Dart 205 v AFR 215
03-03-2015, 01:52 PM
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Dart 205 v AFR 215 I have a LS1 forged motor 6 speed manual that I have just changed heads from Dart 205 as cast to AFR 215 cnc ported heads.
EPS 226/230/114+4 cam
Fast 102 manifold and throttle body
1-7/8 long tubes with single 3-1/2 exhaust
With the Dart 205 heads it made 389 whp. and after fitting the AFR 215 cnc ported heads it made 409 whp, on the same Mainline Dynolog Dyno.
I think that a 20 hp gain for the amount of money it cost it was hardly worth it.
Maybe the Dart heads are better than people think?
I live in Australia and am told that the Dynos down here usually read lower than in the USA.
EPS 226/230/114+4 cam
Fast 102 manifold and throttle body
1-7/8 long tubes with single 3-1/2 exhaust
With the Dart 205 heads it made 389 whp. and after fitting the AFR 215 cnc ported heads it made 409 whp, on the same Mainline Dynolog Dyno.
I think that a 20 hp gain for the amount of money it cost it was hardly worth it.
Maybe the Dart heads are better than people think?
I live in Australia and am told that the Dynos down here usually read lower than in the USA.
03-03-2015, 02:24 PM
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Dart heads are pretty good, that said 20 HP is pretty good gain.
What is compression and Torque,HP Peaks. Can you post Graphs?
Mid Length Runners for your FAST when available + a Low Lash
Solid Roller from CAMMOTION/EPS should add 35+HP & 1000+
RPM. Even a Bigger HR ~235*/239* should add 25+ W aforementioned
Runners. Dyno does seem to read 8-12% lower then typical US DynoJet #s.
Make sure you have the right Y Pipe & Merge, as the wrong one can
Lose 20HP or more. F Body guys can give more info as to the best ones.
What is compression and Torque,HP Peaks. Can you post Graphs?
Mid Length Runners for your FAST when available + a Low Lash
Solid Roller from CAMMOTION/EPS should add 35+HP & 1000+
RPM. Even a Bigger HR ~235*/239* should add 25+ W aforementioned
Runners. Dyno does seem to read 8-12% lower then typical US DynoJet #s.
Make sure you have the right Y Pipe & Merge, as the wrong one can
Lose 20HP or more. F Body guys can give more info as to the best ones.
03-03-2015, 02:28 PM
#5
The Dart heads have always been a very viable option. You can't believe all the bull **** that people post about them. Most of those guys don't know their *** from a hole in the ground. Ed Curtis, and many other well know names in the LSx world, have stated that the Dart castings are very good, especially with a little porting. I have the Advanced Induction Dart/RHS fully CNC'd heads, and they are great. Dart was bought out by RHS, so the old Dart castings now have RHS branded on them. You would have been better off sending in your Dart 205cc heads to Phil at Advanced Induction and letting him do the CNC port work on them, which would have put them at 223cc, and likely made way more power than the heads you have now, all being less expensive. Hindsight is always 20/20 though. The AFR heads are no joke either, but I know what they cost, and to only pick up 20 HP, not worth it in my book either. The funny thing is just by looking at the cam specs, that appears to be a cam that many of the AFR guys would suggest. A lot of people will argue that it's all the cam's fault and that the cam specs are way off for what the AFR heads like, but that cam seems to be a pretty good pairing for the AFR heads.
03-03-2015, 03:24 PM
#6
G'day hansomeden,
I would have thought 20hp is a pretty good gain going from a Dart to an AFR, Darts are known to be pretty good heads at least in small block Chev land. It's probably not a great gain for the bucks you've now spent (I suspect 3K+ over here) but it's the law of diminishing returns once the power levels are moving up unfortunately. It might have been worth having the Darts hand ported, you possibly would have got a similar gain but for less money assuming there's enough room for improvement in them.
I've got a couple of questions if you don't mind, how do you find the cam, it's pretty conservative by most standards, I imagine it would drive really well and make great power through the range, also who did the tunes for you, I would assume Hi-Torque seeing that you're down the coast, thanks and good luck.
P.S. If it was Hi-Torque, my mate's Statesman made about 395rwhp there with a bigger cam and ran 11:83 at 116mph at around 4000lbs so your car should be pretty damn fast.
Best wishes,
Jason.
I would have thought 20hp is a pretty good gain going from a Dart to an AFR, Darts are known to be pretty good heads at least in small block Chev land. It's probably not a great gain for the bucks you've now spent (I suspect 3K+ over here) but it's the law of diminishing returns once the power levels are moving up unfortunately. It might have been worth having the Darts hand ported, you possibly would have got a similar gain but for less money assuming there's enough room for improvement in them.
I've got a couple of questions if you don't mind, how do you find the cam, it's pretty conservative by most standards, I imagine it would drive really well and make great power through the range, also who did the tunes for you, I would assume Hi-Torque seeing that you're down the coast, thanks and good luck.
P.S. If it was Hi-Torque, my mate's Statesman made about 395rwhp there with a bigger cam and ran 11:83 at 116mph at around 4000lbs so your car should be pretty damn fast.
Best wishes,
Jason.
I have a LS1 forged motor 6 speed manual that I have just changed heads from Dart 205 as cast to AFR 215 cnc ported heads.
EPS 226/230/114+4 cam
Fast 102 manifold and throttle body
1-7/8 long tubes with single 3-1/2 exhaust
With the Dart 205 heads it made 389 whp. and after fitting the AFR 215 cnc ported heads it made 409 whp, on the same Mainline Dynolog Dyno.
I think that a 20 hp gain for the amount of money it cost it was hardly worth it.
Maybe the Dart heads are better than people think?
I live in Australia and am told that the Dynos down here usually read lower than in the USA.
EPS 226/230/114+4 cam
Fast 102 manifold and throttle body
1-7/8 long tubes with single 3-1/2 exhaust
With the Dart 205 heads it made 389 whp. and after fitting the AFR 215 cnc ported heads it made 409 whp, on the same Mainline Dynolog Dyno.
I think that a 20 hp gain for the amount of money it cost it was hardly worth it.
Maybe the Dart heads are better than people think?
I live in Australia and am told that the Dynos down here usually read lower than in the USA.
Last edited by Jase01; 03-03-2015 at 03:35 PM.
03-03-2015, 04:01 PM
#7
Guys,
Seriously.....I'm surprised the general consensus isn't ALOT more positive.
Whats a set of Dart cost?? Last I checked around 2K?
The AFR 215's cost $2400 ish
20 HP for $400 is an absolute homerun.....20 HP at twice that price represents a great investment (still borders on cheap HP per $$ spent).
Do I have to remind you how many guys spend close to 2K for a ported 102 and a larger 102 mm TB to pick up 20-25 HP.
OP.....You should be thrilled.....thats a great gain for the money spent.....the AFR's made 20 more than another aftermarket performance head.....not a lame in comparison OEM head.
Would also like to see the actual curves overlayed on top of one another.....peak power is only one small part of the overall picture.
Keeping it real.....
Tony Mamo signing off
Seriously.....I'm surprised the general consensus isn't ALOT more positive.
Whats a set of Dart cost?? Last I checked around 2K?
The AFR 215's cost $2400 ish
20 HP for $400 is an absolute homerun.....20 HP at twice that price represents a great investment (still borders on cheap HP per $$ spent).
Do I have to remind you how many guys spend close to 2K for a ported 102 and a larger 102 mm TB to pick up 20-25 HP.
OP.....You should be thrilled.....thats a great gain for the money spent.....the AFR's made 20 more than another aftermarket performance head.....not a lame in comparison OEM head.
Would also like to see the actual curves overlayed on top of one another.....peak power is only one small part of the overall picture.
Keeping it real.....
Tony Mamo signing off
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www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
Trending Topics
03-03-2015, 04:06 PM
#8
Ai 223cc Dart/RHS LSx w/ .660" Lunati Dual Spring Kit w/ Steel Retainers - Cost: $1745
Ai 223cc Dart/RHS LSx w/ .660" BTR Dual Spring Kit w/ Titanium Retainers - Cost: $1845
Ai 223cc Dart/RHS LSx w/ .700" Manley Nextek Dual Spring Kit w/ Titanium Retainers - Cost: $1995
Heads, valves, spring kit, and all the CNC work for less than $2,000.
Or, $895 for just the CNC port work if you send in your existing Dart heads.
Ai 223cc Dart/RHS LSx w/ .660" BTR Dual Spring Kit w/ Titanium Retainers - Cost: $1845
Ai 223cc Dart/RHS LSx w/ .700" Manley Nextek Dual Spring Kit w/ Titanium Retainers - Cost: $1995
Heads, valves, spring kit, and all the CNC work for less than $2,000.
Or, $895 for just the CNC port work if you send in your existing Dart heads.
03-03-2015, 04:17 PM
#9
I've never seen stellar results from out of the box dart heads, I researched them for months with hardly and positive results, to the point where Damian says to just steer clear of them and spend your money on another set of heads. Most of the searches you find will be results from years ago, I don't know much about them being ported because their isn't much that turns up when you try and search it.
03-03-2015, 04:41 PM
#10
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"Choose the HEADS and then match the CAM"
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...5-results.html
Read page 1 and then move to page 10-11.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...5-results.html
Read page 1 and then move to page 10-11.
Last edited by Cold Zero; 03-03-2015 at 07:28 PM.
03-03-2015, 05:36 PM
#11
The cam he's got is fine, look at Tony's thread for the engine that made nearly 490rwhp, it's probably not as big as nearly everyone on this site and the world over wants to stuff in a street engine but it would make fantastic torque and power right through the range, especially with the AFR's.
You certainly couldn't call it a disappointing result overall, maybe just a bit for the OP for the money he's spent recently, that's what I think he meant at least. If he'd bought the AFR's at the start, or maybe just had the Darts ported, he'd be better off financially. Maybe he can sell the Darts for a good price and offset the cost of the AFR's a bit, then that result will look pretty sweet indeed, especially if it's got that 20hp gain or more right through the power range.
Best wishes,
Jason.
You certainly couldn't call it a disappointing result overall, maybe just a bit for the OP for the money he's spent recently, that's what I think he meant at least. If he'd bought the AFR's at the start, or maybe just had the Darts ported, he'd be better off financially. Maybe he can sell the Darts for a good price and offset the cost of the AFR's a bit, then that result will look pretty sweet indeed, especially if it's got that 20hp gain or more right through the power range.
Best wishes,
Jason.
"Choose the HEADS and then match the CAM"
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...5-results.html
Ready page 1 and then move to page 10-11.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...5-results.html
Ready page 1 and then move to page 10-11.
Last edited by Jase01; 03-03-2015 at 06:04 PM.
03-03-2015, 05:43 PM
#12
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I bought the Dart heads 2 years ago bare blemished as cast for $800 valves$210 and Lunati springs came in cam kit so about $1450 Aust.The AFR 215 Cnc heads cost $3200 Aust. dollars 2 months ago. The motor is in a BMW E36 so it does go well, I just expected a bit more power gain over an as cast head to a bigger port cnc head.the heads were milled 30 tho. And gasket is Cometic 40 tho. The Darts had 10.8 comp. and now 11.3 with AFR. There is 20+ HP and torque gain through most of the rev range.the car drives great with this cam and is smoother with the AFR heads
03-03-2015, 05:53 PM
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The cam he's got is fine, look at Tony's thread for the engine that made nearly 490rwhp, it's probably not as big as nearly everyone on this site and the world over wants to stuff in a street engine but it would make fantastic torque and power right through the range, especially with the AFR's.
You certainly couldn't call it a disappointing result overall, maybe just a bit for the OP for the money he's spent recently, that's what I think he meant at least. If he'd bought the AFR's at the start, or maybe just had the Darts ported, he'd be better off financially. If he can sell the Darts for a good price and offset the cost of the AFR's a bit, that result will look pretty sweet indeed, especially if it's got that 20hp gain or more right through the power range.
Best wishes,
Jason.
You certainly couldn't call it a disappointing result overall, maybe just a bit for the OP for the money he's spent recently, that's what I think he meant at least. If he'd bought the AFR's at the start, or maybe just had the Darts ported, he'd be better off financially. If he can sell the Darts for a good price and offset the cost of the AFR's a bit, that result will look pretty sweet indeed, especially if it's got that 20hp gain or more right through the power range.
Best wishes,
Jason.
I'm not calling it (Disappointed). 20 rwhp gain swapping from aftermarket to another one is great increase. But if the OP was looking for better results he need to "Optimize" his package to get the best out of it.
03-03-2015, 06:16 PM
#14
Yeah, I myself really don't see anyone that said the results were "disappointing" so I don't know where that came from.
Once the darts are sold he's not out of a lot of coin, so I'd say the hp/$ is pretty good myself.
And I myself still think the cam is small. I'm WELL AWARE of what tony has done with small cams. Nothing wrong with that. AFR's like small cams for whatever reason...
I ran one much larger and was QUITE happy with my results. Bottom line is I'd get a new cam spec'd for the heads you're *currently* running.
Once the darts are sold he's not out of a lot of coin, so I'd say the hp/$ is pretty good myself.
And I myself still think the cam is small. I'm WELL AWARE of what tony has done with small cams. Nothing wrong with that. AFR's like small cams for whatever reason...
I ran one much larger and was QUITE happy with my results. Bottom line is I'd get a new cam spec'd for the heads you're *currently* running.
03-03-2015, 08:23 PM
#19
The Dart heads have always been a very viable option. You can't believe all the bull **** that people post about them. Most of those guys don't know their *** from a hole in the ground. Ed Curtis, and many other well know names in the LSx world, have stated that the Dart castings are very good, especially with a little porting. I have the Advanced Induction Dart/RHS fully CNC'd heads, and they are great. Dart was bought out by RHS, so the old Dart castings now have RHS branded on them. You would have been better off sending in your Dart 205cc heads to Phil at Advanced Induction and letting him do the CNC port work on them, which would have put them at 223cc, and likely made way more power than the heads you have now, all being less expensive. Hindsight is always 20/20 though. The AFR heads are no joke either, but I know what they cost, and to only pick up 20 HP, not worth it in my book either. The funny thing is just by looking at the cam specs, that appears to be a cam that many of the AFR guys would suggest. A lot of people will argue that it's all the cam's fault and that the cam specs are way off for what the AFR heads like, but that cam seems to be a pretty good pairing for the AFR heads.
03-03-2015, 08:43 PM
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Jase o1,
yes I live on the gold coast and Hi Torque did tune it.Ash, their tuner said that not many 5.7s.make over 400whp.on their Dyno.I am happy with the way it drives.It only weighs about 3,250lbs. so it is fairly fast.I do a few track days but I have not been to the Drag track as I still have the BMW diff 3.7 and I think that will be the weakest link.
yes I live on the gold coast and Hi Torque did tune it.Ash, their tuner said that not many 5.7s.make over 400whp.on their Dyno.I am happy with the way it drives.It only weighs about 3,250lbs. so it is fairly fast.I do a few track days but I have not been to the Drag track as I still have the BMW diff 3.7 and I think that will be the weakest link.