98WS6Hville

iTrader: (7)

I decided to mess around against a 5.0 last night, and the guy trolled me the whole time. Acted like he was just barely able to hang on, then zoomed off. I rolled down my window to say nice car, and he continues to troll me by saying "Dude, I could totally hear your car it sounds nice! It sounds REALLLLLLYYY NICE!" (My car is completely stock and he clearly had longtubes and no cats on his stang).

I want to walk on a 5.0. Obviously it's going to take a lot to get there. Here's a list of mods that I am considering (2004 GTO A4 - Cosmos Purple Metallic). Please give me some input.

1.) CAM - Polluter Cam v1
2.) HEADS- TFS 215 Heads
3.) INTAKE - Fast 102 ported by Tony Mamo
4.) THROTTLE BODY - Fast 102 Throttle Body
5.) LONG TUBES - Kook's 1 3/4 to 1 7/8 merge
6.) DUAL E-CUT OUTS - about 12 to 16" from headers
7.) X PIPE

8.) GEARS - How low should I go with my gearing? I don't mind 4.56, just don't know if that's a good idea or not. My car stays in town (as in I don't ever travel) and I only live 6 miles from my work. Most of my trips consist of highway miles.

9.) STALL - Should I do a 4400 stall? Again, I really don't care about fuel economy. I just want to smack around a 5.0 Mustang.

Obviously there are other parts that I need to be bought. Such as valve springs, pushrods, lifters, etc. I just want to know how this combo would fare out.

Another note, I will be doing weight reductions. GTO's have a lot of stuff that you can take off. I'd like to get it around the weight of an F-body (3400 poundsish). But that's a whole other subject.

Thoughts guys? All help appreciated! Car will be raced on 1/8 mile track. We do not have a 1/4 mile around here.

k_garretson23

iTrader: (8)

a stall, cam, and headers, should be plenty to put a hurting on mild 5.0s. If you actually due what your planning youll hand it to much more than that.

NAVYBLUE210

Why not MMS 220 Heads since you are having Tony Port you a FAST 102?
NW TB have a much better reputation for ease of tuning by members
On this site compared to the Fast TB. Have Tony spec a cam for your
Heads and intake.MMS 220 Heads, Fast 102, Cam, Long Tubes, Exhaust etc
You can pick up 120-150 RWHP to the wheels. With Tonys set-up I
Doubt you would need/benefit from more then ~ 3600 RPM Stall.
You will need to beef up the rear gear/suspension to keep from breaking.
3.90:1 Gears with some weight reduction will be Plenty for your
Goals/Needs.

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

I'd do the v2 Polluter over the v1.

I'd run a 4000 or 4400 stall. They aren't that bad.

I'd run straight 1-7/8" headers. Cutouts aren't necessary if you run a 3" x-pipe with high flow mufflers. If you want something quiet, run the cutouts and an actual muffler vs bullet-type race mufflers.

Heads - TFS 215 are okay, but I'd recommend doing the TFS 220s worked by Tooley with lightweight valves, PM guides, hand porting. It's a better value and won't give up much to anything else.

If you go MMS 220s, get the YT Ultralites with 10mm studs. Otherwise, I'd do stock rockers with BTR Trunions.

3.73 is plenty of gear with an automatic.

TB - I have both the NW and the FAST 102. Both tune the same. The FAST may run out of IAC sooner, messing with cold starts, but it actually drives a little better with the low pressure zone for part throttle.

Easiest way to beat a 5.0 is to install a Money Maker nitrous kit and run a 200 shot.

98WS6Hville

iTrader: (7)

I understand what you're saying. And Tony does do amazing work (hence why I wanted him to port my Fast 102). From what I've read, his heads work better with a 230's duration cam. The TFS heads like the bigger cams. I've looked at tons of dyno graphs, and it seems to me that the Polluter produces much more torque and horsepower than anything else that I've seen from 4k RPM's to redline. Compared to small/big cams that are off the shelf grinds. Hence why I want the Polluter cam. One thing that I've noticed stock, is that the LS1 really doesn't seem to respond well until 4k RPM's up. I've launched the car from 3k RPM's. Not much there. 3500. Not much there. 3800. Not much there. 4000 - 4200 feels amazing. That's why I was looking for a cam that produces great numbers 4k RPM's up to redline. With my GTO having the LS6 bottom end, I can spin the engine a little higher (granted that my valvetrain is built properly with lightweight components) and not have to worry too much. Even when I had my small 224R cam with 243 Heads and Long tubes, I didn't feel much until about 3500 RPM's.

As for the rear, it's not an F-Body. I think I'll be alright with some 3.73's or and 3.9x's. This will be a pretty good debate in my head since stock, these come with 3.43's from the factory (even the automatics). Just need to make sure that I get my money's worth on a 1000 dollar swap. Gears for these cars aren't cheap.. :/

NAVYBLUE210

I think more accurately stated the TFS while very good heads
Need a slightly bigger cam! The MMS heads do not "like"
Smaller cams they just do not need as much duration to deliver
The same or better performance. The sweet spot with the stock
Stroke is about 227*-231* Intake and for NA up to 7000 RPM
with a good exhaust system is +4* more for the exhaust duration.
The MMS220 is perfectly Sized for 5.7-6.0 as well as 383".
The beauty of the small/medium cam with the best heads you
Can get is the throttle response at 2500-3000 RPM along with
Peak Power @ ~ 6500-7000RPM! That's the "Have your cake
& eat it too" scenario that Tony is always talking about. There
Is a thread in the Dyno section "AFR205 make 500+ with auto
And big stall and big cam" that head design is 12+ years and 2
Generation design changes ago.
Check out the MMS220 announcement thread below.

I agree with Jake on the 1 7/8 Headers and the 3.73:1 Gears
Also!

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

The TFS heads have made good power with a 230 duration cam.

In PM, I revised my cam selection to a 228/232 111 StreetSweeper-HT. It'll move the GTO and make plenty of power. Pair with either the MMS 220s or TFS 220s worked by Tooley and then you have something. Just depends on budget. A port-matched FAST by Tooley, worked TFS 220s, and BTR Trunions would be cheaper than MMS 220s, Mamofied FAST, and YT Ultralites. Power difference between the two with that cam would probably be 5-10HP.

NAVYBLUE210

I would guess Tony would spec same/similar cam duration specs
227*/231* but with a 114* LSA + 2-3* ADV. I would bet the different
Head/Intake combos with above cam would be 10-15+ to the Favor of
MMS with better drivability, but less Lope if that is important to the
OP which I suspect might be. Could still do the BTR Trunions or the
CHE Bushings with MMS220s as well.

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

Ed will grind that on whatever you want. It's standard a 111+3. But a 114+3 would be nice.

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

don't buy a cam for lope. you can tune it to a lower idle speed and lower idle timing to lope it. cam it for power

Tuskyz28

Jake.... how much power have you seen the tfs heads (worked over) make with a 230 degree cam?

Just wondering if they can match up to Mamo setup with the 227 cam.....

NAVYBLUE210

Darth_V8r
Good Pt. I totally agree! Power is 10 X more important to me
Than Lope/Sound and tuning for sound is the way to go vs
Camming for sound. I suspect sound is much more important
To OP than me (on the other side of 50 lol).

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

I saw a 230/236 from Rapid Motorsports with TFS 215 (I think milled to 61) with GM MLS gaskets, cats, etc. Make 475/420. Another did 460/420. FAST 90.

The TFS 220s would make close to the 215 numbers. Point is, with everything supporting, I can see more than 470 out of either combo. If you optimize the **** out of it, maybe 480.

500 is hard to do. Harder to replicate on different dynos.

If you're doing an honest 470 with an LS1, your car is going to be pretty damn fast for a 15 year old car.

Tony @ Mamo Motorsports

Jake,

I don't think the as cast 220's out of the box would do as well as you suspect. One pair might but three pair wouldn't.....as cast stuff is inherently all over the place.....too many moving targets and there is usually extra material etc. in as cast trim that effects flow pretty dramatically. Hence the benefit of a CNC program which knocks the "window of fail" down dramatically but even that isn't perfect but alot closer in tolerances than any as cast port.

Trust me on this....its very difficult to get an *** cast port to flow big numbers out of the box. The mark of a really good one is an as cast port that doesn't need alot of work to flow respectable numbers. And by no means am I bagging on the TFS 220....this is a very un-brand specific comment. An AFR as cast BBC is very good but it has its limitations just like I mention although with the AFR as cast BBC we went the extra step and had the bowls optimized with a quick CNC bowl blending program so technically this head was more of a hybrid.....partial CNC ported because of exactly the point I was making above.

Its extremely difficult to get any as cast port out of the box moving alot of air (or should I say close to similar sized heads in CNC trim). I would run a smaller CNC port than a larger as cast port.....area under the curve would be alot stronger and it would make more power as well because the peak flow would be higher in the optimized CNC port assuming it was a decent port design and the CNC replication of that design was done well. The full CNC TFS 215 is a good piece and has proven itself out in the field.

I may be porting a set of cast TFS 220 heads very soon (waiting on the customer to confirm this is the direction he wants to go....he already owns them).....If I get the chance I may update this thread with some stock numbers when I do.

Cheers,
Tony

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

Hey Tony, that's good to hear. I'd like to see what you could do with them.

I'm just going by what Tooley said. He doesn't do a lot of work with them when he cleans them up.

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

I raced a 5.0 a while back. Blew his doors off!

mOtOrHeAd MiKe

iTrader: (8)

Supercharger.

CoolAid

Not racing from 40 will do wonders as well. Get tires and dig race or keep the rolls to a minimum of 50, with 60 being even better with that turd geared 4L60. Racing a 4L60 from 40 would be like racing a T56 from 40 in third gear ratio wise. Modern cars, especially Mustangs, auto or manual are full of positive gear ratios and that will always be the hardest thing for a 4 speed auto car to overcome mod for mod at anything outside of a dig run.

I'm not saying you did run from 40, I'm just warning against it since its everyone's favorite starting point. My point to all this being that you can build power to the moon but if it's not used correctly, you still might be seeing a slower cars tail lights.

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

I like a 10 roll for first gear or about 25 for second. Car takes off like it got rear ended