh thanks

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Get one of these flexible probe magnets. (Most hardware stores should have one.) You should be able to fish blind with it, sticking it down from the top of the door, between the panel and the glass and come back out with the loose hardware. (This is what worked for me.)

Need4Camaro

iTrader: (1)

Welp... I've gone and done it... I'm now missing a hand...

j/k...

I managed get the screw out with magnet, just rubbed it around where I thought it was for about 15 minutes and it literally flew out of a fiberglass hole. I am in process of putting the new motor in. I decided Im not going to mess with the regulator.. I'll just have to deal with the wind noise or have a professional shop do it after I tell them exactly how I want it done...

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

High Five.




I think you'll just end up more disappointed and run the possibility that the "professional" will leave your door more messed up. Professional mechanics are professional money makers - not car restoration experts. They won't follow the instructions - but you can invest the time to do so.

For the money that you'll spend, you can get a proper riveter and buy the correct rivets from a GM dealer. Menards sells the riveter for around $50, the last time I checked.

Need4Camaro

iTrader: (1)

So.. I'm removing my regulator because I want to install it the correct way. I'm just going to replace it altogether so I won't need to worry about it for awhile. I got all the bolts off of it and also supported the window with door bump stops. I unbolted the rear guide channel from the door (but not the window) and so forth. I am having difficulties getting the rollers to roll out of the track, actually...they won't roll at all. How do I get these things to move so I can get them out of their guides?