Advanced Engineering Tech - Jager Aluminum Rods

I heard mention of these rods in another thread here and felt it was worthy of some research. Information on the internet is pretty nill at this point. I did find this article in a web cache here (http://cache.zoominfo.com/CachedPage/?archive_id=0&page_id=538207207&page_url=%2f%2fwww.competitionplus.com%2f05_14_200 3%2fnextgen_rods.html&page_last_updated=11%2f30%2f2003+8%3a26%3a53+AM&firstName=Kirk&lastName=Jager) (Pictures no workie). A brief synopsis:
Jager has perfected a process that alters the molecular structure of aluminum that greatly increases his strength. He has developed extreme duty connecting rods that weigh 2/3's or less of what a comparable steel rod weigh with the same or greater durability!!! The dept. of energy has taken an interest in his work for the large OEM markets. Cool stuff, I hope it makes it to the widespread consumer market soon!!

nice link
here is the patent....#20040107794
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20040107794.html
lots of info

The rods were outlawed in '04 in NHRA Pro Stock and then in IHRA Pro Stock. Jager had to junk $80K in rods useless to any other forms of racing. Kirk will be back making rods as soon as the bar stock lands. He had hoped to be mfg. the first quarter of '07 but with the boom in aircraft his aluminum delivery has been delayed by 20 weeks.

As a side note Jager has a 355 SBC with a 144 blower on it that dropped a valve a few months back. It has the original prototype rods in it. They are over 6 years old and have about 38K miles on them being the engine had been in both a street strip car and then a pick up truck. The latter saw a few 14 hour trips up to MI when Jager would visit home.

A 6" rod can weight in the 415 gm range and take 1000 HP.

This Jager guy lives like 5 minutes from me. Wierd.

Chris, just saw you're from the Tri-cities. What part?

Yeah theyve been around for a few years, pretty pimp but pretty damned pricey. Sounds fancy if you can say "I have transformed aluminum rods" though :)

GrannySShifting

At the risk of sounding simple minded and or naive, what is the difference between this: ....electrochemically processing the aluminum alloy connecting rod components in order to form an aluminum oxide matrix on the surface and sealing the interstitial cavities of the matrix with an inert fluoropolymer to thus provide a composite layer providing added surface hardness and lubricity in order to decrease seizing and deformation of the connecting rod during use.. . . .

And hard anodizing of aluminum?

Karl

This Jager guy lives like 5 minutes from me. Wierd.

Chris, just saw you're from the Tri-cities. What part?

Boones Creek....

Join the club, I'm about 2 minutes from it. I live across from Performance Watersports on the old JC highway coming out of Gray.

At the risk of sounding simple minded and or naive, what is the difference between this: ....electrochemically processing the aluminum alloy connecting rod components in order to form an aluminum oxide matrix on the surface and sealing the interstitial cavities of the matrix with an inert fluoropolymer to thus provide a composite layer providing added surface hardness and lubricity in order to decrease seizing and deformation of the connecting rod during use.. . . .

And hard anodizing of aluminum?

Karl

Its teflon coated anodized aluminum. duh!

:jest:

Its teflon coated anodized aluminum. duh!

:jest:

I hear you on that. I can see how the splayed bolts are "different" but I cannot see how the "transformed aluminum" is any different from commercially available coatings from places like ROSS, (top fuel green coating or the super dense black skirt which is hard anodizing with teflon seal on the skirts).

I'm trying to learn something here. I really looks like its the same thing but with just different wording.

Karl

I'm trying to learn something here. I really looks like its the same thing but with just different wording.

Karl

That's all marketing is.

I hear you on that. I can see how the splayed bolts are "different" but I cannot see how the "transformed aluminum" is any different from commercially available coatings from places like ROSS, (top fuel green coating or the super dense black skirt which is hard anodizing with teflon seal on the skirts).

I'm trying to learn something here. I really looks like its the same thing but with just different wording.

Karl

It's not a coating. The aluminum to a certain depth is transformed. The process increases the rod strength 5X's.

Also the lubricity of the material allows one to run no babbit bearings if you choose and very tight oil clearances. The PS teams running them were at .0005" oil clearance.

It's not a coating. The aluminum to a certain depth is transformed. The process increases the rod strength 5X's.

Also the lubricity of the material allows one to run no babbit bearings if you choose and very tight oil clearances. The PS teams running them were at .0005" oil clearance.
Once the material has been transformed can you finish machine the transformed material (i.e. the rod and pin journals) or is it sized before the transformation process?

Me thinks there is no "transformation". As mentioned above the description is anodized aluminum coated in teflon, basically. As far as the "clearances" go, don't think so, and you don't know what the hole size is in the engine, only how shipped. Aluminum rods are also very sensitive to oil temperature.

Its just another freaking aluminum rod that everyone that has a cnc mill can make. There's nothing new under the sun there.

CStraub: I'm still not following you on the advanced tech of this.

I guess in a nut shell I'm trying to raise a marketing flag.

As far as I know, all manufactures who want to make aluminum stiffer = (overall stronger), will do the chemical surface treatment (transformation) called hard anodizing. Titan gerotor oil pumps are hard anodized aluminum and are 1000 times "stronger" than something like a billet moroso oil pump. (probably a bad misquote of Bob Sanders...sorry).

A top fuel green coating on a ROSS piston is a hard anodizing process. (not a coating technically). It makes the piston 'stronger' and 'slipery'.

The literature linked in this thread speaks about the Jager rod and the surface transformation as an aluminum oxide (anodizing) with teflon surface, (coating).


Let me rephrase the question. I see this as possibly a refinement of current anodizing and coating technology. Has anyone here reading this thread been involved with the Jager process directly who can shed a bit more light for me and show that the Jager rod is not "simply" a teflon coated hard anodized billet aluminum rod?

The literature also states that the surface treatment requires the part to be sized smaller to compensate, (exactly like a ROSS piston prior to it's hard anodizing). If you machine the part it will take away that surface treatment. That's how I read the Jager rod links.

Karl

It's not a coating. The aluminum to a certain depth is transformed. The process increases the rod strength 5X's.

Also the lubricity of the material allows one to run no babbit bearings if you choose and very tight oil clearances. The PS teams running them were at .0005" oil clearance.


Chris, I think your wasting your time here. Your head's gonna hurt. :bang:

Me thinks there is no "transformation". As mentioned above the description is anodized aluminum coated in teflon, basically. As far as the "clearances" go, don't think so, and you don't know what the hole size is in the engine, only how shipped. Aluminum rods are also very sensitive to oil temperature.

Its just another freaking aluminum rod that everyone that has a cnc mill can make. There's nothing new under the sun there.

Hmm, well our tax dollars have paid for testing at the US Dept of Energy Test Facility in Oakridge, TN. Several OEM have already been in contact with Jager about the process and its use for connecting rods, blower housings, and external oil pumps.

I have seen the bore sizing on the outlawed NHRA prostock rods. I have seen measured a set of PS rods with 150 passes on them out of top NHRA teams engine. 7 rods were within spec of when they left 1 rod had stretched .0001"

Temperature does not affect these rods.

6 years ago I didn't believe it either, an aluminum rod that will live where any steel rod will. . .Nope not buying it. Well they're real, they come from NE TN, and they are ugly green.

Once the material has been transformed can you finish machine the transformed material (i.e. the rod and pin journals) or is it sized before the transformation process?

Finish honing is done after transformation.

how much do they cost and where can we buy them if we were interested???

Karl,

I am not an engineer but this is what I do know:

The original prototype rods have over 38K miles on them in a 355 blower engine.

I personally have sold them to several dirt track sprint car teams that have run them successfully for 3 and 4 years.

The Dept. of Energy after cycle and yield testing called Detroit and had them contact Jager about the possiblities of the rod for OEM production engines.

I personally own a cam lobe (8620 billet) that was flat sided by a Jager rod when the engine did not have enough clearance between the rod and the camshaft.

I talked to Kirk after NHRA banned his 415gm Pro Stock rod after it had been found in an engine along with some other items that had been "Transformed". Two weeks later IHRA banned them. I was with him at Bristol in '02 when myself and Mark Cathell took Kirk around to talk to the NHRA teams. Only 1 team at the time would listen. That team went on to dominate PS in NHRA.

I know that in IHRA testing the rods were worth a peak of 52HP on an engine and an average of 35HP throughout the powerband after removing the Ti rods that were 100gms heaver per rod then the Jagers.

Marketing BS doesn't get outlawed, a better mouse trap does....

Well I don't mean to sound like a hater or cynic because I could just ignore the thread but aluminum rods have been used for years and I have heard stories about nearly every brand lasting for 10's of thousands of street miles in some car by a marketing department or just some guy. It became particularly bad in the mid 90's when CNC equipment became more affordable and CNC vendors starting machining aluminum rods right before the eyes of the visitors at the PRI show. Lots of new names popped up with everybody claiming superiority as usual. Of course as usual you still needed to replace your rods at regular intervals appropriate to your combination regardless of who made them.

I still have the same set of SuperRods (real forged rods) from the late 90's and they're not broken or deformed because.....the engine hasn't been run in years. They were successfully resized once and they're in great shape.

The real test of an aluminum rod is their use in a dirt track car. If they can survive half a season of hard racing in a dirt late model they can handle any kind of drag abuse IMO.

Have the Jaeger rods been sucessfully tested in an oval track environment?

What magic causes the rods not to be affected and change size from temperature?

Chris, I think your wasting your time here. Your head's gonna hurt. :bang:

Ed,
I deal with it everyday, I'm just thankfull I can go pound nails on my deck project to relieve the stress.

I introduced Kirk to French Grimes several years ago. The rods have been used in several Super Late Dirt Late models, Sprints, STAR Series, and Hava Tampa 358's. You are correct, a drag engine has nothing on a 15 to 1 Alky engine that has to run 75 laps at 1/2 mile dirt track. Their have been some asphalt applications also.


The rods come in 3 series depending on application. The 1000HP series rods run between $1400 and $1600 a set. The higher HP rod get a "Waffled Beam" design along with some other inhancements. These rods are designed for 2500HP and 5000HP applications.

The rods weren't outlawed, the rules were just revised to a minimum weight of 480 grams. NASCAR implemented a similar rule in advance of the NHRA. NHRA also wanted to remove some parts made of exotic and toxic materials such as beryllium in an effort to reduce some of the exotic factor and as a result hopefully prolong the life of engine builders. Surprisingly there are no rules regarding the materials in the rest of the driveline such as the transmission for instance.

The rods weren't outlawed, the rules were just revised to a minimum weight of 480 grams. NASCAR implemented a similar rule in advance of the NHRA. NHRA also wanted to remove some parts made of exotic and toxic materials such as beryllium in an effort to reduce some of the exotic factor and as a result hopefully prolong the life of engine builders. Surprisingly there are no rules regarding the materials in the rest of the driveline such as the transmission for instance.

Jagers rod is catagorized as a Ceramic Composit and therefore it is outlawed. At $1600 to to $2500 a set they are not much more money then a CA Deep Cryo aluminum rod. Now a set of $60K Beryllium Intake and Exhaust valves yes thats expensive but they can sill run Beryllium valve seats. Jager's rods were 415 gms when discovered in a tear down of an NHRA PS engine. I can't comment on the rest of the story in print but could in conversation. . .lets just say MONEY was an issue but not the money the parts cost.

Interesting. I googled jager rods and found you talking about them on other forums. The HotBoat guy brought up MechArt rods which were beautiful bridgelike works of art. I believe the man passed away, I wish I had one of those rod for my desk.

After reading the patent application its pretty clear that they are anodized aluminum rods coated in PTFE. I don't see where the "ceramic composite" comes from but i may not fully understand the definition of ceramic. At any rate its a coating process that should have no bearing on rules unless the marketing of the rods makes calling it a ceramic composite favorable to distinguish itself from the rest of the aluminum rods out there. I mean how many prostock engine builders can you really have for customers? Certainly not a prime market for a business....ok I sold 44 of these things....now what?

Good luck, I understand you are a rep for the product and a man has to make a living.

Heh,heh,heh, give it up Chris.

Finish honing is done after transformation. Chris, I called the MAD Technologies place that was listed when these were first written about over on Competition Plus and got a guy by the name of Ed McLemore. He said he was the sales manager but not knowing any of these gentlemen i didn't buy any at the time. It would seem that eventually the market would come to Kirk, so why not keep the inventory and wait? These would seem ideally suited to a comp engines, even if Pro Stock did ban them. It seems the big organizations always want someone to grease "their" pockets, even though they claim non profit status. Maybe if big business were made to carry their end of the log some of this folishness would end and if they were made to pay taxes this probably wouldn't be an issue, after all they're not a charity or church that help the needy.

Chris, I called the MAD Technologies place that was listed when these were first written about over on Competition Plus and got a guy by the name of Ed McLemore. He said he was the sales manager but not knowing any of these gentlemen i didn't buy any at the time. It would seem that eventually the market would come to Kirk, so why not keep the inventory and wait? These would seem ideally suited to a comp engines, even if Pro Stock did ban them. It seems the big organizations always want someone to grease "their" pockets, even though they claim non profit status. Maybe if big business were made to carry their end of the log some of this folishness would end and if they were made to pay taxes this probably wouldn't be an issue, after all they're not a charity or church that help the needy.

Harold,
You pretty much nailed it as to what the big "organization" did. Jager is no politician and never will be. He is no marketer and never will be. He is truly the type of guy that gets his kicks from making something better then it was.

He has some orders from some Comp engine builders. Word got out to these builders from the PS guys and the rod will be used in these engines in the future.

I spoke with Jager late last week and he hopes to have material in the very near future. This go around he will have some stocking sizes including rods for the LS1 as some of the board sponsors are interested in using them.

[QUOTE=andereck]Interesting. I googled jager rods and found you talking about them on other forums. The HotBoat guy brought up MechArt rods which were beautiful bridgelike works of art. I believe the man passed away, I wish I had one of those rod for my desk.

I got 8 for a BB Chevy. Mechart rods a true work of art. Let me know if you are interested.

Harold,
You pretty much nailed it as to what the big "organization" did. Jager is no politician and never will be. He is no marketer and never will be. He is truly the type of guy that gets his kicks from making something better then it was.

He has some orders from some Comp engine builders. Word got out to these builders from the PS guys and the rod will be used in these engines in the future.

I spoke with Jager late last week and he hopes to have material in the very near future. This go around he will have some stocking sizes including rods for the LS1 as some of the board sponsors are interested in using them. Hi Chris, I have a friend who used to manufacture heavy aluminum blocks for motorcycles. The heavy casting both stopped engine failures and made a platform which could be safely bored out much farther than the stock blocks. The major organization tried to extort money from him too. He refused to give them any and since the blocks had already been in use for quite some time with a real good track record the racing organization relented and let everyone use them. He has since sold off the business, but it made him lots of money. Actually most of the motorcycle blocks produced in the 80s and 90s were made by him with a variety of names on them. (it's a simple thing to cast someone else's name on the end of a motorcycle cylinder block). Was the other man i spoke to actually employed by Kirk?

I don't think this tech is "over my head".
Chris, can you explain how these rods are ceramic and not aluminum?

Ed Wright my buddy, what do you know of these rods and the technology.

Right now I can only see from the description that they are billet aluminum with hard anodizing and teflon coating.


Thanks guys. I'm not trying to be antagonizing. I want to learn something.

Karl Ellwein

www.EllweinEngines.com

Karl,
Check your e-mail.