Automotive News, Media & Press - Motor Trend Puts The ZL1 & GT500 to The Test!

Sounds like the ZL1 is a better all around car.... Able to hold consistent times around the track while the Ford begins to break down. Either way both are bad ass cars. Hopefully GM makes a 6th gen Camaro ZL1 & ups the hp since it will weigh less :engarde:


More info from the article here:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1206_2012_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_vs_2013_shelby_gt50 0/viewall.html#ixzz1yzdT5oQm

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233542


2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 vs. 2013 Ford Shelby GT500

http://image.motortrend.com/f/38134673+w569+h356+ar1/2013-Ford-Shelby-Mustang-GT500-2012-Chevrolet-Camaro-ZL1-front-end.jpg


THE STREET

"Be it a back road or the daily commute, the Camaro ZL1 is the better street car. Its magnetorheological shock absorbers offer an impressive performance range, smoothing the impacts of rough pavement in Tour mode and keeping the heavy chassis under control in Sport mode. Senior features editor Jonny Lieberman described it to me as "basically a sportier CTS-V," balancing ride and handling beautifully. The GT500, by contrast, suffers from a stiffer ride and too much vertical motion. Every bump gets your head bobbing up and down as the big Shelby bucks like an unbroken colt. Its two-mode Bilstein shocks are simply too stiff for everyday driving, even in Normal mode."

THE STRIP

"Drag racing, though, is not as cut-and-dry as it sounds. Timing is vitally important, as is traction. Cut a bad 60-foot time, and you might as well abort the race and try again. Still, it's usually a fair bet that all other things being equal, the more powerful car will win. That's certainly the case here. The 662-horsepower GT500 hits 60 mph in 3.5 seconds to the 580-horsepower ZL1's 3.8 seconds. The gap only widens from there, with the GT500 finishing the quarter-mile in 11.6 seconds at a blazing 125.7 mph, trailed by the Camaro at 12.1 seconds and 117.4 mph."

THE TRACK

"While the Mustang was a half-second faster around the track than the ZL1 on its best lap, it couldn't repeat the performance. By the end of the first lap, the brakes had already begun to heat up so badly, we could smell them from the pits as the car passed by on the front straight. By the end of the second lap, the Shelby had lost more than half of its advantage over the ZL1, turning a 1:39.03. By the third lap, the Mustang was behind the Camaro, turning a 1:39.30. The ZL1, meanwhile, never deviated by more than two-tenths of a second."

http://image.motortrend.com/f/roadtests/coupes/1206_2012_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_vs_2013_shelby_gt50 0/38139473+pinline_block/2012-Chevrolet-Camaro-ZL1-2013-Ford-Shelby-GT500-Laguna-Seca-Lap-Map.jpg

They summed it up pretty well:

"It won't end here, though. Many of you probably jumped here to the end to find out who won, and you've already fired up your e-mail, Facebook, Twitter, and MotorTrend.com accounts. You'll dissect this story and all the data and conclusions, looking to support your case. You'll defend or defame us; you'll quote other sources and you'll cancel subscriptions. The musclecar war will continue to rage no matter what we say, and not a single die-hard Mustang or Camaro fan will change camps. Then, when the next-generation Mustang and its long-awaited independent rear suspension debuts, followed by the next-generation, Alpha-platform Camaro, we'll do it all over again. We can't wait."

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1206_2012_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_vs_2013_shelby_gt50 0/viewall.html#ixzz1z5T4Cki7

They picked the ZL1!?!?!?!?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/7722455/480/lulz/impossibru.png?v0
the mustang fanboys have been alerted and are going to log into a GM site to engage a 10 page long thread of excuses, butthurtness and strait up crying over nothing.

:corn::corn:

They picked the ZL1!?!?!?!?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/7722455/480/lulz/impossibru.png?v0
the mustang fanboys have been alerted and are going to log into a GM site to engage a 10 page long thread of excuses, butthurtness and strait up crying over nothing.

Replace Mustang with Camaro and you are right on! Why would they make excuses for their car winning everything shy of personal preference? We are talking performance cars here, not which car is easier for grandma to go for a grocery run :D

I think we should have a few more of these threads.

It's not getting old yet.

Replace Mustang with Camaro and you are right on! Why would they make excuses for their car winning everything shy of personal preference? We are talking performance cars here, not which car is easier for grandma to go for a grocery run :D

Have you not seen the rest of the threads? There are more mustang guys in them then there are GM guys in them, all complaining about the magazine preference.
Then again I guess thats what 20+ years of pent up anger of being owned can do that to ya :judge: :corn:

All I see are Camaro guys trying to say that all of the sudden horsepower doesn't mean shit, it's how fast a car is in the twistys. Where have we ALL heard that from before? Oh yes, the FWD shitbox econocar owners :eyes:

^^^:cheers:for post #7 sorry for the confusion.

^^^:cheers:

x2. :nod: All the Z needs is less weight from the factory to be a decent force in the 1/4. I know it wasnt designed for the 1/4, but that seems to be where everyone is taking them (ironic eh). Regardless, to be down 80+rwhp (in most cases), it holds its own in the corners. I have much respect in that regard. The issue is most people dont auto x or corner carve...

By the way, the GT500 still ran faster times around the track even though the 3rd lap was slightly slower than the fastest ZL1 lap. I hate losing, but it seems the Z is the better (better being more comfortable) car for DDing. All else... well, the times speak for themselves.

x2. :nod: All the Z needs is less weight from the factory to be a decent force in the 1/4. I know it wasnt designed for the 1/4, but that seems to be where everyone is taking them (ironic eh). Regardless, to be down 80+rwhp (in most cases), it holds its own in the corners. I have much respect in that regard. The issue is most people dont auto x or corner carve...

By the way, the GT500 still ran faster times around the track even though the 3rd lap was slightly slower than the fastest ZL1 lap. I hate losing, but it seems the Z is the better (better being more comfortable) car for DDing. All else... well, the times speak for themselves.

There both great cars and will only get better but I think the gt500 will always be faster because it doesn't have a flagship model to hold it back but let ford bring back the GT and that will change things just like when ford had to up the ante to keep the little boss mustang from the being the BOSS in the ford line up. Because of that I feel GM will try to make a better driving and handling car because they know there hands are tied when it comes to beating the gt500 in a straight line nothing they can do about that unless they ditch the vette.:usa:

The Ford GT is on a totally different level than the whole Corvette/Camaro comparison. The ZL1 is already more expensive than a base Corvette, while the GT500 is still almost $100k shy of what the GT was new, about $150k shy of what they are selling for used!

a zl1 appears to be more refined and an outstanding handler.




i doubt id DD either and im sure on a long trip a GT500 isnt bad.



you really cant go wrong with either. ID HAVE TO SAY having 662 hp is tempting.

They picked the ZL1!?!?!?!?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/7722455/480/lulz/impossibru.png?v0
the mustang fanboys have been alerted and are going to log into a GM site to engage a 10 page long thread of excuses, butthurtness and strait up crying over nothing.

I got the alert. Where do you want me to start?

know what really sucks??? historically, all magazines have complained about the mustangs brakes. even the brembos.
when i saw that ford equipped the shelby with 6 piston brembos, i figured that they'd at least be equal to the camaros.

fucking way to fuck up an otherwise fabulous car ford. #$%

Have you not seen the rest of the threads? There are more mustang guys in them then there are GM guys in them, all complaining about the magazine preference.
Then again I guess thats what 20+ years of pent up anger of being owned can do that to ya :judge: :corn:

:judge:

x2. :nod: All the Z needs is less weight from the factory to be a decent force in the 1/4. I know it wasnt designed for the 1/4, but that seems to be where everyone is taking them (ironic eh). Regardless, to be down 80+rwhp (in most cases), it holds its own in the corners. I have much respect in that regard. The issue is most people dont auto x or corner carve...

By the way, the GT500 still ran faster times around the track even though the 3rd lap was slightly slower than the fastest ZL1 lap. I hate losing, but it seems the Z is the better (better being more comfortable) car for DDing. All else... well, the times speak for themselves.

& this is coming from a MUSTANG OWNER :nod:

It seems like it only won due to the superior brakes. Upgrading brakes is one thing, upgrading 100hp while trying to shed over 200lbs is another. And they start at 2 grand difference of one another? I think the Shelby is the real winner, I mean how much do upgraded brakes cost? I got chills when the shelby pulled out of the garage.

know what really sucks??? historically, all magazines have complained about the mustangs brakes. even the brembos.
when i saw that ford equipped the shelby with 6 piston brembos, i figured that they'd at least be equal to the camaros.

fucking way to fuck up an otherwise fabulous car ford. #$%

What do they run for fluid in them? The Mustang hasn't lost any of the braking distance tests, they just start to fade after many laps of hard driving. Motortrend, or some other test, stopped in just 101 feet from 60. That's pretty damn good!

The Ford GT is on a totally different level than the whole Corvette/Camaro comparison. The ZL1 is already more expensive than a base Corvette, while the GT500 is still almost $100k shy of what the GT was new, about $150k shy of what they are selling for used!

It's not about dollars it's about performance and the gt would limit the ability of the gt500 to go as fast as its wants.

The old Ford GT was about even with this new GT500, so if they do make a new one my guess is it's going to have a huge gap in between itself and this GT500. It's not like the Corvette where you have the base, GS, Z06, and ZR1 all coming in at different prices and levels of performance. Aside from that, nobody is cross shopping a $150k+ exotic sports car and a Mustang, two totally different cars, while the Corvette is kind of like a high-end Camaro.

I think we should have a few more of these threads.

It's not getting old yet.:lol: :D ;)

It seems like it only won due to the superior brakes. Upgrading brakes is one thing, upgrading 100hp while trying to shed over 200lbs is another. And they start at 2 grand difference of one another? I think the Shelby is the real winner, I mean how much do upgraded brakes cost? I got chills when the shelby pulled out of the garage.

Did you forget that without the extra performance packs it wouldn't even be close on the track? If all you want is to run it at the strip then yeah I guess the base model would be the way to go especially for the dollar.

What do they run for fluid in them? The Mustang hasn't lost any of the braking distance tests, they just start to fade after many laps of hard driving. Motortrend, or some other test, stopped in just 101 feet from 60. That's pretty damn good!

yea, it is.

but in every test i've read of the shelbys, and boss302's they all say the same thing. brake fade. i thought that was a large part of why they opted to finally go to 6 piston brakes. i don't know what kind of fluid they run though, and i guess that could make a big difference. does anyone know what the zl runs?

as much as i like my fords, stupid little things like this is how they manage to eff it up sometimes, and it's truly agitating.

Aside from that, nobody is cross shopping a $150k+ exotic sports car and a Mustang, two totally different cars, while the Corvette is kind of like a high-end Camaro.


Ford's top dog=GT500
Chevy's top dog=ZR1.......that is why the GT500 will always be faster then the ZL1 regardless of the price difference between between the top 2.

All I see are Camaro guys trying to say that all of the sudden horsepower doesn't mean shit, it's how fast a car is in the twistys. Where have we ALL heard that from before? Oh yes, the FWD shitbox econocar owners :eyes:

I think your just mad that every single magazine has agreed that the ZL1 is a better all around car... wait, they must all be biased, right?:devil::engarde:

If you want to go real fast off the showroom floor, go GT500.

If your wife keeps your nuts in her purse and you don't want to hear as many complaints about "bumpy" roads, go ZL1.

I think your just mad that every single magazine has agreed that the ZL1 is a better all around car... wait, they must all be biased, right?:devil::engarde:

Of course they're biased. Not regarding Ford vs. GM, but about handling and subjective things like "feel" vs. actual performance, and especially straight line performance.

Why do you think cars like the Miata and BRZ/FRS always win comparos despite always having lackluster performance numbers compared to the competition?

I think your just mad that every single magazine has agreed that the ZL1 is a better all around car... wait, they must all be biased, right?:devil::engarde:

Slow is the new fast.

I've posted in one or two of the other types of these threads, so might as well add my $0.02 here:

I think Ford did an outstanding job with the new GT500 :cheers: It has the numbers and performance to back up everything the Shelby name stands for. As for brake fade, only auto x'ers and guys who track their car will notice this (as stated in the article, street braking will not experience fade).

ZL1 seems to be winning the magazine writer's over - biased or not, I am not going to argue the point that each comparison says ZL1 is the all around better car, just not faster (yes we all know the Honda justification here, but the reality is that this car is still fast, just not as fast as the GT500, where the ricers who argued handling generally didn't even handle that well nor could be considered fast in the least /rant).

Having aged a few years since I bought my 99 SS some 12 years ago, I can understand the writer's point. How much are enthusiasts really going to track these cars? There is justification for stoplight racing, highway roll racing, etc, that the ZL1 will lose, and stock for stock I agree mostly. However, not all vehicle enjoyment comes from racing. I am not declaring the ZL1 the winner as performance is first in my books, followed by form and refinement. But I do understand the point that the ZL1 is easier to launch, a better ride and easier to drive at the limit (which is equal to or greater than the GT500 for cornering). So if it's easier to road race the ZL1 to the limit, easier to launch and live with on the street, where 90+% of all driving will occur even with enthusiasts, the magazine writers make a compelling arguement.

I, like most diehard GM guys, would like to see the ZL1 perform at the same level as the GT500 in all areas. So for me, I think the GT500 is the car of choice (though I would own a Vette before a Mustang in this case) in this comparison, as do most posting here.

All I am really saying is I understand the reasons why they picked the Camaro. Maybe Ford should have left out a top speed focus and geared the car a little easier to drive on the street, perhaps upgrade brake pads or rotors??, and put some fatter tires on. Then there would be no arguement at all----then again, the Ford vs Chevy war will always find something to argue about!!

Let's just hope these types of cars continue to be available, there has never been a better time to be a car enthusiast!

if you want to go real fast off the showroom floor, go gt500.

If your wife keeps your nuts in her purse and you don't want to hear as many complaints about "bumpy" roads, go zl1.

sig!!!

If you want to go real fast off the showroom floor, go GT500.

If your wife keeps your nuts in her purse and you don't want to hear as many complaints about "bumpy" roads, go ZL1.

maybe people like what they like and arent concerned what others think.

All I see are Camaro guys trying to say that all of the sudden horsepower doesn't mean shit, it's how fast a car is in the twistys. Where have we ALL heard that from before? Oh yes, the FWD shitbox econocar owners :eyes:

Rationalization is a funny thing. Suddenly king of the muscle car hill is all about a comfortable ride. LMFAO. Speed and performance are so yesterday...... especially if your chosen brand just got raped to the degree that the Shelby raped the Zl1. :nod:

If you want to lose in comfort get a ZL1

Since most of you say that the majority of the runs between these two will be stop light to stop light lets take a look at this part of story....

(When you're putting that much torque to just two tires, these things happen. The Mustang and its extra 75 lb-ft of torque suffer more here, with more wheel spin and more sliding around. As a result, the race is actually very close through the first two gears until the Mustang finally hooks up and walks away in third.

Read more: http://m.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1206_2012_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_vs_2013_shelby_gt50 0/index.html#ixzz1zGESTGSR)

Seems to me like it's going to come down to a drivers race since most stop light to stop light don't see 100mph+ speeds. Now just think about how much easier it will be for a auto ZL1 to hook on the street compared to the stick only GT500.We all know the GT500 will hand the ZL1 it's ass on the track(prepped surface) but I feel on the street it's going to be a pain trying to put that much power down with no prep and skinny tires.

If you want to lose in comfort get a ZL1

that is sig material.

Since most of you say that the majority of the runs between these two will be stop light to stop light lets take a look at this part of story....

(When you're putting that much torque to just two tires, these things happen. The Mustang and its extra 75 lb-ft of torque suffer more here, with more wheel spin and more sliding around. As a result, the race is actually very close through the first two gears until the Mustang finally hooks up and walks away in third.

Read more: http://m.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1206_2012_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_vs_2013_shelby_gt50 0/index.html#ixzz1zGESTGSR)

Seems to me like it's going to come down to a drivers race since most stop light to stop light don't see 100mph+ speeds. Now just think about how much easier it will be for a auto ZL1 to hook on the street compared to the stick only GT500.We all know the GT500 will hand the ZL1 it's ass on the track(prepped surface) but I feel on the street it's going to be a pain trying to put that much power down with no prep and skinny tires.

it suffers more, yet still gets to 60 a half second faster. be glad it doesn't suffer. annihilation would happen at that point. :engarde:

Since most of you say that the majority of the runs between these two will be stop light to stop light lets take a look at this part of story....

(When you're putting that much torque to just two tires, these things happen. The Mustang and its extra 75 lb-ft of torque suffer more here, with more wheel spin and more sliding around. As a result, the race is actually very close through the first two gears until the Mustang finally hooks up and walks away in third.

Read more: http://m.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1206_2012_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_vs_2013_shelby_gt50 0/index.html#ixzz1zGESTGSR)

Seems to me like it's going to come down to a drivers race since most stop light to stop light don't see 100mph+ speeds. Now just think about how much easier it will be for a auto ZL1 to hook on the street compared to the stick only GT500.We all know the GT500 will hand the ZL1 it's ass on the track(prepped surface) but I feel on the street it's going to be a pain trying to put that much power down with no prep and skinny tires.


It is going to be bad for the ZL1 on the street.

It is going to be bad for the ZL1 on the street.

Just like it was for the SS when the 5.0 came out? Cause that isnt really happening yet either.

Just like it was for the SS when the 5.0 came out? Cause that isnt really happening yet either.

The GT500 traps 7-10mph faster in the tests.

On the streets the GT500 is going to run away and hide from the ZL1 in a race.

Did you forget that without the extra performance packs it wouldn't even be close on the track? If all you want is to run it at the strip then yeah I guess the base model would be the way to go especially for the dollar.

What does the extra performance pack include, and how do you know it wouldn't be close?

I think we should have a few more of these threads.

It's not getting old yet.

So Fresh. So Clean.

Just like it was for the SS when the 5.0 came out? Cause that isnt really happening yet either.

Were talking 114-116 avg traps vs 125+ avg traps. The car will literally make the Z look like it went to reverse at the hit.

The GT500 traps 7-10mph faster in the tests.

On the streets the GT500 is going to run away and hide from the ZL1 in a race.

You guys seems to think that a car that's has a hard time putting the power down on a sticky track is going to be easy on the street.You can't honestly say you've never seen a slower car win because the car with more power can't hook. Auto cars are known for there ability to out launch a standard especially on the street.

You guys seems to think that a car that's has a hard time putting the power down on a sticky track is going to be easy on the street.You can't honestly say you've never seen a slower car win because the car with more power can't hook. Auto cars are known for there ability to out launch a standard especially on the street.

not to be argumentitive......who the hell am i fooling? :devil:

you know there's people out there that can and do launch very easily on the street. if you know your car, you can launch it well enough to beat on the street the same cars it can beat on the track. :engarde:

You guys seems to think that a car that's has a hard time putting the power down on a sticky track is going to be easy on the street.You can't honestly say you've never seen a slower car win because the car with more power can't hook. Auto cars are known for there ability to out launch a standard especially on the street.

I see what youre saying, the 500 does need tires for the street. The thing is, and we ALL know this: anything can happen on the street!

Hmmmmm, real world results tell a different story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJlsUL55ht0&feature=plcp



http://www.jdmtube.com/video/306/2013-GT500-vs-ZL1-Camaro-14-Mile-PBIR-Moroso

Well hey, at least the ZL1 rides good!

Hmmmmm, real world results tell a different story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJlsUL55ht0&feature=plcp



http://www.jdmtube.com/video/306/2013-GT500-vs-ZL1-Camaro-14-Mile-PBIR-Moroso

Well hey, at least the ZL1 rides good!

I think the real enthusiast knows that a SC car isnt the best choice for a track. I have pondered why GM did this instead of skipping the MR in the Z and putting it in the 1LE and putting an LS9 in the Z and keeping the muscle car thing going. I posted this in another thread too ;)

What does the extra performance pack include, and how do you know it wouldn't be close?

Wheels and tires,springs,adjustable dampers,Torsen limited slip,diff cooler,tranny cooler and oil cooler.

As far as it being slower on the road course I guess nobody could officially say it would be without the track/performance packs but it already can't beat the zl1 (handling/ride quality) with both packs so I would only assume it would be worse without them. If you never intend on running it on any type of track day they are both not needed for regular street driving or quarter mile blast.

Before any of you point out the fact that the gt500 is either right on the bumper or even beat the zl1 on a road course yes I know but it's not because it handled better it's because it could accelerate faster from turn to turn.:chug:

I think the real enthusiast knows that a SC car isnt the best choice for a track. I have pondered why GM did this instead of skipping the MR in the Z and putting it in the 1LE and putting an LS9 in the Z and keeping the muscle car thing going. I posted this in another thread too ;)

Ls7 in the 1le and Ls9 in the Z :bang::bang:

Hmmmmm, real world results tell a different story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJlsUL55ht0&feature=plcp



http://www.jdmtube.com/video/306/2013-GT500-vs-ZL1-Camaro-14-Mile-PBIR-Moroso

Well hey, at least the ZL1 rides good!

not to stick up for the zl or anything, but it really didnt look like its driver was pushing.

Wheels and tires,springs,adjustable dampers,Torsen limited slip,diff cooler,tranny cooler and oil cooler.

As far as it being slower on the road course I guess nobody could officially say it would be without the track/performance packs but it already can't beat the zl1 (handling/ride quality) with both packs so I would only assume it would be worse without them. If you never intend on running it on any type of track day they are both not needed for regular street driving or quarter mile blast.

Before any of you point out the fact that the gt500 is either right on the bumper or even beat the zl1 on a road course yes I know but it's not because it handled better it's because it could accelerate faster from turn to turn.:chug:

it doesn't matter how. it did it. and it did it just as i said it would.

not to stick up for the zl or anything, but it really didnt look like its driver was pushing.

Owner is known for his track skills, but the car was reportedly having heatsoak issues despite an aftermarket H/E

GT500 owner said he was really testing the brakes just to see if they faded like MTs test car did, then he cancelled his subscription lol

You got to figure a 10+mph pull is HUGE, video below is the same car getting drug down the 1/4....

But yo. ZL1-4 Gt500-0 in magazine land

Wheels and tires,springs,adjustable dampers,Torsen limited slip,diff cooler,tranny cooler and oil cooler.

As far as it being slower on the road course I guess nobody could officially say it would be without the track/performance packs but it already can't beat the zl1 (handling/ride quality) with both packs so I would only assume it would be worse without them. If you never intend on running it on any type of track day they are both not needed for regular street driving or quarter mile blast.

Before any of you point out the fact that the gt500 is either right on the bumper or even beat the zl1 on a road course yes I know but it's not because it handled better it's because it could accelerate faster from turn to turn.:chug:
SVT performance package=equipment group 812A $3495.00
torsen differential,
19" frontwheels
20" rear wheels
bilstien adjustable dampers
unique rear springs
unique instrument cluster
unique shift knob

SVT Track Package $2995.00
external engine oil cooler
differential cooler with pump
transmission cooler with pump

Thats quite a price bump over the zl1 though isnt it? Considering the ZL1 come in at $55,320 with the optional $600 carbon hood insert and the GT500 comes in at $61,485. Both of those prices include the destination charge. Thats a difference of almost $6,200 dollars. So for $6,165 dollars less you get a car that handles better, stops better, behaves better and IMO looks better. For $6,165 dollars more you can get the car that has a better 0-60 and 1/4 mile. Both cars are great, but the zl1 on the track and paper is a better deal. Not to mention that GM gives you an extra 40,000 miles on the powertrain warranty.

The thing is, and we ALL know this: anything can happen on the street! Thank you that's exactly my point because every dog has there day even the underdog and unfortunately the ZL1 is....:bang:

Ls7 in the 1le and Ls9 in the Z :bang::bang:
Stop talking dirty to me.....:D
SVT performance package=equipment group 812A $3495.00
torsen differential,
19" frontwheels
20" rear wheels
bilstien adjustable dampers
unique rear springs
unique instrument cluster
unique shift knob

SVT Track Package $2995.00
external engine oil cooler
differential cooler with pump
transmission cooler with pump

Thanks for some reason I couldnt access the options on the ford website with my iPhone.

not to stick up for the zl or anything, but it really didnt look like its driver was pushing.

Yeah you can tell he wasn't giving it its all but from that little bit of tape you could tell that track would favor the gt500 HP vs. zl1 handling....IMO

Thats quite a price bump over the zl1 though isnt it? Considering the ZL1 come in at $55,320 with the optional $600 carbon hood insert and the GT500 comes in at $61,485. Both of those prices include the destination charge. Thats a difference of almost $6,200 dollars. So for $6,165 dollars less you get a car that handles better, stops better, behaves better and IMO looks better. For $6,165 dollars more you can get the car that has a better 0-60 and 1/4 mile. Both cars are great, but the zl1 on the track and paper is a better deal. Not to mention that GM gives you an extra 40,000 miles on the powertrain warranty.

did you forget this?
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7273/7475987870_33e3c5bd3b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/70148615@N03/7475987870/)
summary (http://www.flickr.com/photos/70148615@N03/7475987870/) by 1LtCap (http://www.flickr.com/people/70148615@N03/), on Flickr

you don't need ANY of the extra stuff to beat the zl in anything, unless you're doing multiple laps. in fact, considering that those packs add weight, i would suspect that without them, the 0-60, 0-100, 0-150, 1/4 mile losses would be even more humiliating for the zl driver.

did you forget this?
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7273/7475987870_33e3c5bd3b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/70148615@N03/7475987870/)
summary (http://www.flickr.com/photos/70148615@N03/7475987870/) by 1LtCap (http://www.flickr.com/people/70148615@N03/), on Flickr

you don't need ANY of the extra stuff to beat the zl in anything, unless you're doing multiple laps. in fact, considering that those packs add weight, i would suspect that without them, the 0-60, 0-100, 0-150, 1/4 mile losses would be even more humiliating for the zl driver.

Good point.

Thats quite a price bump over the zl1 though isnt it? Considering the ZL1 come in at $55,320 with the optional $600 carbon hood insert and the GT500 comes in at $61,485. Both of those prices include the destination charge. Thats a difference of almost $6,200 dollars. So for $6,165 dollars less you get a car that handles better, stops better, behaves better and IMO looks better. For $6,165 dollars more you can get the car that has a better 0-60 and 1/4 mile. Both cars are great, but the zl1 on the track and paper is a better deal. Not to mention that GM gives you an extra 40,000 miles on the powertrain warranty.

Dont forget the government needed gas guzzler tax... lol

Good point.

bear in mind that chart isn't mine. i wouldn't know how to make one, even if i'd had the time. i "appropriated" it from whomever made it in another of these threads.

i'm wondering if someone should link your "at the track" thread in here.

also....i know you're a long way away....but how does one go about getting track time with their street car? i'm less than an hour from new jersey motorsports park, which has two very nice tracks. would be fun to run the gt out there.

Hmmmmm, which car is the "one trick pony"??


Looks like a no trick pony


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hc1U-FgNik&feature=youtu.be

Owner is known for his track skills, but the car was reportedly having heatsoak issues despite an aftermarket H/E

GT500 owner said he was really testing the brakes just to see if they faded like MTs test car did, then he cancelled his subscription lol

You got to figure a 10+mph pull is HUGE, video below is the same car getting drug down the 1/4....

But yo. ZL1-4 Gt500-0 in magazine land

so the zl driver knew what he was doing then...it was mechanical failure?

Ford Mustang Unleashed
Mustang Makes Zero Compromises. Test Drive Legendary Ford Mustang.
www. ford. com/ Mustang

that's the ad at the bottom of this page on my puter........kind of appropriate, lolololol

I don't get why the magazines are making their personal opinion such a staple in their supposed testing... These two cars have been tested several times now and the magzines keep begging us all to believe the ZL1 is better, all the while showing us better overall results from the GT500.

To me it's very simple: Which one is faster? The fact of the matter is, these cars were built for performance, not making us feel comfortable. While the ZL1 is(as expected by the entire industrialized world) more comfortable, the GT500 is the better performer; end of story.... Well, we know it isn't, but for now, the Mustang retains its title.

I don't get why the magazines are making their personal opinion such a staple in their supposed testing... These two cars have been tested several times now and the magzines keep begging us all to believe the ZL1 is better, all the while showing us better overall results from the GT500.

To me it's very simple: Which one is faster? The fact of the matter is, these cars were built for performance, not making us feel comfortable. While the ZL1 is(as expected by the entire industrialized world) more comfortable, the GT500 is the better performer; end of story.... Well, we know it isn't, but for now, the Mustang retains its title.

Yes and no....Like I said before I think Chevy knew they were better off building a car that did everything including great street manners because they know they can't compete with the Shelby (power,1/4,) as long as the vette is around do yeah it was built for speed and comfort. If they were built for just performance they wouldn't have half the stuff they do.So in the end there both made to do EVERYTHING!!!!!!!

Yes and no....Like I said before I think Chevy knew they were better off building a car that did everything including great street manners because they know they can't compete with the Shelby (power,1/4,) as long as the vette is around do yeah it was built for speed and comfort. If they were built for just performance they wouldn't have half the stuff they do.So in the end there both made to do EVERYTHING!!!!!!!

WELL apparently, the zl doesn't do anything better than the shelby once you get out of the magazine world......not judging by the videos posted in the other thread. i noticed that the shelby was even able to close up the distance in the turns, which the magazines said it couldn't do.

Yes and no....Like I said before I think Chevy knew they were better off building a car that did everything including great street manners because they know they can't compete with the Shelby (power,1/4,) as long as the vette is around do yeah it was built for speed and comfort. If they were built for just performance they wouldn't have half the stuff they do.So in the end there both made to do EVERYTHING!!!!!!!

I think it is more that Chevy aimed for the wrong bench mark (the 2012 GT500), not expecting that Ford would make such a dramatic change in power output in just one model year. Caught with their pants down, they had no choice but to highlight the other, more subjective areas such as ride comfort, etc., and the magazines seem to have picked up on this and ran with it.

maybe people like what they like and arent concerned what others think.

And if they are that way, this magazine article won't really matter now, will it?

And if they are that way, this magazine article won't really matter now, will it?

nope,sure wont. just like your opinion. ;)




fact is i see people driving expensive sports cars all the time and its obvious they have no interest in racing. they just enjoy it because they like it and theres nothing wrong with that.


with cars like these id prefer power over everything but maybe some people that buy these cars want other things too.

nope,sure wont. just like your opinion. ;)




fact is i see people driving expensive sports cars all the time and its obvious they have no interest in racing. they just enjoy it because they like it and theres nothing wrong with that.


with cars like these id prefer power over everything but maybe some people that buy these cars want other things too.Couldn't help but notice you said the articles won't matter, just like his opinion(won't matter)... Then added your own opinion, basically saying his opinion ... is better than the magazines... Like he seemed to imply, you prefer the more powerful vehicle. As do the majority on sites like this. As Meents said, GM apparently aimed for the 2011/2 GT500, not having any clue that Ford would pull the trigger on one HELL OF AN ENGINE!

Most of us are in agreement here that the GT500 is indeed the better performer. Frankly, as close as anyone can make it look, it isn't remotely close where it counts... on the track. Reality proves that most of these cars will spend much more time at a drag strip than a road course. Doesn't even matter though because in all honesty, who wants to go away from the drag strip and then the road track saying, "Yeah, well I got pounded today, but my car looks better to me and rides smoother, so I'm the real winner!" Nobody... EVER. Getting hammered is only cool when you're having a bachelor party or the like; not on a race track.

Bottom line: GT500- 1, ZL1- 0. That's taking nothing away from the ZL1, as it is still truly a pig on wheels with no rear visibility, BUT... A great performer, nonetheless. The GT500 is simply an astounding version of the Mustang, the likes of which none of us saw coming. We even joked that Ford would have to unleash a 600hp version and thought that was wishful thinking... Color us amazed. :nod:

Kudos to Ford for smacking the world upside the head and having the world smile about it. :D

Shame on the magazines for reporting the truth, then telling everyone to overlook that truth because one car is easier for sissies than the other. :bang: For any of those trolls to tell us all that one performed far better really, then turn around and claim the slower, less powerful, less efficient vehicle is actually better... Sacrilege(for ANY performance oriented magazine).

I don't get why the magazines are making their personal opinion such a staple in their supposed testing... These two cars have been tested several times now and the magzines keep begging us all to believe the ZL1 is better, all the while showing us better overall results from the GT500.

To me it's very simple: Which one is faster? The fact of the matter is, these cars were built for performance, not making us feel comfortable. While the ZL1 is(as expected by the entire industrialized world) more comfortable, the GT500 is the better performer; end of story.... Well, we know it isn't, but for now, the Mustang retains its title.

I was also surprised how much personal opinion skewed their results and basically threw them out the window. They may be track guys but your average person doesn't have access to a track never mind the cost of track racing, finding a drag strip these days is hard enough. They want to throw in their personal opinion to outweigh all but they haven't asked the most obvious question, how many here in America actually drive their cars hard in the twisties, or have any interest in doing so (besides dumb kids that just got their license, crash into a tree and raise our insurance rates).

Most people realize with the roads here it's just plain stupid and reckless. To take cars with this much power that are affordable for the average Joe who may not be well off enough to bring it to the track when ever he/she feels like since they still work their ass off until retirement, to then make it seem like it's ok to drive like an idiot on mountain roads and practically disqualify a car that won every test because it can't drive recklessly for a long period of time, this is just stupid. Those magazine drivers are too pampered and need to come back to the real world and realize what average people are looking for in a car. That said, brakes are important, and I'm glad they emphasized the issue.

That said, brakes are important, and I'm glad they emphasized the issue.Did they do enough, correctly though? I didn't read each article and don't know if any, let alone all tests included the GT500 with the upgrades like brake ducting... If these tests were done using the available upgrades and the cars still lost braking as soon as we've read, that's an issue. Of course, the video of the guy driving his GT500 didn't make it look like his brakes were an issue, so who's "most right" on this? The mag tester guys or the real world owner who apparently drives far better than they??? Not my decision to make, but it really didn't look like the brakes were an issue in actual video(as opposed to their statements without video). Besides, what was so bad about the GT500's brakes? Why haven't we heard these horror stories about the 2011/12 model, which supposedly got less braking power? Idonno, but I smell more than brake dust in these stories... :nod:

For me, the proof is in the truth... I think the ZL1 is the best Camaro ever, but it simply doesn't have what the GT500 has, overall. It has several "better" things, but lacks where it counts most... winning.

Most of us are in agreement here that the GT500 is indeed the better performer. Frankly, as close as anyone can make it look, it isn't remotely close where it counts... on the track. Reality proves that most of these cars will spend much more time at a drag strip than a road course. Doesn't even matter though because in all honesty, who wants to go away from the drag strip and then the road track saying, "Yeah, well I got pounded today, but my car looks better to me and rides smoother, so I'm the real winner!" Nobody... EVER. Getting hammered is only cool when you're having a bachelor party or the like; not on a race track.
Funny you say that, yet people still buy pre-SN197 5.0 Mustangs/'13 GT500s when other cars for the same price/cheaper kill them on the track.
A 4th gen will wipe the floor against a pre-5.0 muffstain, and a similarly priced base C6 Corvette (or the even cheaper C5 Z06) will embarrass a pre '13 GT500 on a track. And when I say "track" I mean a real track, one with turns.
Seriously why are you mustang guys on a GM forum trying to argue with people who clearly will not change with opinion?
Who cares who a magazine picks, and who cares if someone likes the ZL1 better? If you dont like people praising GM cars then get off a GM forum.

WELL apparently, the zl doesn't do anything better than the shelby once you get out of the magazine world......not judging by the videos posted in the other thread. i noticed that the shelby was even able to close up the distance in the turns, which the magazines said it couldn't do.
We already established that that video wasn't 100% to 100% and the Chevy had problems that were never established in any comparison but on the flip side ford didn't have the brake issue that was brought up in one of the comparisons.

I think it is more that Chevy aimed for the wrong bench mark (the 2012 GT500), not expecting that Ford would make such a dramatic change in power output in just one model year. Caught with their pants down, they had no choice but to highlight the other, more subjective areas such as ride comfort, etc., and the magazines seem to have picked up on this and ran with it.
Not really caught with there pants down since the they got what they went after but ford had the upper hand by waiting for Chevy to drop there's first and we could really split hairs and compare my to my.
But like I said it will never be faster because of the vette do they HAVE to beat it in other ways that the public will appreciate not just the hard core enthusiast.

Couldn't help but notice you said the articles won't matter, just like his opinion(won't matter)... Then added your own opinion, basically saying his opinion ... is better than the magazines... Like he seemed to imply, you prefer the more powerful vehicle. As do the majority on sites like this. As Meents said, GM apparently aimed for the 2011/2 GT500, not having any clue that Ford would pull the trigger on one HELL OF AN ENGINE!

Most of us are in agreement here that the GT500 is indeed the better performer. Frankly, as close as anyone can make it look, it isn't remotely close where it counts... on the track. Reality proves that most of these cars will spend much more time at a drag strip than a road course. Doesn't even matter though because in all honesty, who wants to go away from the drag strip and then the road track saying, "Yeah, well I got pounded today, but my car looks better to me and rides smoother, so I'm the real winner!" Nobody... EVER. Getting hammered is only cool when you're having a bachelor party or the like; not on a race track.

Bottom line: GT500- 1, ZL1- 0. That's taking nothing away from the ZL1, as it is still truly a pig on wheels with no rear visibility, BUT... A great performer, nonetheless. The GT500 is simply an astounding version of the Mustang, the likes of which none of us saw coming. We even joked that Ford would have to unleash a 600hp version and thought that was wishful thinking... Color us amazed. :nod:

Kudos to Ford for smacking the world upside the head and having the world smile about it. :D

Shame on the magazines for reporting the truth, then telling everyone to overlook that truth because one car is easier for sissies than the other. :bang: For any of those trolls to tell us all that one performed far better really, then turn around and claim the slower, less powerful, less efficient vehicle is actually better... Sacrilege(for ANY performance oriented magazine).


yup, people will buy whatever car they like regardless of what anyone thinks.


thats why calling someone whipped or a sissy isnt going to sway someones preference either.

JD AMG-
Yet no one started arguing or writing articles that pre-sn197s were not really muscle cars, but instead track cars. Throughout that era the Camaro and Firebirds were hands down the fastest cars of the big three (in that price range), no one (sanely) argued they weren't. And for most enthusiasts up until now, that's all they cared about.

Firebird99-
GM has broken that corvette barrier. Remember the ls1? Last I checked the Corvettes and 98-02 Camaro/Firebird's engines were eerily similar, they just underrated the latter. So who says they couldn't or wouldn't do that again?

The funniest thing to me in all of this is that the proof of what GM enthusiasts really care about is on this website! It's called the Street Racing & Kill Stories subsection. Go through that and tell me how many times you see someone posting about how they got onto a set of twisties and narrowly beat about the opposing driver because of his car's superior handling......As compared to side by side drag racing kills.

The ZL1 isn't the fastest car and while it may handle better, the GT500s numbers aren't far off from the ZL1s. With all that said, I'm not a brand loyalist. When I close my eyes, I don't have Ford, GM, or Chrysler tattooed on the inside of my eyelids. In this case, Ford did the better job, just like in prior years, GM did.

There are entirely WAY too many ford guys on a GM forum. Are you guys just SVTperformance rejects?

And how can you "car enthusiasts"(both gm and ford guys) say the feel of the car is not important? Oh yea that's b/c you've only been to a strip and never taken your cars into a corner or a track, which is a shame cause it's 100x more rewarding, it's what the Corvette guys have been enjoying for many years now.

The ZL1 wins the magazine's opinions because there is more to a car than straighline performance, and that's why the track is so important, because the Z will get ahead in the corners and the 500 will catch up in the straights, and it'll be a close match. They are both fantastic cars and anybody that buys either one isn't losing anything.

I freakin HATE my fbody b/c when I'm not living life 1/4 at a time I'm driving 1st, 3rd and 5th gear to save gas. The ride comfort is shit and the interior makes me throw up. I'm buying a 2005+ mustang gt or a gto next purely b/c of their comfort. They might not be as fast as the fbody but you've gotta live with these cars daily and i'd rather not have a shattered spine. My point is I'm not a brand fan, I'm a car fan, so respect and appreciate everyone's offerings :usa:

thanks for a few of you that made my point clearer.



despite all of us here that street race and go to a 1/4 track every weekend its possible some buyers of these cars might not.


they might prefer something a little more refined and comfortable and that doesnt mean their wife owns them or theyre sissies. a few buyers might even be female. what would they be considered? :D


i bought a GTO because i wanted a nice DD. i couldve bought a used c5 or 03 cobra that would be faster and handle better but i wanted something more comfortable.

I think the funny part is after the first comparasion by inside line people said they wanted a pro driver with actual data to back it up and once they got it they still weren't happy that the PRO picked the camaro over the mustang. Guess no matter what some people just can't accept facts or understand the perimeters of there test. There testing wasn't JUST track numbers that's why it turned bad for the GT500 and maybe if some of you guys would stop and realize that these cars do not live on the track because they are STREET CARS!!!!

There is NO STREET CAR that is built solely for any one thing they are built to do everything. No matter what any of us think the percentage of people that will actually track these cars on any track/strip is very low when compared to how many are actually sold. Neither of these cars are aimed at a younger buyer since most (not all ) can't afford them but more towards an older more established customer and they will not settle for a one trick pony which is what makes both of these cars so awesome neither of them are but they both have there pros and cons (price,power,style,comfort,mpg,warranty,durability ) so at the end of the day pick which one you like and stop nit picking the other.

There is NO STREET CAR that is built solely for any one thing they are built to do everything. No matter what any of us think the percentage of people that will actually track these cars on any track/strip is very low when compared to how many are actually sold. Neither of these cars are aimed at a younger buyer since most (not all ) can't afford them but more towards an older more established customer and they will not settle for a one trick pony which is what makes both of these cars so awesome neither of them are but they both have there pros and cons (price,power,style,comfort,mpg,warranty,durability ) so at the end of the day pick which one you like and stop nit picking the other.

In the end, the "Chevy Guys" are going to buy the ZL1 and the "Ford Guys" are going to buy the GT500. The "enthusiast" (like myself) would have to make an actual decision. What am I buying this car for? I wouldn't be daily driving either, so "smoother ride" goes out the window. Most of my spirited driving occurs on a dragstrip, a city street, or highway.


For me, it all comes down to a few things:
Looks - I'd call it a tie even though I like the GT500's looks more...looks are subjective
Warrantied Performance - GT500 clearly wins this (for what I'd use it for).
Ease/Cost of basic updrades and their resulting performance - GT500

I really like the GT500's ability to go VERY fast without having to tear into the motor.

For me, it all comes down to a few things:
Looks - I'd call it a tie even though I like the GT500's looks more...looks are subjective.

See that's another big thing for a customer that could careless what badge is on the car and I dare say even which one is faster since there both fast but one a little quicker is "looks". A person won't buy a car no matter how fast or how well it handles if they don't like the way it looks especially for that kind of money.I hope they both sell like crazy so we all have something to look forward to other then which one has more volts then the other......

In the end, the "Chevy Guys" are going to buy the ZL1 and the "Ford Guys" are going to buy the GT500. The "enthusiast" (like myself) would have to make an actual decision. What am I buying this car for? I wouldn't be daily driving either, so "smoother ride" goes out the window. Most of my spirited driving occurs on a dragstrip, a city street, or highway.


For me, it all comes down to a few things:
Looks - I'd call it a tie even though I like the GT500's looks more...looks are subjective
Warrantied Performance - GT500 clearly wins this (for what I'd use it for).
Ease/Cost of basic updrades and their resulting performance - GT500

I really like the GT500's ability to go VERY fast without having to tear into the motor.

I agree with this post on everything except the bold. I love the backroads and turns (hence why my Chevelle leaves the line flat as a board at the track...it's set up to turn). If I were intending to purchase I would drive both, but honestly I can't see preferring either one to a Grand Sport Corvette.

I agree with this post on everything except the bold. I love the backroads and turns (hence why my Chevelle leaves the line flat as a board at the track...it's set up to turn). If I were intending to purchase I would drive both, but honestly I can't see preferring either one to a Grand Sport Corvette.

I live south of Houston, Texas. There are no winding roads around here. None.

The ZL1 and the GT500 would both run away from a GS at the dragstrip and on a road course.

The ZL1 and the GT500 would both run away from a GS at the dragstrip and on a road course.

I haven't looked at enough of the numbers to know for sure, but my comment was directed more at the driving experience as a whole.

My car would rape a z51 C5 by around a second and a half at the strip and holds its own quite well in the turns, but driving the C5 is something completely different.

I haven't got to drive a C6, much less a higher model C6


EDIT:

You made me curious so I looked. Found a decent list of "showroom stock" ls3 Corvettes running 11s and low 12s@116-120mph. Pretty well in line with the ZL1 stock for stock. Tune and tire they go mid 11s it seems. I can tune it for free since I have EFI live and credits...

Not sure the best way to compare course times but the Nurburing times listed for a ZL1 and a base C6 hint you might be correct on that front, hard to say without knowing the tires used and specifics.


Like I said I would like to drive the cars if I were shopping for something. But honestly would never buy new and with used z06 prices in the low-mid $40s last I looked, I would be swayed that direction I'm sure. Another big factor being the looks. I think a GS or Z06 body C6 looks much more aggressive and sleek than the ZL1 or GT500.

I live south of Houston, Texas. There are no winding roads around here. None.
Yet there are available 16 road courses...
Road race, or even autox once, you won't go back to drag racing.

The ZL1 and the GT500 would both run away from a GS at the dragstrip and on a road course.[/QUOTE]
Depends on the track. Even so, the Corvette is a FAR better platform to start with for road racing.

The ZL1 and the GT500 would both run away from a GS at the dragstripThe (2013) GT500 definitely...the ZL1, probably.


The ZL1 and the GT500 would both run away from a GS on a road course.Possibly, but certainly not on every single type of road course.





I haven't looked at enough of the numbers to know for sure, but my comment was directed more at the driving experience as a whole.

My car would rape a z51 C5 by around a second and a half at the strip and holds its own quite well in the turns, but driving the C5 is something completely different.

I haven't got to drive a C6, much less a higher model C6


EDIT:

You made me curious so I looked. Found a decent list of "showroom stock" ls3 Corvettes running 11s and low 12s@116-120mph. Pretty well in line with the ZL1 stock for stock. Tune and tire they go mid 11s it seems.True. Bone stock base LS3s have run 11.8s and even an 11.7 in excellent air/track conditions, and the Grand Sport models might actually be ever so slightly slower than the base cars (extra weight from the wheels/tires/brakes) too.
I do believe that the quickest bone stock ZL1 (we haven't seen it's best yet) will end up being quicker than that. And the 2013 GT500 has already 'bested' those numbers and will put up even quicker ETs before the end of the year as well of course.

I haven't looked at enough of the numbers to know for sure, but my comment was directed more at the driving experience as a whole.

My car would rape a z51 C5 by around a second and a half at the strip and holds its own quite well in the turns, but driving the C5 is something completely different.

I haven't got to drive a C6, much less a higher model C6


EDIT:

You made me curious so I looked. Found a decent list of "showroom stock" ls3 Corvettes running 11s and low 12s@116-120mph. Pretty well in line with the ZL1 stock for stock. Tune and tire they go mid 11s it seems. I can tune it for free since I have EFI live and credits...

Not sure the best way to compare course times but the Nurburing times listed for a ZL1 and a base C6 hint you might be correct on that front, hard to say without knowing the tires used and specifics.


Like I said I would like to drive the cars if I were shopping for something. But honestly would never buy new and with used z06 prices in the low-mid $40s last I looked, I would be swayed that direction I'm sure. Another big factor being the looks. I think a GS or Z06 body C6 looks much more aggressive and sleek than the ZL1 or GT500.
but you're pulling the corvette comparison out again.

For the Ford guys here that think the GT500 is such a better car, they sure do spend a lot of time here and on other GM sites trying to convince everyone else that the zl1 isnt the better car. Its funny to goole user names. lol


Somebody wants attention.....hmm hemmmm....1ltcap...hemmmm hem.

but you're pulling the corvette comparison out again.

That's because as I stated, I would be cross shopping them whether they are intended competition or not. And honestly I believe a lot of other buyers would be doing the same...you're talking about $55-65k Camaros and Mustangs (performance cars)...that price brings the Corvette (performance car) into the market.

Just making conversation, didn't mean to interrupt the Camaro vs Mustang butt hurt from people who will never even sit in either car.

That's because as I stated, I would be cross shopping them whether they are intended competition or not. And honestly I believe a lot of other buyers would be doing the same...you're talking about $55-65k Camaros and Mustangs (performance cars)...that price brings the Corvette (performance car) into the market.

Just making conversation, didn't mean to interrupt the Camaro vs Mustang butt hurt from people who will never even sit in either car.

How dare you!

sound like a bunch of rice grinders in here its a good thing that I dont run my cart in the twisties other wise one of you guys might pass me and make me feal bad , of course if I were to race in the twisties and had brake problems i would imagine a good set of behr brakes would be in order that would pretty much end that discussion , the camero is a good grocery getter and kid hauler by the sounds of it , if you want chevey performance go by a Corvette there is where its at , unfortunantly for some of you the ride is to stiff and you feal every bump in the raod and that is a bad thing , FOR SOME NOT ALL. Buy a Vette if you want to rung with the big dogs , quit whineinign and trying to make it more than it is a Camero Glorified station wagon with a big engine in it 4000 lbs of rolling well lets leave that for another time , and yes I own a Shelb y and a Mustang 2 corvettes and a 69 camero and a 70 road runner so before you go off the deep end and ranting about a ford guy understand I like all cars , and own alot of them i am also in the process of retro modding my 1979 Corvette i bought a month ago with an LS engine

sound like a bunch of rice grinders in here its a good thing that I dont run my cart in the twisties other wise one of you guys might pass me and make me feal bad , of course if I were to race in the twisties and had brake problems i would imagine a good set of behr brakes would be in order that would pretty much end that discussion , the camero is a good grocery getter and kid hauler by the sounds of it , if you want chevey performance go by a Corvette there is where its at , unfortunantly for some of you the ride is to stiff and you feal every bump in the raod and that is a bad thing , FOR SOME NOT ALL. Buy a Vette if you want to rung with the big dogs , quit whineinign and trying to make it more than it is a Camero Glorified station wagon with a big engine in it 4000 lbs of rolling well lets leave that for another time , and yes I own a Shelb y and a Mustang 2 corvettes and a 69 camero and a 70 road runner so before you go off the deep end and ranting about a ford guy understand I like all cars , and own alot of them i am also in the process of retro modding my 1979 Corvette i bought a month ago with an LS engine

That 69 Camero must be rare as fuck. All the ones I see have misspelled Camaro badging. :D


Your post has shown me the light. I should sell my 3800 lb boat of a Chevelle and buy a Corvette. I'll have to live in it and give blowjobs every 6 months to pay insurance...but by damn I can run with the big dogs. :ripped:

That's because as I stated, I would be cross shopping them whether they are intended competition or not. And honestly I believe a lot of other buyers would be doing the same...you're talking about $55-65k Camaros and Mustangs (performance cars)...that price brings the Corvette (performance car) into the market.

Just making conversation, didn't mean to interrupt the Camaro vs Mustang butt hurt from people who will never even sit in either car.

i can understand that.

sometimes i judge things too closed mindedly. me personally, if i wanted a corvette, there's nothing to shop against it, unless ford brought the gt40 back. i wouldn't cross-shop the camaro/mustang with a vette, as to me, although performance may be similar, i still view them as two totally different cars.

sound like a bunch of rice grinders in here its a good thing that I dont run my cart in the twisties other wise one of you guys might pass me and make me feal bad , of course if I were to race in the twisties and had brake problems i would imagine a good set of behr brakes would be in order that would pretty much end that discussion , the camero is a good grocery getter and kid hauler by the sounds of it , if you want chevey performance go by a Corvette there is where its at , unfortunantly for some of you the ride is to stiff and you feal every bump in the raod and that is a bad thing , FOR SOME NOT ALL. Buy a Vette if you want to rung with the big dogs , quit whineinign and trying to make it more than it is a Camero Glorified station wagon with a big engine in it 4000 lbs of rolling well lets leave that for another time , and yes I own a Shelb y and a Mustang 2 corvettes and a 69 camero and a 70 road runner so before you go off the deep end and ranting about a ford guy understand I like all cars , and own alot of them i am also in the process of retro modding my 1979 Corvette i bought a month ago with an LS engine


is it me, or does this guy sound like that 5.0tech guy that just got a vacation?

if i wanted a corvette, there's nothing to shop against it

I mostly agree, but if I was getting ready to drop that kind of coin on a car like that, it wouldn't hurt to at least give the ZL1 and GT500 a chance.

I've never even driven a 5th gen, but I have driven an 11 GT and it was really nice to drive. But like my original statement to Ross, the ZL1 or GT500 would have to offer one hell of a driving experience to sway my bias to wanting a Corvette. Which one goes faster in a straight line stock isn't a huge deal compared to how the car drives, how fun it is, how comfortable I am sitting and seeing out of it, and all the other little things.

Hence why I have a ls1 swapped Chevelle with some suspension work instead of a lighter/faster fbody. I can see out of my car, I can see over the hood/front bumper without straining my neck, I can work under the hood without scarring my forearms, and the vibe from an old muscle car is more enjoyable to me.

are you drag raceing or running on the track A chevell is an awsome straight line car one of the best you could get in its day one i would love to have But if I am going road raceing it sure would not be my first choice , and i dont own a 5.0 the new 5.0s are great but the old ones were not much to talk about , I do own a 5.4 in My shelby and 4.6 in the other GT , the Camero has a 327 the Vett has an LS1 My chevy truck has a 5.3 Road runner is a 440 six pack the only 2, I would run an a track is the vette and the shelby my 79 Vette has a 350 soon to be a modified 5,3 fuel injected motor and that car will be just a driver . so if that offends you sorry the Camero is not all its cracked up to be , If i buy something new for performance it will be a Vette or a Shelby

The Chevelle sees drag strips, back roads, road course, cruise nights, 300+ mile road trips, and is fully capable of being daily driven.

I can't afford to have a different car for everything, so I built a car that can do everything.



It runs 11s, starts every time, gets 20mpg+ highway, stops, turns, has a stereo with sub, and the only thing I wish it had was better paint, better wheels/tires, and A/C. Just making do with what I have and what I can currently afford to blow money on. One day I will have a Corvette, but the Chevelle does well at making do until then.

I can work under the hood without scarring my forearms

There is so much truth to this! My Corvette is WAY easier to get at anything under the hood than my Formula was. I don't know what the fuck GM was thinking when the put the engine of those cars under the windshield!!

The Chevelle sees drag strips, back roads, road course, cruise nights, 300+ mile road trips, and is fully capable of being daily driven.

I can't afford to have a different car for everything, so I built a car that can do everything.



It runs 11s, starts every time, gets 20mpg+ highway, stops, turns, has a stereo with sub, and the only thing I wish it had was better paint, better wheels/tires, and A/C. Just making do with what I have and what I can currently afford to blow money on. One day I will have a Corvette, but the Chevelle does well at making do until then.


the only bad thing abuot those old chevelles, is that you don't see enough nice ones on the street anymore. it almost seems like too many people forgot that chevy built other cool cars besides the camaro.

that said, there's a guy right up the street from my shop, has 3 gorgeous chevelles. all big blocks.

[QUOTE=1ltcap;16486636]is it me, or does this guy sound like that 5.0tech guy that just got a vacation?[/]

I wouldn't be surprised if its the same guy, must be his "other" brother....lol

[QUOTE=1ltcap;16486636]is it me, or does this guy sound like that 5.0tech guy that just got a vacation?[/]

I wouldn't be surprised if its the same guy, must be his "other" brother....lol

[QUOTE=1ltcap;16486636]is it me, or does this guy sound like that 5.0tech guy that just got a vacation?[/]

I wouldn't be surprised if its the same guy, must be his "other" brother....lol

you mean his brother darrel, or his other brother darrel?

^^^curious to know if it's the same ip address again:devil:

^^^curious to know if it's the same ip address again:devil:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN6UAzYY8qg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF-db7bX9LI

Wow they really don't like the Ford's breaks do they?

And isn't the Ford's break bigger? And the car also weighs less...

And the Camaro's breaks are smaller and it's stopping an additional 300lbs...

So I doubt it's the Brembo's at fault as much as are the engineers :mad:

Wow they really don't like the Ford's breaks do they?

And isn't the Ford's break bigger? And the car also weighs less...

And the Camaro's breaks are smaller and it's stopping an additional 300lbs...

So I doubt it's the Brembo's at fault as much as are the engineers :mad:

I think it has bigger front brakes but smaller rear so maybe it's stressing the fronts out to much since the car does carry some nasty speed into turn compared to the camaro but your right it does weigh a few hundred pounds less.

I can't believe they actually called the GT500 a "One Trick Pony"!!!!!

Wow they really don't like the Ford's breaks do they?

And isn't the Ford's break bigger? And the car also weighs less...

And the Camaro's breaks are smaller and it's stopping an additional 300lbs...

So I doubt it's the Brembo's at fault as much as are the engineers :mad:

I dont feel like searching for it (im sure someone will correct me if im wrong), but I believe the ZL1 has brake cooling ducts where the GT500 doesnt.

Wow they really don't like the Ford's breaks do they?

And isn't the Ford's break bigger? And the car also weighs less...

And the Camaro's breaks are smaller and it's stopping an additional 300lbs...

So I doubt it's the Brembo's at fault as much as are the engineers :mad:

i'm not sure what rears they have. the fronts are six piston brembos. they're not bigger than the zl.

what i found very amusing, is that once again, the shelby was better in virtually every test they gave it, yet they go and say the zl is the winner. i guess losing is the new winning

evolve.......could you check with your friend over at revan racing? what brakes does his shelby have, front and rear? and cooling ducts?

what i found very amusing, is that once again, the shelby was better in virtually every test they gave it, yet they go and say the zl is the winner. i guess losing is the new winning

Devil's advocate post:

It's sounding very similar to the pitching a bitch people on this site did about the BRZ/FT86 Toyota/Subaru/Scion thing versus the Mustang v6...the v6 was quicker around the track but from the drivers seat feels like shit in comparison. They are also selling as quick as dealerships can get them.

A lot of people keep saying "how often will these cars see a course?". On that same token how much will they see a drag strip, a slalom, a 0-60-0 test, etc versus the time they will spend on the street doing what normal people do with cars. Not necessarily talking about "comfort" or "sissy factor" as much as just enjoying driving the car.

Throw a race prepped car and a street prepped car at the average person and ask them which one they want to drive every day (even if the race prepped car will do everything a little better).

IIRC magazines favored the new edge SN95 over the 4th gen for the same reasons even though the 4th gen would walk to floor with it at pretty much everything. I doubt it is coincidence the mustang was the big seller during that time either even though the competition was "the better car".

And it could also be a bunch of BS trying to not make one car look bad and piss off advertisers...only way to know is to drive the cars yourself instead of bench racing magazine articles. :chug:

I seen the test and it seems to me that
the ZL1 was the all around car and the
Mustang just did good at the track.
If you are talking performance and
apples to apples put 650hp on the
Camaro and lets see who wins.
Am I right fellas...
P.S and the Camaro is 800lbs more

mustang every time its lighter more agile shelbys are built for track use that was how it started thats how it is Just like the Vette it to was built for the track to compete with the ferraries and lambos simple and easy its the facts the new camero is a 2 ton beast its heavy and big just as the challengers are , mustangs competeing against the camero with 450 HP vs the 4.6 315 the stangs still won its a power to weight ratio simple math, if you dont believe me look it up on all levels the camero lost , Now the camero is a nice car just not the same the ride is better due to weight and suspension the interieors are more plush ect ,

mustang every time its lighter more agile shelbys are built for track use that was how it started thats how it is Just like the Vette it to was built for the track to compete with the ferraries and lambos simple and easy its the facts the new camero is a 2 ton beast its heavy and big just as the challengers are , mustangs competeing against the camero with 450 HP vs the 4.6 315 the stangs still won its a power to weight ratio simple math, if you dont believe me look it up on all levels the camero lost , Now the camero is a nice car just not the same the ride is better due to weight and suspension the interieors are more plush ect ,


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-r3OHxzEqJRM/T-3bKg_BnOI/AAAAAAAAARo/zSI9IPNyNP4/s400/English+Grammar+Workbook+For+Dummies.jpg


Oh and the 4.6 stock couldn't outrun a one armed man in a wheel chair race, there is a reason they developed the 5.0

Devil's advocate post:

It's sounding very similar to the pitching a bitch people on this site did about the BRZ/FT86 Toyota/Subaru/Scion thing versus the Mustang v6...the v6 was quicker around the track but from the drivers seat feels like shit in comparison. They are also selling as quick as dealerships can get them.

A lot of people keep saying "how often will these cars see a course?". On that same token how much will they see a drag strip, a slalom, a 0-60-0 test, etc versus the time they will spend on the street doing what normal people do with cars. Not necessarily talking about "comfort" or "sissy factor" as much as just enjoying driving the car.

Throw a race prepped car and a street prepped car at the average person and ask them which one they want to drive every day (even if the race prepped car will do everything a little better).

IIRC magazines favored the new edge SN95 over the 4th gen for the same reasons even though the 4th gen would walk to floor with it at pretty much everything. I doubt it is coincidence the mustang was the big seller during that time either even though the competition was "the better car".

And it could also be a bunch of BS trying to not make one car look bad and piss off advertisers...only way to know is to drive the cars yourself instead of bench racing magazine articles. :chug:

the magazines chose that pos over the 4th gen camaros? i like my mustangs, but couldn't really stand the sn's. didn't like anything about them.

but i see your points though.

P.S and the Camaro is 800lbs more:huh:

Am I right fellas...^ Not about that part LOL. :D ;)






mustang every time its lighter more agile shelbys are built for track use that was how it started thats how it is Just like the Vette it to was built for the track to compete with the ferraries and lambos simple and easy its the facts the new camero is a 2 ton beast its heavy and big just as the challengers are , mustangs competeing against the camero with 450 HP vs the 4.6 315 the stangs still won its a power to weight ratio simple math, if you dont believe me look it up on all levels the camero lost , Now the camero is a nice car just not the same the ride is better due to weight and suspension the interieors are more plush ect ,Not sure if you'd heard yet but Chevrolet actually changed the spelling of the name on their favorite pony car, about 46 years ago LOL. :P
It's spelled Camaro now. :lol: ;)

:huh:

^ Not about that part LOL. :D ;)






Not sure if you'd heard yet but Chevrolet actually changed the spelling of the name on their favorite pony car, about 46 years ago LOL. :P
It's spelled Camaro now. :lol: ;)

how come they used red only on the "A"?

so here seems to be the dilemma with the new ZL an the GT5


To Ford ----Subject - GT500----how can you have bigger brakes and less weight than the ZL1 and still have fade like that....did you not track test the thing enough to even notice?


To GM----Subject----ZL1-- How can the ZL1 be equipped with a 6.2L vs the Gt500's 5.8 liter with a similar sized blower, and still be making a whopping 80-95rwhp less.



Id say out of the two dilemmas , that ford has a much easier question to answer on there hands, and less pride to be hurt.


It seems to me, that somewhere along the line, someone did not stress test those brakes, and someone had no clue how much power an LS engine is capable of tolerating. I mean 5.3 Junkyard motors out there pushing well over 600 at the wheels pass after pass, and holding, and this flagship motor is being treated like an old lady in a retirement home right out of the box. I detect a lack of faith on the engineers part, but the thing is.......itll hold.


Solution.....GM needs to unleash that 6.2L crank up that boost, and put it on a diet.....DO SOMETHING!


Ford.....just needs to keep doing what they are doing because its awesome. They dont sit around and wait 5-7 years to redesign the car damn near entirely. Hopefully the new vette will raise the bar high enough to allow gm to build the camaros with enough power to haul that fat ass around.

how come they used red only on the "A"?Well, ya know, red was a popular color back then, or so I hear LOL. :D ;)

I8UE4RD - the blower on the ZL1 isn't a similar size, it's much smaller and runs less boost. The TVS blower in the GT500 is basically the same blower used in the 640hp ZR1. Much closer in power.

so here seems to be the dilemma with the new ZL an the GT5


To Ford ----Subject - GT500----how can you have bigger brakes and less weight than the ZL1 and still have fade like that....did you not track test the thing enough to even notice?


To GM----Subject----ZL1-- How can the ZL1 be equipped with a 6.2L vs the Gt500's 5.8 liter with a similar sized blower, and still be making a whopping 80-95rwhp less.



Id say out of the two dilemmas , that ford has a much easier question to answer on there hands, and less pride to be hurt.


It seems to me, that somewhere along the line, someone did not stress test those brakes, and someone had no clue how much power an LS engine is capable of tolerating. I mean 5.3 Junkyard motors out there pushing well over 600 at the wheels pass after pass, and holding, and this flagship motor is being treated like an old lady in a retirement home right out of the box. I detect a lack of faith on the engineers part, but the thing is.......itll hold.


Solution.....GM needs to unleash that 6.2L crank up that boost, and put it on a diet.....DO SOMETHING!


Ford.....just needs to keep doing what they are doing because its awesome. They dont sit around and wait 5-7 years to redesign the car damn near entirely. Hopefully the new vette will raise the bar high enough to allow gm to build the camaros with enough power to haul that fat ass around.

Because of this little car known as CORVETTE... and that's not an excuse, that's just a simple fact.

and the shelbys brakes aren't bigger than the zl's.

I seen the test and it seems to me that
the ZL1 was the all around car and the
Mustang just did good at the track.
If you are talking performance and
apples to apples put 650hp on the
Camaro and lets see who wins.
Am I right fellas...
P.S and the Camaro is 800lbs more

This post is full of fail.

so here seems to be the dilemma with the new ZL an the GT5


To Ford ----Subject - GT500----how can you have bigger brakes and less weight than the ZL1 and still have fade like that....did you not track test the thing enough to even notice?

There are more to brakes then size. Something as simple as a pad change could completely get rid of the fade and improve overall stopping power.
You have to consider things like pad life and cost as well, these are street cars, not race cars.


To GM----Subject----ZL1-- How can the ZL1 be equipped with a 6.2L vs the Gt500's 5.8 liter with a similar sized blower, and still be making a whopping 80-95rwhp less.
Id say out of the two dilemmas , that ford has a much easier question to answer on there hands, and less pride to be hurt.
It seems to me, that somewhere along the line, someone did not stress test those brakes, and someone had no clue how much power an LS engine is capable of tolerating. I mean 5.3 Junkyard motors out there pushing well over 600 at the wheels pass after pass, and holding, and this flagship motor is being treated like an old lady in a retirement home right out of the box. I detect a lack of faith on the engineers part, but the thing is.......itll hold.

How are people still posting things like this seriously???
NO manufacturer maxes their engines out, especially GM, they are known for holding back a lot. Has nothing to do with reliability, knowledge or "faith" - its cost and not stepping on the toes of their flag ship car the Corvette. Its been like this since 1953. Why do you think the exact same Fbody LS1 was rated lower then the Corvette LS1, although both dynoed equally?


Solution.....GM needs to unleash that 6.2L crank up that boost, and put it on a diet.....DO SOMETHING!
Ford.....just needs to keep doing what they are doing because its awesome. They dont sit around and wait 5-7 years to redesign the car damn near entirely.

Another amazing comment...
At first GM didn't plan on bringing back the Camaro, when they decided to they used the global Zeta chassis which started being produced in '06 for aussie cars. From there they had to convince the bean counters, then design the car around the chassis, and do extensive testing. Its not like they were just sitting around and then finally decided to produce it.

There are more to brakes then size. Something as simple as a pad change could completely get rid of the fade and improve overall stopping power.
You have to consider things like pad life and cost as well, these are street cars, not race cars.


How are people still posting things like this seriously???
NO manufacturer maxes their engines out, especially GM, they are known for holding back a lot. Has nothing to do with reliability, knowledge or "faith" - its cost and not stepping on the toes of their flag ship car the Corvette. Its been like this since 1953. Why do you think the exact same Fbody LS1 was rated lower then the Corvette LS1, although both dynoed equally?


Another amazing comment...
At first GM didn't plan on bringing back the Camaro, when they decided to they used the global Zeta chassis which started being produced in '06 for aussie cars. From there they had to convince the bean counters, then design the car around the chassis, and do extensive testing. Its not like they were just sitting around and then finally decided to produce it.



and then for a split moment, they considered bringing the camaro home, but decided that canadian jobs were more important than american jobs.

and then for a split moment, they considered bringing the camaro home, but decided that canadian jobs were more important than american jobs.

Another ignorant comment. You are aware that both GM and Ford assemble cars in Canada and Mexico arent you?

Another ignorant comment. You are aware that both GM and Ford assemble cars in Canada and Mexico arent you?

as a matter of fact i am.

i made that comment, because to be honest i am insulted that they chose to continue to build the camaro outside of the country. it is supposed to be americas premier muscle car. it should be built in america. period.

and yes, if ford built the mustang in canada or mexico, i'd probably be just as insulted....and may not have bought it, as it being americas other premier muscle car should be built in america too.

as a matter of fact i am.

i made that comment, because to be honest i am insulted that they chose to continue to build the camaro outside of the country. it is supposed to be americas premier muscle car. it should be built in america. period.

and yes, if ford built the mustang in canada or mexico, i'd probably be just as insulted....and may not have bought it, as it being americas other premier muscle car should be built in america too.

Okay, you are aware that GM was building cars and parts in Canada before the Camaro was a glimmer in anyones eye? Sorry, I just think its stupid to bitch about the car being built less than 40 miles from the United States.

Okay, you are aware that GM was building cars and parts in Canada before the Camaro was a glimmer in anyones eye? Sorry, I just think its stupid to bitch about the car being built less than 40 miles from the United States.



i don't care if it's 40, or 400. from what i recall reading, they had considered bringing camaro's production back here. after the bail out. that would've put about 3,000 people directly to work, and countless others in the support network.
instead of using our tax money to put AMERICANS back to work, they chose to use it to keep canadians employed. THAT is why i have a problem with it. i don't care if parts come from other countries.....we're stuck with that. i wish it weren't that way, but it is what it is. but building the camaro in canada is as bad(in my eyes) as building the corvette in china. it shouldn't be, and it isn't right. not that i don't like canada, but if it's us or them, then i care about us.

not that i don't like canada, but if it's us or them, then i care about us.

But only if its the Mustang, Camaro or Corvette. I see, selective caring.:eyes:

and then for a split moment, they considered bringing the camaro home, but decided that canadian jobs were more important than american jobs.

Please educate yourself:
"Officially, GM wanted to tear down the plant because of their belief the property was more valuable as a vacant lot than a 2.1 million square-foot plant, much too large for just about any use other than a high-production vehicle factory. Keep in mind, however, that the plant also had a mandate that it would be the sole source for Camaros and Firebirds. It now begins to come into focus that any comment on a future Camaro or Firebird prior to the plant's disposal, via sale or demolition, perhaps could very well create a situation where GM would be compelled to keep the plant. From a legal perspective, it might be construed that any future car that carried the name Camaro or Firebird would have to be made at this plant, at least till 2017, the year all Canadian government loans are to be repaid."

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0409phr_2007_chevrolet_camaro/index.html

so wait? they took a bail out from canada too?

so wait? they took a bail out from canada too?

Are you into the whole "Ford didnt take a bailout" thing. LOL because thats not true.

just for informational purposes camaros have more american parts content than mustangs.


http://wot.motortrend.com/top-cars-north-american-parts-content-67627.html


but while there were good reasons GM has 5th gens built in canada id rather it be built here also. but US and canada work closely together and help support each other.

i don't care if it's 40, or 400. from what i recall reading, they had considered bringing camaro's production back here. after the bail out. that would've put about 3,000 people directly to work, and countless others in the support network.
instead of using our tax money to put AMERICANS back to work, they chose to use it to keep canadians employed. THAT is why i have a problem with it. i don't care if parts come from other countries.....we're stuck with that. i wish it weren't that way, but it is what it is. but building the camaro in canada is as bad(in my eyes) as building the corvette in china. it shouldn't be, and it isn't right. not that i don't like canada, but if it's us or them, then i care about us.

If you don't like your northern neighbour that much, blame your federal government and local government for making it financially smarter to build cars in other places than the U.S. And if you want GM to spend more $$ on americans to build cars, then the cost vs competitors will put them out of the market....again.

As a Canadian, with no bad feelings for my southern neighbours whatsoever, I am astonished at the lack of knowledge and education when it comes to our trade partnerships, one so complex that petty vehicles rank very low on the scale of importance. Trust me when I tell you 3000 jobs aren't going to fix your economy any time soon!

so wait? they took a bail out from canada too?
Seriously? Thats what you got out of that?
I guess I need to be more specific...
any future car that carried the name Camaro or Firebird would have to be made at this plant, at least till 2017
If they want to use the "Camaro" name, the car has to be made there.

They where bound buy a contract to build the cars there until a set date but when they stopped making the f-body twins they had no plans of bringing them back so when/if they did they either had to wait until the terms of the contract where fulfilled or past said date so GM had no choice but to build it there or pay out the ass in a lawsuit. As much as it sucks to see it built else where it really doesn't matter since all automobile companies build different cars all over the world not just in there country. At the end of the day just be glad we still have the stang and have back the camaro to have these arguments over.:chug:

i fully understand they all build em all over the place. that doesn't mean i hafta like it though. wonder what kind of can o worms i'd open up if i said that i thought that NAFTA was the beginning of the end for this country.

that all said, what you guys are missing, is that i LIKE the camaro. i just happen to like the mustang a little better. that's a large part of why it pisses me off so badly that it's not built at home.....and that they went down under for the chassis. chevy's better than that.

i fully understand they all build em all over the place. that doesn't mean i hafta like it though. wonder what kind of can o worms i'd open up if i said that i thought that NAFTA was the beginning of the end for this country.

that all said, what you guys are missing, is that i LIKE the camaro. i just happen to like the mustang a little better. that's a large part of why it pisses me off so badly that it's not built at home.....and that they went down under for the chassis. chevy's better than that.

ROTFL - NAFTA bad for U.S. Don't worry, we will just double the cost of your crude for a month and see how that makes you feel about gas at the pump and who can afford energy at that point.

Of course, that won't happen, just saying, your northern neighbour provides over 50% of your imported crude.

ROTFL - NAFTA bad for U.S. Don't worry, we will just double the cost of your crude for a month and see how that makes you feel about gas at the pump and who can afford energy at that point.

Of course, that won't happen, just saying, your northern neighbour provides over 50% of your imported crude.

unless i'm missing something....and i very possibly am......we were already trading with you guys, and other countries. nafta was a way to allow jobs to leave the country from my understanding. again, i could be wrong.

who friggin cares Harleys are assembled in the U.S and every part on em comes from all over the world , again who cares , our government likes it that way and that is the way it will stay, Mr. Obama will soon make sure the muscle cars and anything else that uses fossle fuel will be dead and gone. we can as they do in the third world walk ride a bicycle, or sit in our dark cave and rot for all he and his cronies care, get used to it cause the next 4 years will be the end of the automobiles as we know it, when the GM boys he bailed out get him re elected then the hammer will drop, 4 more years of nothing to stop him executive order one after another will kill this country just give him the 4 he needs he will take care of the rest for you

who friggin cares Harleys are assembled in the U.S and every part on em comes from all over the world , again who cares , our government likes it that way and that is the way it will stay, Mr. Obama will soon make sure the muscle cars and anything else that uses fossle fuel will be dead and gone. we can as they do in the third world walk ride a bicycle, or sit in our dark cave and rot for all he and his cronies care, get used to it cause the next 4 years will be the end of the automobiles as we know it, when the GM boys he bailed out get him re elected then the hammer will drop, 4 more years of nothing to stop him executive order one after another will kill this country just give him the 4 he needs he will take care of the rest for you

http://hookedonhouses.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Hepburns-Please-Go-Away-Sign.jpg

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2011/10/full_retard.jpg

Can't tell if this guy is serious or trying to give Simple Jack a run for the title on tech.

ROTFL - NAFTA bad for U.S. Don't worry, we will just double the cost of your crude for a month and see how that makes you feel about gas at the pump and who can afford energy at that point.

Of course, that won't happen, just saying, your northern neighbour provides over 50% of your imported crude.

the only problem with that situation is that the Canadian Military is woefully unprepared for a US offensive.

i fully understand they all build em all over the place. that doesn't mean i hafta like it though.
Im pretty sure just about everyone here doesn't like it either, but you were pointing fingers like they want to build them there and "don't care about US jobs", please do some damn research before posting.


that all said, what you guys are missing, is that i LIKE the camaro. i just happen to like the mustang a little better. that's a large part of why it pisses me off so badly that it's not built at home.....and that they went down under for the chassis. chevy's better than that.
The Fbody hasn't been built at home for quite some time now, not many people can do anything about it until the contract is up.
As far as the chassis goes, what else were they supposed to do? They certainly didn't have the funding to develop a completely new chassis for just one car, and that would have taken even longer as well (think about how much more people would be bitching if it took even longer than it already did). Its a global chassis anyway (although mainly used in australia).
Its not like Ford didn't do the same, the s197 is based off an old Jaguar chassis...

Mr. Obama will soon make sure the muscle cars and anything else that uses fossle fuel will be dead and gone.

The big 3 are currently making the most powerful, fastest cars they have ever made by a long shot, Obama sure is working overtime on getting rid of the muscle car isn't he? :eyes:

Loosely. It uses mostly new architecture, mostly in the suspension of course.

Loosely. It uses mostly new architecture, mostly in the suspension of course.

compromised lol. cmon thats funny!

That is a big stretch you are hinting at.

Im pretty sure just about everyone here doesn't like it either, but you were pointing fingers like they want to build them there and "don't care about US jobs", please do some damn research before posting.


The Fbody hasn't been built at home for quite some time now, not many people can do anything about it until the contract is up.
As far as the chassis goes, what else were they supposed to do? They certainly didn't have the funding to develop a completely new chassis for just one car, and that would have taken even longer as well (think about how much more people would be bitching if it took even longer than it already did). Its a global chassis anyway (although mainly used in australia).
Its not like Ford didn't do the same, the s197 is based off an old Jaguar chassis...

Considered a new platform by Ford Motor Company, D2C is loosely based on the Ford DEW platform which served as the basis for the Lincoln LS, Ford Thunderbird, and Jaguar S-Type.


so actually the s-type was based on a ford platform.

Considered a new platform by Ford Motor Company, D2C is loosely based on the Ford DEW platform which served as the basis for the Lincoln LS, Ford Thunderbird, and Jaguar S-Type.


so actually the s-type was based on a ford platform.


The platform was developed by both Ford and Jaguar engineers, and debuted in the Lincoln LS sedan.

So actually you are wrong again. :eyes: How jaded you are when it comes to ford is actually sad.

The platform was developed by both Ford and Jaguar engineers, and debuted in the Lincoln LS sedan.

So actually you are wrong again. :eyes: How jaded you are when it comes to ford is actually sad.

THE lincoln ls is on a different platform. try again.

the only problem with that situation is that the Canadian Military is woefully unprepared for a US offensive.

I expected this to come up....

You can fight China for it, lol!!!

I expected this to come up....

You can fight China for it, lol!!!

If that's the case the sooner the better, time only benefits them.

THE lincoln ls is on a different platform. try again.

You do realize you just contradicted your own post from about an hour earlier, right?

Considered a new platform by Ford Motor Company, D2C is loosely based on the Ford DEW platform which served as the basis for the Lincoln LS, Ford Thunderbird, and Jaguar S-Type.


so actually the s-type was based on a ford platform.

Also, you were right the first time. The S-Type, Thunderbird, and THE Lincoln LS all share the same chassis. Same power trains too in the case of the Tbird and LS.

THE lincoln ls is on a different platform. try again.

D2C is loosely based on the Ford DEW platform

Do not even read the things you actually post yourself?

You do realize you just contradicted your own post from about an hour earlier, right?



Also, you were right the first time. The S-Type, Thunderbird, and THE Lincoln LS all share the same chassis. Same power trains too in the case of the Tbird and LS.

no, i didn't. it is loosely based. it is not the same. it is different. and again, it was a ford chassis under the s-type. and for what it's worth, i thought that ford took a shitty product(jaguar) and made it so much worse, that the shitty jags looked good compared to the ford jags.

but the chassis is different, and it also isn't a "global" chassis.


A less-expensive variant known as DEW Lite was originally to be used for the 2005 Ford Mustang, but the platform was significantly redesigned to become the Ford D2C platform instead.

Differences between D2C and DEW98 are most noticeable in the suspension: The DEW98-based Lincoln LS uses a 4-wheel independent double wishbone suspension. The D2C platform's MacPherson strut front suspension and solid axle rear suspension are less expensive to produce than DEW's more complicated setup.