Phantom timing retard (not KR)
12-20-2006, 02:56 PM
#1
Phantom timing retard (not KR) I have a stock high octane timing table and @ WOT in the 4000 RPM range and higher I'm only see about 19* timing. I thought stock timing was 28*, the only timing differances I see are in the low octane table. Thunder did some minimal tuning when they installed the cam so I did a compare in my HP Tuner's and here it is. Anyone know why I'm not getting all my timing? I see minimal KR once in a while, it usually only occurs @ lower map readings and dosent happen all the time.
12-20-2006, 03:08 PM
#2
If your logged spark isn't matching up with your commanded spark in your high octane table, and you aren't getting any KR, check your burst knock. Burst knock will pull timing if it sees too much of an airflow transient (like stabbing the throttle).
12-20-2006, 04:53 PM
#4
Originally Posted by ringram
Yeah try zeroing BKR table to test. Just be careful of real knock.
Originally Posted by MeentSS02
If your logged spark isn't matching up with your commanded spark in your high octane table, and you aren't getting any KR, check your burst knock. Burst knock will pull timing if it sees too much of an airflow transient (like stabbing the throttle).
12-20-2006, 04:55 PM
#5
Originally Posted by MeentSS02
If your logged spark isn't matching up with your commanded spark in your high octane table, and you aren't getting any KR, check your burst knock. Burst knock will pull timing if it sees too much of an airflow transient (like stabbing the throttle).
12-20-2006, 05:26 PM
#6
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Burst knock is a preemptive retardation of timing. As stated when there is a change of airflow over the set amount the timing will retard to prevent actual knock.
I cut mine in half & then logged for KR. The other thing you could do is increase the delta airmass that triggers BKR.
I cut mine in half & then logged for KR. The other thing you could do is increase the delta airmass that triggers BKR.
12-20-2006, 05:39 PM
#7
Originally Posted by 5.7 ute
Burst knock is a preemptive retardation of timing. As stated when there is a change of airflow over the set amount the timing will retard to prevent actual knock.
I cut mine in half & then logged for KR. The other thing you could do is increase the delta airmass that triggers BKR.
I cut mine in half & then logged for KR. The other thing you could do is increase the delta airmass that triggers BKR.
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12-20-2006, 08:09 PM
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more info. SD only tune? You still using your MAF with the cam? this happens in all gears on a 4 gear pull? on a dyno? one gear from a roll in a cold/hot car? can you get it to happen every time or only sometimes? When this is happening does your car run rough or just like dump truck with a full load?
not to be a pain but there are so many things that could happen to either make your knock sensors see real knock or they are getting fooled so you are stuck in the crud gas table. You need to figure out which is happening.
something like this would go a long way to figure out what is going on:
B K R enable delta cyl air vs RPM can be set to stock value for idle (0 - 800) for all rpms (0.040 on my SS, higher means it will allow MORE of a difference BEFORE it initiates KR) and BKR vs RPM to 1 for 3200 and up and blend that in from 2000 up to 3200 (6,4,2 then all 1's from there) this table is just how much KR is applied so you would lower it for less KR.
do you have a cable to datalog when this is occurring? You know your timing so I am assuming you can but where is your AFR when this is happening? if you go lean/really fat you can cause real knock that can kill a few degrees, but 9 is a lot because usually the crud fuel table is only used for a short time depending on KR Attack (how fast) and then the timing becomes a blend of the two moving back to the high octane values at a rate controlled by KR Decay. I changed both of them to happen less quick and recover faster. if KR Learn Enable multiplier is lower between normal operating temps 122 to 194 that is another way to control how much KR but all these things are designed to protect your engine from a gas Mickey or running your car at 220 degrees without realizing it so make sure you datalog a lot and do it at your own risk.
It sounds like your K sensors are not happy, if you are sure that you don't have some other serious problem you can make your K sensors less sensitive by changing Tip in TPS and vs RPM vs Cyl under K Sensor level and K Sensor global gain. I haven't cammed my SS yet so this might be a by product of that or maybe you need a SD tune.
if you post your tune, scans or whatever I'll try to peek at it, or compare it to your stock tune and post just the differences, that might point to something but it doesn't add up to me.
If you are wondering why I was getting KR in the middle of a drag pass, my damn purge canister was dumping excess pressure into my intake stream making me go 1/2 point lean which on my ragged edge tune equaled 3.5* K R, that was not easy to figure out either!
not to be a pain but there are so many things that could happen to either make your knock sensors see real knock or they are getting fooled so you are stuck in the crud gas table. You need to figure out which is happening.
something like this would go a long way to figure out what is going on:
B K R enable delta cyl air vs RPM can be set to stock value for idle (0 - 800) for all rpms (0.040 on my SS, higher means it will allow MORE of a difference BEFORE it initiates KR) and BKR vs RPM to 1 for 3200 and up and blend that in from 2000 up to 3200 (6,4,2 then all 1's from there) this table is just how much KR is applied so you would lower it for less KR.
do you have a cable to datalog when this is occurring? You know your timing so I am assuming you can but where is your AFR when this is happening? if you go lean/really fat you can cause real knock that can kill a few degrees, but 9 is a lot because usually the crud fuel table is only used for a short time depending on KR Attack (how fast) and then the timing becomes a blend of the two moving back to the high octane values at a rate controlled by KR Decay. I changed both of them to happen less quick and recover faster. if KR Learn Enable multiplier is lower between normal operating temps 122 to 194 that is another way to control how much KR but all these things are designed to protect your engine from a gas Mickey or running your car at 220 degrees without realizing it so make sure you datalog a lot and do it at your own risk.
It sounds like your K sensors are not happy, if you are sure that you don't have some other serious problem you can make your K sensors less sensitive by changing Tip in TPS and vs RPM vs Cyl under K Sensor level and K Sensor global gain. I haven't cammed my SS yet so this might be a by product of that or maybe you need a SD tune.
if you post your tune, scans or whatever I'll try to peek at it, or compare it to your stock tune and post just the differences, that might point to something but it doesn't add up to me.
If you are wondering why I was getting KR in the middle of a drag pass, my damn purge canister was dumping excess pressure into my intake stream making me go 1/2 point lean which on my ragged edge tune equaled 3.5* K R, that was not easy to figure out either!
12-20-2006, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by WS6HUMMER
On my OS I only have one Burst Knock adjustment and it's "burst knock enable delta cyl air vs RPM". It plots RPM vs cyl air Delta, so would I increase or decrease these values?
12-21-2006, 09:01 AM
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Look at the value of your Knock Learn Factor, adaptive
spark or whatever you call it in EFILive world. That you
have only low-level KR now, may be a result of it having
learned away most of it by driving toward the low
octane table.
There are a bunch of components to the final spark
advance value, in the HPT scanner there are things like
IAT advance, ECT advance, blah blah blah and a bunch
of separate retard terms as well. You can log them all
and see which are non-zero, meddling.
spark or whatever you call it in EFILive world. That you
have only low-level KR now, may be a result of it having
learned away most of it by driving toward the low
octane table.
There are a bunch of components to the final spark
advance value, in the HPT scanner there are things like
IAT advance, ECT advance, blah blah blah and a bunch
of separate retard terms as well. You can log them all
and see which are non-zero, meddling.
12-21-2006, 09:34 AM
#11
Originally Posted by 04snake
more info. SD only tune? You still using your MAF with the cam? this happens in all gears on a 4 gear pull? on a dyno? one gear from a roll in a cold/hot car? can you get it to happen every time or only sometimes? When this is happening does your car run rough or just like dump truck with a full load?
not to be a pain but there are so many things that could happen to either make your knock sensors see real knock or they are getting fooled so you are stuck in the crud gas table. You need to figure out which is happening.
something like this would go a long way to figure out what is going on:
B K R enable delta cyl air vs RPM can be set to stock value for idle (0 - 800) for all rpms (0.040 on my SS, higher means it will allow MORE of a difference BEFORE it initiates KR) and BKR vs RPM to 1 for 3200 and up and blend that in from 2000 up to 3200 (6,4,2 then all 1's from there) this table is just how much KR is applied so you would lower it for less KR.
do you have a cable to datalog when this is occurring? You know your timing so I am assuming you can but where is your AFR when this is happening? if you go lean/really fat you can cause real knock that can kill a few degrees, but 9 is a lot because usually the crud fuel table is only used for a short time depending on KR Attack (how fast) and then the timing becomes a blend of the two moving back to the high octane values at a rate controlled by KR Decay. I changed both of them to happen less quick and recover faster. if KR Learn Enable multiplier is lower between normal operating temps 122 to 194 that is another way to control how much KR but all these things are designed to protect your engine from a gas Mickey or running your car at 220 degrees without realizing it so make sure you datalog a lot and do it at your own risk.
It sounds like your K sensors are not happy, if you are sure that you don't have some other serious problem you can make your K sensors less sensitive by changing Tip in TPS and vs RPM vs Cyl under K Sensor level and K Sensor global gain. I haven't cammed my SS yet so this might be a by product of that or maybe you need a SD tune.
if you post your tune, scans or whatever I'll try to peek at it, or compare it to your stock tune and post just the differences, that might point to something but it doesn't add up to me.
If you are wondering why I was getting KR in the middle of a drag pass, my damn purge canister was dumping excess pressure into my intake stream making me go 1/2 point lean which on my ragged edge tune equaled 3.5* K R, that was not easy to figure out either!
not to be a pain but there are so many things that could happen to either make your knock sensors see real knock or they are getting fooled so you are stuck in the crud gas table. You need to figure out which is happening.
something like this would go a long way to figure out what is going on:
B K R enable delta cyl air vs RPM can be set to stock value for idle (0 - 800) for all rpms (0.040 on my SS, higher means it will allow MORE of a difference BEFORE it initiates KR) and BKR vs RPM to 1 for 3200 and up and blend that in from 2000 up to 3200 (6,4,2 then all 1's from there) this table is just how much KR is applied so you would lower it for less KR.
do you have a cable to datalog when this is occurring? You know your timing so I am assuming you can but where is your AFR when this is happening? if you go lean/really fat you can cause real knock that can kill a few degrees, but 9 is a lot because usually the crud fuel table is only used for a short time depending on KR Attack (how fast) and then the timing becomes a blend of the two moving back to the high octane values at a rate controlled by KR Decay. I changed both of them to happen less quick and recover faster. if KR Learn Enable multiplier is lower between normal operating temps 122 to 194 that is another way to control how much KR but all these things are designed to protect your engine from a gas Mickey or running your car at 220 degrees without realizing it so make sure you datalog a lot and do it at your own risk.
It sounds like your K sensors are not happy, if you are sure that you don't have some other serious problem you can make your K sensors less sensitive by changing Tip in TPS and vs RPM vs Cyl under K Sensor level and K Sensor global gain. I haven't cammed my SS yet so this might be a by product of that or maybe you need a SD tune.
if you post your tune, scans or whatever I'll try to peek at it, or compare it to your stock tune and post just the differences, that might point to something but it doesn't add up to me.
If you are wondering why I was getting KR in the middle of a drag pass, my damn purge canister was dumping excess pressure into my intake stream making me go 1/2 point lean which on my ragged edge tune equaled 3.5* K R, that was not easy to figure out either!
Hewhat's going on.
I'm getting a lot of good info from so many people I guess I'll start with one and go from there.
Last edited by WS6HUMMER; 12-21-2006 at 09:40 AM.
12-21-2006, 10:15 AM
#13
Originally Posted by jimmyblue
Look at the value of your Knock Learn Factor, adaptive
spark or whatever you call it in EFILive world. That you
have only low-level KR now, may be a result of it having
learned away most of it by driving toward the low
octane table.
There are a bunch of components to the final spark
advance value, in the HPT scanner there are things like
IAT advance, ECT advance, blah blah blah and a bunch
of separate retard terms as well. You can log them all
and see which are non-zero, meddling.
spark or whatever you call it in EFILive world. That you
have only low-level KR now, may be a result of it having
learned away most of it by driving toward the low
octane table.
There are a bunch of components to the final spark
advance value, in the HPT scanner there are things like
IAT advance, ECT advance, blah blah blah and a bunch
of separate retard terms as well. You can log them all
and see which are non-zero, meddling.
Here's a stock table for my car
Last edited by WS6HUMMER; 12-21-2006 at 10:23 AM.
12-21-2006, 10:19 AM
#14
Eh...the IAT table doesn't look completely out of the ordinary, but that's also why I went and zeroed out all of those tables. I want the timing I command when I command it. I don't like the different environmental tables that have their grubby little fingers in it when you don't want them to.
12-21-2006, 10:26 AM
#15
Originally Posted by MeentSS02
Eh...the IAT table doesn't look completely out of the ordinary, but that's also why I went and zeroed out all of those tables. I want the timing I command when I command it. I don't like the different environmental tables that have their grubby little fingers in it when you don't want them to.
12-21-2006, 10:31 AM
#17
questions like this are very hard to determine without the hpt & hpl files...we can all speculate but until we see ALL of your adder tables its hard to determine whats going on. Besides we cant see your G/cyl meaning we can't tell where on your octane table its looking for timing.
12-21-2006, 10:39 AM
#18
Originally Posted by foff667
questions like this are very hard to determine without the hpt & hpl files...we can all speculate but until we see ALL of your adder tables its hard to determine whats going on. Besides we cant see your G/cyl meaning we can't tell where on your octane table its looking for timing.
