joblo1978

iTrader: (14)

I got some money to spend and after much debate and research am seriously considering the FI route. I'm not trying to start a war between power adders but I considered nitrous at first. For the price of a good nitrous setup you could go H/C. I really considered a H/C 4.10 rear setup, but have recently decided I don't want a big donkey dick cammed car I gotta rev and shift like a **** to get power. I then found out about the Magnacharger kit in GMHTP and have been going back and forth with Ed. I always wanted a twin-screw setup but they weren't available until fairly recently.

I've read the "cost of FI" thread, read auto mags regularly and have read lots of LS1 literature.

As far as FI goes, how reliable and really consistent is a FI kit sold as they are on a stock internal engine? My car is full bolt-on with tune right now with 64000 miles. FI obviously makes heat and creates wear and tear on parts but I just don't want to bolt a Magnacharger on an otherwise stock valvetrain and be greeted with major issues early on? Some upgrades may be in the future as they're needed and she won't be looking at daily driver duty, but I just need the final push on this to know I'm making a good decision. The cost is quite big and I want something I'm going to be happy with for a good while that I'm not sinking even more money into on a very regular basis.

Someone help please.

Grimes

iTrader: (3)

Well most people around here claim about 500 rwhp is teetering on the line of reliability with a stock bottom end. You should decide for yourself if that's a limit you are happy with.

Schantin

iTrader: (6)

9PSI seems to be the "magical border" between safe and when internal stock parts grenade. Most of the "safety" is in the tune, at least till RWHP reaches 550. On the contrary, a crappy tune will explode at 5PSI. An excellent dead-nuts on tune can withstand 10+PSI, but this is living on borrowed time.

For street use and reliability, no FI is truly reliable. But, keeping the boost on the lower end (7PSI or less) with a good tune will help. You also need to have IAT control (not letting the intake temps get too hot....accomplished with a FMIC, meth, or air-to-water cooler.) Add to that adequate fuel (Most FI uses 42lb minimum and usually 60lb or greater injectors depending on HP/boost). Strong valvetrain components and head studs also will help. ARP rod bolts are another benefit.

In short, there's a lot of variables to what seem an easy Q.

Good luck.

My $0.02 is to kee oth

farmdawg

maggie kits are good to start with, I've been running mine for over 4k miles so far as a daily driver, and have had no issues what so ever so far. The downside to FI is that you get used to it and want to go faster. Ed has probably told you that 7 psi is the most he would recommend for a non-forged bottom-end for regular use. If you are not going to use it for a daily driver then you can get a little wilder, but as schantin said tuning is the key. The maggie can be set-up with a valet switch to keep you out of boost until you flip the switch and mash the loud pedal to the floor. I stay out of boost in my car for the most part and only get into boost when I get in to the pedal every once in a while.

With a maggie and bolt-ons 500rwhp is easy to achieve, then you have to start looking at other upgrades to prevent serious breakage. Ed's kit is all inclusive for the blower install, so things like injectors and such will be in the kit. He willgive you a safe tune, but to truly get the most out of the kit, you have to get it tuned.

Check out the mods in my sig and feel free to pm me with any ????'s

joblo1978

iTrader: (14)

I'm thinking 500 rwhp is about the max that I would want to go and would keep me satisfied for quite awhile. I didn't think it would be that easy with just bolt-ons and a maggie. I'm not looking to push the envelope of the car to the extreme point of breakage.

I'm guessing I should probably pop for some other upgrades as well like titanium springs and pushrods. I'd rather go with a set of assembled heads as well but then I would be adding more stress to the lower half.

My tune won't be mail-order, I have my own tuner that's pretty experienced in FI.

With staying inbetween 450-500 rwhp with a maggie, what else would you guys recommend in additon to....

-Springs
-Pushrods
-Cooler thermostat

joblo1978

iTrader: (14)

How can this be? How can there be no such thing as a "reliable" FI setup? Cars come off of an assembly line with super and turbochargers and 100,000 mile warranties everyday? Granted they're conservative, but I'm looking for just a hair more than conservative. I just want to get the blower on there, get it tuned, and get some better track times until I'm ready to get into more boost later on possibly, when the budget allows and without grenading the engine under some spirited driving.

Is everyone that drives a FI engine just on borrowed time? Could they just blow at any moment? I don't think so

Forged blocks, rotating assemblies, 15 lb. of boost, twin turbos, methanol injection, 550+ plus RWHP with 8 sec. time slips I don't think will ever be in my future. Maybe FI just isn't for me then if that's the case and someone with experience in this should tell me.

What do you guys recommend while installing the Maggie blower to ensure that I get years of enjoyment while getting the most for my money?

Thanks,
John

98Z28MASS

iTrader: (6)

I think everyone is just prepping your for the inevitable. You need to understand that stock stuff will break when you add 200rwhp over stock. Stock 10-bolt rear end can barely handle the power the car makes from the factory so sooner or later that will go. As for the reliablity of the shortblock, its hit or miss. A relatively safe setup would be the maggie at 7-8 psi max, new valve springs (comp 918's at the minimum but i would go with patriot duals), hardened pushrods, fuel pump with 42# injectors, and a really good tune. You might want to even throw in a meth/alky injection kit for added saftey. However, even though some have lived on this setup for a while reliably you never know with FI as some people have had luck pushing 10+psi through the stock shortblock while others have had their shortblocks fly apart at much lower levels. Also, are you a manual or auto? If manual id look into a textralia clutch, if auto you might need to check out a built tranny with a good converter. No one is trying to scare you away from FI it just isnt reasonable to think you can add 200 rwhp to an otherwise stock setup and think that parts will last for a long time. Good luck though and let us know what you choose!

joblo1978

iTrader: (14)

This is what I was looking for and is a good answer to my questions, thanks alot man! But not alot of people have the budget to get EVERYTHING at one time. I'm the kind of guy that has to do it little by little. I want power, am willing to upgrade as I go, and am not totally certain about my goals, but it's no fun if after adding your new parts you blow it up shortly after. Everything for me up to this point has been bolting on things myself and the tune lastly. Just because I can afford a Magnacharger, doesn't mean I can afford a completely forged bottom end and titanium valvetrain right now. Not to mention labor and machining costs.

I feel for the people that post up on here with their tragic engine stories, thrown rods, busted connecting rods, cracked pistons, broken 10 bolts. Because I know that someone isn't going to be able to drive their car for awhile, and is going to have to fork out big bucks to get the car up and running again. Maybe even money they don't have, or will have to borrow. But that's part of the game I guess, doesn't mean you can't be prepared for it and try to mitigate some of the risk.

Car is an M6, and yeah, I've been looking at textralia as well, but I think I have some life left in the stocker.

I know that alot of projects hit the wall when people start becoming unrealistic with wanting too much, having unrealistic expectations, and running out of money. That is something I understand and am trying to avoid. And as you stated above, I don't think it's people getting lucky with their setups but more or less the combo they choose, supporting parts, maintenance, and the way they drive.

Two people can both say they have an identical combo, make similar numbers, run similar times and one grenade their car before the other. Luck? Maybe, maybe not.

So it looks like some valvetrain parts are in order for me with the maggie with the reliability that I'm seeking, springs, pushrods, as far as fuel goes I had planned on a racetronix pump, the kit comes with 42#ers and I have a decent tuner and possibly one other available if necessary. Maybe I might even be the type that doesn't even really need 7-8psi? Maybe 5-6 might keep me in the 450-500 HP range that I'm looking for?

magius231

iTrader: (8)

something you have to remember - when a factory puts out a FI engine, it is NOT built like the standard NA engines they put out...filleted crank journals, forged rods, better bolts, lower compression, etc all go into making sure that thing will last under the added pressure. Even back in the day this was true - go look at the differences between an 87 3.8L NA short block and a short block that came in a Turbo Regal...totally different motor (sometimes even the block metallurgy!)

98Z28MASS

iTrader: (6)

Oh I hear you 100%, when I had my cammed z28 in college & grad school I certainly couldnt have afforded to put an entire car together all at one time, it had to be done as things needed to be replaced. As long as your not absuing the car on a daily basis and you have a good fuel system with a really good tune the car should hold for a decent amount of time, especially if you keep it at max 8 psi. 5-6 psi should get you to around 430-450 rwhp depending on your other mods. If your going to limit the boost to 5-6 psi and your going to be switching in new valvesprings I would say def look into a small blower cam (say maybe something in the 22x/22x range). LT headers, catback, decent blower cam, and maggie at 5-6 psi would be in the 450+ rwhp range. 450+ rwhp would make for a very potent street car. I have been in a 500+ rwhp kenne bell cobra and that was pushing the limits on the street as once you start making over 500+ rwhp in a street car it starts getting scary. I know there are plenty of guys on here with street cars that make well in excess of 500 rwhp, but if you dont have the rear/suspension/tire/experience to handle that much power on the street 500 rwhp is probably the max you want to start with. Also, one thing to keep in mind is that with the maggie kit your going to be limiting your growth potential. The kit, on the right setup, is capable of numbers in excess of 550 rwhp, however much more than that and your creating more heat than power. I would say to also consider the ATI procharger D1SC kit for EPP. People have pushed the D1SC on 400+ CI engines to over 700 rwhp so you would have more room for growth with the D1SC. Just food for thought and good luck with the build!

joblo1978

iTrader: (14)

I understand the maggie is limited in peak numbers, I'm not bothered by that though. I don't personally think running that much boost is cost efficient. And I like the maggie kit for it's simplicity. The fact that you're removing the intake manifold and installing a blower in it's place is an idea that I really like. Makes regular maintenance and other things easier, plus, there are procharged and vortech blown cars all around here. A magnacharger in the circles I'm in would be something different. As you said, 500 RWHP is a sick number to achieve in RWHP. I mean, you're starting to get into supercar territory, and putting the power down to the ground becomes a huge issue at that point.

I'll have to look into blower cams and would consider suggestions.

John

98Z28MASS

iTrader: (6)

Cool sounds like you know what you want and for your application im sure the maggie will be a great fit. There are varying opinions on cams for FI applications. Thunder Racing, Speed Inc, Futral Motorsports, and other sponsors make great blower cams so it all depends on how aggressive a cam you want. If you want near stock idle youd want something like a 220/224 on a 115 lsa (in that range) however you can go with something larger as well for additional power.

joblo1978

iTrader: (14)

Is there a point to running less boost just to pick up NA power from a blower cam? Any other upsides to installing a blower cam other than power?

98Z28MASS

iTrader: (6)

Well there will be less stress on the engine components due to less boost and you will make more power throughout the rpm range. If you are going to just run 5-6 psi on the stock shortblock you will probably make around 425-440 rwhp. Toss is a blower cam and on the same amount of boost you could pick up another 20+ rwhp, which would put you in the 450+ rwhp range. You could also do the same by running 7-8 psi but there would be the additional stress on the engine components. Its all up to you though as to what your ideal setup would be. I just figure if your going to upgrade the springs to patriot duals then might as well throw a decent sized blower cam in as well but its certainly not a necessity.

joblo1978

iTrader: (14)

So are you saying that 25 RWHP from a bigger cam is safer than 25 RWHP from a blower? Does it really matter where it comes from?

jeffboy757

iTrader: (14)

the right cam for an FI app is just smarter... instead of bleeding off boost and saying to yourself, ill just run MORE boost to compensate.. remember boost is pretty much just a measure of backpressure, so just throwing more boost isnt the best thing, when you can get a cam that is much more efficent

joblo1978

iTrader: (14)

Bleeding off boost? What does this mean? Are you saying that without the right cam a certain amount of boost is wasted?

98Z28MASS

iTrader: (6)

Right, lets say you have a cam that is made for an NA application, this will differ from a cam that is built for an FI setup. The rule of thumb in most cases is that a cam with a ton of overlap will bleed off boost during the rpm range and will cost you power. The stock cam isnt a bad FI cam, its just very small and a slightly larger blower cam would benefit you as it would give you more power throughout the RPM band (off and in boost). Again you could do the same by adding additional boost, I just think that if you were going to limit the boost to 5-6 psi a good blower cam would make your setup more fficient/powerful.

joblo1978

iTrader: (14)

Ok, what about reliability of the whole setup? Am I sacrificing engine life by going with less boost and a blower cam as opposed to just more boost?

What kind of numbers and approximate track times do you think a TR blower cam and 5-6 lbs. on a maggie would put down?

98Z28MASS

iTrader: (6)

Im not sure if there has been any back to back testing but id assume that a maggie setup at 5-6 psi with a medium sized blower cam would be more reliable than say the maggie at 8psi as there would be less stress on the engine components. The stress thats usually associated with a cam is on your valvesprings and rods/pistons, but thats a lot more evident when you are NA with a large cam with a lot of lift that you have to rev to 6800+ RPMS to make the most of its powerband. If you have a conservative blower cam again in the 22x/22x range then you wont have to rev the car to the moon to make power, it will just complement the powerband with the maggie IMO. The TR blower cam is a good choice as it should give great idle quality while providing power throught the RPM range. Id say with that cam and a maggie at 6psi and a good tune you would be in the 450+ rwhp range. As for track times I think they would be limited due to lack of traction and the fact that your an M6, however at those power levels you should be able to get into the 11's.