Dyno tunes?
04-18-2007, 06:42 PM
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Dyno tunes? Im still lost as to why people still pay for a "dyno tune". Its maybe 1 hour scewing a table or 2 to get a half assed WOT A/F down. Even then, when you put it on the street, its going to run leaner anyways. I dont see why people still pay for them when it doesnt even break the surface of tuning.
I did a complete tune to a friends car today and it took ~ 4 hours to do. Over an hour was just driving and logging. I rebuilt the VE table, made some timing changes, recal'ed the MAF and some other small things and t was just a bolt on car.
I think I found me a new side job
I did a complete tune to a friends car today and it took ~ 4 hours to do. Over an hour was just driving and logging. I rebuilt the VE table, made some timing changes, recal'ed the MAF and some other small things and t was just a bolt on car.
I think I found me a new side job
04-18-2007, 07:18 PM
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we just dont know people who have tuning programs for our cars, and cant pay to buy one. And we need a tune, it gave me 15rwhp and made the car sound alot better and feel alot faster, and i have no ses lights anymore. all for 300$
04-18-2007, 07:24 PM
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I'm not going to name names, but I have been into one tune
recently that was done by someone whose nuts must be
scraping ground from all the swinging-on and I saw whack-job
1.3xx PE numbers, an open loop EQ table that's all 1.000 and
the car left the tuner idling as crappy as it went in. That and
I think the whole episode netted the owner like 5HP more than
my blind-guess get-it-to-the-dyno tune done for free.
Now to be fair it's taken me maybe 8 hours of occasional
tuning episodes and some studying up to get it to idle "fair"
but what really astounded me was that someone would
push fat fuel numbers onto a car rather than figure out
why it was showing lean on the dyno and fix it right. I think
it's a MAF problem (car shows way less air than mine, but
has way more intake / TB / cam). But swapping on my saved
virgin stocker did not make that much of a difference. Some
day I'll figure it out.
In the end you get what you get in an hour and the more
help you need the more is going to be left undone.
If I were tuning cars for a living I'd go broke. You have to
be willing to cut it off and hand over the bill. That is what
makes a "professional".
recently that was done by someone whose nuts must be
scraping ground from all the swinging-on and I saw whack-job
1.3xx PE numbers, an open loop EQ table that's all 1.000 and
the car left the tuner idling as crappy as it went in. That and
I think the whole episode netted the owner like 5HP more than
my blind-guess get-it-to-the-dyno tune done for free.
Now to be fair it's taken me maybe 8 hours of occasional
tuning episodes and some studying up to get it to idle "fair"
but what really astounded me was that someone would
push fat fuel numbers onto a car rather than figure out
why it was showing lean on the dyno and fix it right. I think
it's a MAF problem (car shows way less air than mine, but
has way more intake / TB / cam). But swapping on my saved
virgin stocker did not make that much of a difference. Some
day I'll figure it out.
In the end you get what you get in an hour and the more
help you need the more is going to be left undone.
If I were tuning cars for a living I'd go broke. You have to
be willing to cut it off and hand over the bill. That is what
makes a "professional".
04-18-2007, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jimmyblue
I'm not going to name names, but I have been into one tune
recently that was done by someone whose nuts must be
scraping ground from all the swinging-on and I saw whack-job
1.3xx PE numbers, an open loop EQ table that's all 1.000 and
the car left the tuner idling as crappy as it went in. That and
I think the whole episode netted the owner like 5HP more than
my blind-guess get-it-to-the-dyno tune done for free.
Now to be fair it's taken me maybe 8 hours of occasional
tuning episodes and some studying up to get it to idle "fair"
but what really astounded me was that someone would
push fat fuel numbers onto a car rather than figure out
why it was showing lean on the dyno and fix it right. I think
it's a MAF problem (car shows way less air than mine, but
has way more intake / TB / cam). But swapping on my saved
virgin stocker did not make that much of a difference. Some
day I'll figure it out.
In the end you get what you get in an hour and the more
help you need the more is going to be left undone.
If I were tuning cars for a living I'd go broke. You have to
be willing to cut it off and hand over the bill. That is what
makes a "professional".
recently that was done by someone whose nuts must be
scraping ground from all the swinging-on and I saw whack-job
1.3xx PE numbers, an open loop EQ table that's all 1.000 and
the car left the tuner idling as crappy as it went in. That and
I think the whole episode netted the owner like 5HP more than
my blind-guess get-it-to-the-dyno tune done for free.
Now to be fair it's taken me maybe 8 hours of occasional
tuning episodes and some studying up to get it to idle "fair"
but what really astounded me was that someone would
push fat fuel numbers onto a car rather than figure out
why it was showing lean on the dyno and fix it right. I think
it's a MAF problem (car shows way less air than mine, but
has way more intake / TB / cam). But swapping on my saved
virgin stocker did not make that much of a difference. Some
day I'll figure it out.
In the end you get what you get in an hour and the more
help you need the more is going to be left undone.
If I were tuning cars for a living I'd go broke. You have to
be willing to cut it off and hand over the bill. That is what
makes a "professional".
04-18-2007, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by txhorns281
Trust me... keep the day job! 
I agree Jimmy. I looked at my old H/C tune (Big heads and G5X3) from a tuner just as you mentioned and my PE numbers were all different numbers from 1.405 to 1.446, VE untouched (he argued that you dont need to touch it), MAF was only touched in a 1300 Htz range and it was only from 2300-3600 (idle to part throttle) and that was about it and people pay him $350+ for it.
04-18-2007, 11:36 PM
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You can always fudge any number of parameters to get a desired result, but that's just the jerry-built way to do things. I'm all for using this EFI system the way it was designed, it's pretty neat how when you lock down a few base parameters, you can manipulate all aspects of the tune with ease!
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04-19-2007, 01:28 AM
#8
Originally Posted by Country Boy
Im still lost as to why people still pay for a "dyno tune". Its maybe 1 hour scewing a table or 2 to get a half assed WOT A/F down. Even then, when you put it on the street, its going to run leaner anyways. I dont see why people still pay for them when it doesnt even break the surface of tuning.
I did a complete tune to a friends car today and it took ~ 4 hours to do. Over an hour was just driving and logging. I rebuilt the VE table, made some timing changes, recal'ed the MAF and some other small things and t was just a bolt on car.
I think I found me a new side job
I did a complete tune to a friends car today and it took ~ 4 hours to do. Over an hour was just driving and logging. I rebuilt the VE table, made some timing changes, recal'ed the MAF and some other small things and t was just a bolt on car.
I think I found me a new side job
Seriously we spend our life fixing other shops work.Tuning is actually a big thing since everybody is buying a program and 50% of the people are screwing up there car.
As for how to tune it can be fought for a long time.I've tuned many cars many different ways in the last 6 years racking up about 300+ cars.There are ways around the VE table that the car will run absolutely perfect and never change.
04-19-2007, 06:49 AM
#9
A lot has changed in the past 3-4 years when it comes to tuning. We have much better scanners, affordable WB 02 units, better tuning editors, more shared info. Things were more crude back then with the tools we had but it got the job done.
As for dyno tuning, there is nothing wrong with it, but people have to remeber that a dyno is a tuning tool and side benefit that it gives you HP & TQ numbers. It's much safer to use a dyno at WOT, you don't have to worry about speeding tickets and not taking the chance of wrecking the car at 140mph.
As for dyno tuning, there is nothing wrong with it, but people have to remeber that a dyno is a tuning tool and side benefit that it gives you HP & TQ numbers. It's much safer to use a dyno at WOT, you don't have to worry about speeding tickets and not taking the chance of wrecking the car at 140mph.
04-19-2007, 06:52 AM
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Now I wasnt talking about doing it for a living I know there are a ton of ways to fudge other tables to get what you want, but IMHO, it isnt right. My IFR was fudged to get the trims in line. I had the FMS 30# injectors and my highest IFR was ~33 when it should have been 36-39.
That 4 hours included rebuilding the tables, all the driving, loading tunes and having to wait for my ancient laptop to restart everytime I started the car since its battery is shot. Im sure with RTT, it would have been a ton faster, but I didnt want to change the OS.
I know there are a ton of ways to fudge other tables to get what you want, but IMHO, it isnt right. My IFR was fudged to get the trims in line. I had the FMS 30# injectors and my highest IFR was ~33 when it should have been 36-39.That 4 hours included rebuilding the tables, all the driving, loading tunes and having to wait for my ancient laptop to restart everytime I started the car since its battery is shot. Im sure with RTT, it would have been a ton faster, but I didnt want to change the OS.
04-19-2007, 06:55 AM
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A Mustang Dyno would be nice for tuning since you can put the car in any cell you want ad hold it there.
I never got above 80 when doing my WOT tuning. I used 2nd and 3rd gears. Dont need 4th.
I never got above 80 when doing my WOT tuning. I used 2nd and 3rd gears. Dont need 4th.
04-19-2007, 07:04 AM
#12
Originally Posted by Country Boy
Now I wasnt talking about doing it for a living I know there are a ton of ways to fudge other tables to get what you want, but IMHO, it isnt right. My IFR was fudged to get the trims in line. I had the FMS 30# injectors and my highest IFR was ~33 when it should have been 36-39.
That 4 hours included rebuilding the tables, all the driving, loading tunes and having to wait for my ancient laptop to restart everytime I started the car since its battery is shot. Im sure with RTT, it would have been a ton faster, but I didnt want to change the OS.
I know there are a ton of ways to fudge other tables to get what you want, but IMHO, it isnt right. My IFR was fudged to get the trims in line. I had the FMS 30# injectors and my highest IFR was ~33 when it should have been 36-39.That 4 hours included rebuilding the tables, all the driving, loading tunes and having to wait for my ancient laptop to restart everytime I started the car since its battery is shot. Im sure with RTT, it would have been a ton faster, but I didnt want to change the OS.
Throughout the years I've read this board and seen thing's come/go all the time on the new waves of the "correct" way to tune.Everybody has a style that they like but alot of people don't try a bunch of different ways to see what works.I'm just lucky to have a dyno and access to many different setups to test stuff on.
Now,for people to come on here and say which way is right and which way is wrong to tune is pretty sad.Your job as a tuner is to make the factory computer's job easier.The less it has to adjust itself the better the car will run.Your job is to know what timing/fuelling/air is needed. All in all it's pretty simple.
I do agree that there is a ton of hack shops out there that have no idea.
04-19-2007, 07:06 AM
#13
Originally Posted by Country Boy
A Mustang Dyno would be nice for tuning since you can put the car in any cell you want ad hold it there.
I never got above 80 when doing my WOT tuning. I used 2nd and 3rd gears. Dont need 4th.
I never got above 80 when doing my WOT tuning. I used 2nd and 3rd gears. Dont need 4th.
04-19-2007, 07:21 AM
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4th is the way to go, but if you dont have access to kind of road in mid day, I use 3rd. I didnt do much to the spark table since Ive already done it previously so I didnt need to measure for KR. I was mostly doing fueling and AFR.
I can see why a business owner would just scale the IFR lower to get the what you need as time is money, but to me, its like cheating. Also, i dont think it will give you an accurate DC on the injectors since the PCM thinks they are smaller than what they are. I just like to do things the "right" way. Im picky like that.
If you scale the injectors different from what they are, will you still get the commanded PE AFR that you actually command? Ive never thought about doing it that way, thats why I ask. Its is nice when you do have experience and a dyno to see what different ways "work".
Like I mentioned earler, my PE was set to a AFR of 10.16 (na/ H/C car) but on the dyno I was around 12.9. THAT doesnt make sence to me. The only thing I see that would have done that is the IFR table since thats all that was changed for fueling.
I can see why a business owner would just scale the IFR lower to get the what you need as time is money, but to me, its like cheating. Also, i dont think it will give you an accurate DC on the injectors since the PCM thinks they are smaller than what they are. I just like to do things the "right" way. Im picky like that.
If you scale the injectors different from what they are, will you still get the commanded PE AFR that you actually command? Ive never thought about doing it that way, thats why I ask. Its is nice when you do have experience and a dyno to see what different ways "work".
Like I mentioned earler, my PE was set to a AFR of 10.16 (na/ H/C car) but on the dyno I was around 12.9. THAT doesnt make sence to me. The only thing I see that would have done that is the IFR table since thats all that was changed for fueling.
04-19-2007, 07:28 AM
#15
Originally Posted by Country Boy
4th is the way to go, but if you dont have access to kind of road in mid day, I use 3rd. I didnt do much to the spark table since Ive already done it previously so I didnt need to measure for KR. I was mostly doing fueling and AFR.
I can see why a business owner would just scale the IFR lower to get the what you need as time is money, but to me, its like cheating. Also, i dont think it will give you an accurate DC on the injectors since the PCM thinks they are smaller than what they are. I just like to do things the "right" way. Im picky like that.
If you scale the injectors different from what they are, will you still get the commanded PE AFR that you actually command? Ive never thought about doing it that way, thats why I ask. Its is nice when you do have experience and a dyno to see what different ways "work".
Like I mentioned earler, my PE was set to a AFR of 10.16 (na/ H/C car) but on the dyno I was around 12.9. THAT doesnt make sence to me. The only thing I see that would have done that is the IFR table since thats all that was changed for fueling.
I can see why a business owner would just scale the IFR lower to get the what you need as time is money, but to me, its like cheating. Also, i dont think it will give you an accurate DC on the injectors since the PCM thinks they are smaller than what they are. I just like to do things the "right" way. Im picky like that.
If you scale the injectors different from what they are, will you still get the commanded PE AFR that you actually command? Ive never thought about doing it that way, thats why I ask. Its is nice when you do have experience and a dyno to see what different ways "work".
Like I mentioned earler, my PE was set to a AFR of 10.16 (na/ H/C car) but on the dyno I was around 12.9. THAT doesnt make sence to me. The only thing I see that would have done that is the IFR table since thats all that was changed for fueling.
04-20-2007, 03:09 PM
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I don't want to drive my car in 4th gear wide open around here too much! They lock you up for stuff like that.....Rather pay a tuner, or pay for dyno time when I get brave enough to tune. Rather be alive and free 
**** Don't get me wrong 4th gear wide open is cool***
**** Don't get me wrong 4th gear wide open is cool***