Procharged 403 wont pull past 5500 RPM....
12-10-2010, 10:41 PM
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Procharged 403 wont pull past 5500 RPM.... Looking for opinions, posted the same issues on HPT and GTO forums....
Background: car is a 2004 M6 GTO with a Procharged (P1SC-1) 403CI. Custom CNC AFR 235 heads by Ed Curtis, Ed Curtis cam 224/232 .600/.600 114LSA, T&D Shaft rockers, Wiseco coated pistons 9.25:1 SCR, Rhoads lifters,Callies crank, Compstar rods, LS6 intake, TR 6 plugs gapped to .035, New firecore 50 plug wires, Devils own Meth, squirting a 75% meth mix through 1 7GPH and 1 3GPH nozzle, with an additional 1 GPH nozzle precompressor, JBA shortie headers, flowing thru catless mids and a 2.5" Magnaflow exhaust.
My issue is that I can't seem to get any power beyond 5500RPM? I had similar issues with my old 408 setup which did share several components above...ie Crank, Rods, Cam, Lifters, all engine sensors etc....
With the new 403 installed I took the car to Dynamic Tuning Solutions...AKA EC_tune AKA Doug:hi: for the initial dyno break in and tune. Car only put out 450 HP and was really unhappy about reving much beyond the 5K mark. Took the car home ran a couple of diagnostics and found both Cats were blown:shrug: Installed a pair of Catless mids (for tuning purposes) and started on a "street tune" all seemed well and good, seat of the pants and HP tuner logs looked great. having tuned all I could with 3rd gear "on ramp" pulls, we put it on a superflow dyno this morning. The results were disappointing, although I have gained 200HP from where Doug left off, I still am not getting any linear movement past 5500 RPM?????:banghead: and no DTC's to help pinpoint any issues???
Today's first pull was just under 600 HP, I adjusted the meth controller to delay max Meth flow from 10PSI to 15PSI. This seemed to have helped as HP jumped to the best of the day 652 RWHP. My logged LC1 was showing 10.3 AFR while the tail pipe sniffer showed 10.5..I wouldn't think that was too rich to put the fire out in the holes....but maybe that is part of the issue?? I plan on turning the Meth off, putting the timing back in that Doug had initially and see if that at least lets the motor pull throughout the RPM range.
Given that I have similar issues with two different engines and completely different valvetrain top end...ie heads, springs, rockers etc. could it possibly be sensor or electronics related? could crank or cam shaft information be good up to a certain RPM then change???
In any case I am stumped, looking for all the help I can get. I hope this doesn't turn into a reluctor wheel issue:
next worse case would be the Rhoads lifters, anyone heard of those being an issue at RPM???
Background: car is a 2004 M6 GTO with a Procharged (P1SC-1) 403CI. Custom CNC AFR 235 heads by Ed Curtis, Ed Curtis cam 224/232 .600/.600 114LSA, T&D Shaft rockers, Wiseco coated pistons 9.25:1 SCR, Rhoads lifters,Callies crank, Compstar rods, LS6 intake, TR 6 plugs gapped to .035, New firecore 50 plug wires, Devils own Meth, squirting a 75% meth mix through 1 7GPH and 1 3GPH nozzle, with an additional 1 GPH nozzle precompressor, JBA shortie headers, flowing thru catless mids and a 2.5" Magnaflow exhaust.
My issue is that I can't seem to get any power beyond 5500RPM? I had similar issues with my old 408 setup which did share several components above...ie Crank, Rods, Cam, Lifters, all engine sensors etc....
With the new 403 installed I took the car to Dynamic Tuning Solutions...AKA EC_tune AKA Doug:hi: for the initial dyno break in and tune. Car only put out 450 HP and was really unhappy about reving much beyond the 5K mark. Took the car home ran a couple of diagnostics and found both Cats were blown:shrug: Installed a pair of Catless mids (for tuning purposes) and started on a "street tune" all seemed well and good, seat of the pants and HP tuner logs looked great. having tuned all I could with 3rd gear "on ramp" pulls, we put it on a superflow dyno this morning. The results were disappointing, although I have gained 200HP from where Doug left off, I still am not getting any linear movement past 5500 RPM?????:banghead: and no DTC's to help pinpoint any issues???
Today's first pull was just under 600 HP, I adjusted the meth controller to delay max Meth flow from 10PSI to 15PSI. This seemed to have helped as HP jumped to the best of the day 652 RWHP. My logged LC1 was showing 10.3 AFR while the tail pipe sniffer showed 10.5..I wouldn't think that was too rich to put the fire out in the holes....but maybe that is part of the issue?? I plan on turning the Meth off, putting the timing back in that Doug had initially and see if that at least lets the motor pull throughout the RPM range.
Given that I have similar issues with two different engines and completely different valvetrain top end...ie heads, springs, rockers etc. could it possibly be sensor or electronics related? could crank or cam shaft information be good up to a certain RPM then change???
In any case I am stumped, looking for all the help I can get. I hope this doesn't turn into a reluctor wheel issue:
next worse case would be the Rhoads lifters, anyone heard of those being an issue at RPM??? Last edited by b727pic; 03-11-2011 at 12:11 AM.
12-11-2010, 10:32 AM
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The big jump in timing you see at the end (18*@100 TPS to 35.5*@ 0 TPS) of the run is simply due to getting out of the throttle.
Last edited by b727pic; 12-11-2010 at 10:57 AM.
12-11-2010, 10:39 AM
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I'll bet anything you have a inlet hose collapsing on the blower inlet side. I've seen it more than a handful of times. Seems like they are always prochargers and procharger kits that do it.
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12-11-2010, 10:47 AM
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Last edited by b727pic; 12-11-2010 at 10:59 AM.
12-11-2010, 01:00 PM
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Sounds dumb and obvious, but check your plugs. When mine did similar on the dyno it turned out I had a couple with cracked ceramic(the back two of course...). They were arcing at high revs and the car would break up and fall on its face.
12-11-2010, 04:23 PM
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2 motors same issue? I'm thinking it might be a exhasut backpressure problem, did you use the same exhaust for both motors? Your making 600hp @5000rpm and I question if your exhaust is capable of flowing more without excessive backpressure.
12-12-2010, 10:08 AM
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same JBA shortie header, and after thinking on this and and discussing with EDC, we think its worth doing another NA run or simply pulley up to 6 psi or so and see what happens....
12-12-2010, 12:42 PM
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As you turned more rpm did the boost increase? I don't know much about superchargers but there seems to be alot of issue related to belt slippage and rpm.
12-12-2010, 03:39 PM
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If I stay NGK???
I am only loyal to whatever works best. if NGK is the best plug for FI I will stick with it, if experience has shown there is a better plug for a 2bar setup I would install those.
12-15-2010, 12:18 PM
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New Info Trying not to confuse matters, and making one change at a time. I swapped out pullies.
Old setup: 8" crank x 3.25 blower, 65,000 impeller RPM @ 6500 engine RPM
Yielded: 204 KPA / 14PSI
New setup: 7" crank x 4.25 blower, 43,500 impeller RPM @ 6500 engine RPM
yielded: 134.6 KPA (6400 RPM) / 9.28 PSI
I find it interesting that I lowered the blower impeller speed by 21,500 RPM, yet only lost 4.72 PSI of boost? I did speak with Procharger tech support, they concur that seems about right. I also forgot to factor in I do have a 1GPH meth nozzle pre compressor that may have added a .25-.5 PSI, at max impeller speed the meth spray accounted for 1PSI additional vs no spray.
Old setup: 8" crank x 3.25 blower, 65,000 impeller RPM @ 6500 engine RPM
Yielded: 204 KPA / 14PSI
New setup: 7" crank x 4.25 blower, 43,500 impeller RPM @ 6500 engine RPM
yielded: 134.6 KPA (6400 RPM) / 9.28 PSI
I find it interesting that I lowered the blower impeller speed by 21,500 RPM, yet only lost 4.72 PSI of boost? I did speak with Procharger tech support, they concur that seems about right. I also forgot to factor in I do have a 1GPH meth nozzle pre compressor that may have added a .25-.5 PSI, at max impeller speed the meth spray accounted for 1PSI additional vs no spray.
Last edited by b727pic; 12-15-2010 at 01:57 PM.
12-15-2010, 03:38 PM
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Looking for opinions, posted the same issues on HPT and GTO forums....
Background: car is a 2004 M6 GTO with a Procharged (P1SC-1) 403CI. Custom CNC AFR 235 heads by Ed Curtis, Ed Curtis cam 224/232 .600/.600 114LSA, T&D Shaft rockers, Wiseco coated pistons 9.25:1 SCR, Rhoads lifters,Callies crank, Compstar rods, LS6 intake, TR 6 plugs gapped to .035, New firecore 50 plug wires, Devils own Meth, squirting a 75% meth mix through 1 7GPH and 1 3GPH nozzle, with an additional 1 GPH nozzle precompressor, JBA shortie headers, flowing thru catless mids and a 2.5" Magnaflow exhaust.
My issue is that I can't seem to get any power beyond 5500RPM? I had similar issues with my old 408 setup which did share several components above...ie Crank, Rods, Cam, Lifters, all engine sensors etc....
With the new 403 installed I took the car to Dynamic Tuning Solutions...AKA EC_tune AKA Doug:hi: for the initial dyno break in and tune. Car only put out 450 HP and was really unhappy about reving much beyond the 5K mark. Took the car home ran a couple of diagnostics and found both Cats were blown:shrug: Installed a pair of Catless mids (for tuning purposes) and started on a "street tune" all seemed well and good, seat of the pants and HP tuner logs looked great. having tuned all I could with 3rd gear "on ramp" pulls, we put it on a superflow dyno this morning. The results were disappointing, although I have gained 200HP from where Doug left off, I still am not getting any linear movement past 5500 RPM?????:banghead: and no DTC's to help pinpoint any issues???
Today's first pull was just under 600 HP, I adjusted the meth controller to delay max Meth flow from 10PSI to 15PSI. This seemed to have helped as HP jumped to the best of the day 652 RWHP. My logged LC1 was showing 10.3 AFR while the tail pipe sniffer showed 10.5..I wouldn't think that was too rich to put the fire out in the holes....but maybe that is part of the issue?? I plan on turning the Meth off, putting the timing back in that Doug had initially and see if that at least lets the motor pull throughout the RPM range.
Given that I have similar issues with two different engines and completely different valvetrain top end...ie heads, springs, rockers etc. could it possibly be sensor or electronics related? could crank or cam shaft information be good up to a certain RPM then change???
In any case I am stumped, looking for all the help I can get. I hope this doesn't turn into a reluctor wheel issue:pray: next worse case would be the Rhoads lifters, anyone heard of those being an issue at RPM???
Background: car is a 2004 M6 GTO with a Procharged (P1SC-1) 403CI. Custom CNC AFR 235 heads by Ed Curtis, Ed Curtis cam 224/232 .600/.600 114LSA, T&D Shaft rockers, Wiseco coated pistons 9.25:1 SCR, Rhoads lifters,Callies crank, Compstar rods, LS6 intake, TR 6 plugs gapped to .035, New firecore 50 plug wires, Devils own Meth, squirting a 75% meth mix through 1 7GPH and 1 3GPH nozzle, with an additional 1 GPH nozzle precompressor, JBA shortie headers, flowing thru catless mids and a 2.5" Magnaflow exhaust.
My issue is that I can't seem to get any power beyond 5500RPM? I had similar issues with my old 408 setup which did share several components above...ie Crank, Rods, Cam, Lifters, all engine sensors etc....
With the new 403 installed I took the car to Dynamic Tuning Solutions...AKA EC_tune AKA Doug:hi: for the initial dyno break in and tune. Car only put out 450 HP and was really unhappy about reving much beyond the 5K mark. Took the car home ran a couple of diagnostics and found both Cats were blown:shrug: Installed a pair of Catless mids (for tuning purposes) and started on a "street tune" all seemed well and good, seat of the pants and HP tuner logs looked great. having tuned all I could with 3rd gear "on ramp" pulls, we put it on a superflow dyno this morning. The results were disappointing, although I have gained 200HP from where Doug left off, I still am not getting any linear movement past 5500 RPM?????:banghead: and no DTC's to help pinpoint any issues???
Today's first pull was just under 600 HP, I adjusted the meth controller to delay max Meth flow from 10PSI to 15PSI. This seemed to have helped as HP jumped to the best of the day 652 RWHP. My logged LC1 was showing 10.3 AFR while the tail pipe sniffer showed 10.5..I wouldn't think that was too rich to put the fire out in the holes....but maybe that is part of the issue?? I plan on turning the Meth off, putting the timing back in that Doug had initially and see if that at least lets the motor pull throughout the RPM range.
Given that I have similar issues with two different engines and completely different valvetrain top end...ie heads, springs, rockers etc. could it possibly be sensor or electronics related? could crank or cam shaft information be good up to a certain RPM then change???
In any case I am stumped, looking for all the help I can get. I hope this doesn't turn into a reluctor wheel issue:pray: next worse case would be the Rhoads lifters, anyone heard of those being an issue at RPM???
I would run the car with a tune with out the meth to see what it does
Meth will decrease your afr by 2 points.Go extra rich !
I would lean the afr to 11.50 not 10.5 it is way to rich and can cause detonation too much fuel.
With meth you can add up to 5 degrees of timing from the tune with out the meth.
When meth is sprayed your IAT go down drasticaly.
If you spray too much meth at the start you will run too rich.
The meth is making you afr rich, and can make it not rev.
Are you running straight meth or 50-50?
You need to have the controller settings on the meth set correctly on the timer .
Gap your plugs 0.25