Builder

After doing some research, and to keep costs down, I am going to rebuild rather than swap or purchase a short/long block.

I have a couple (lots) of rookie questions before I get started. I've made lots of bolt-on mods, (intake, heads, rockers, etc.), but never built/rebuilt a complete engine. I would like to make the attempt, since I have an SBC in need.

This is the type of parts kit I anticipate purchasing. I don't mind spending an extra $100-$200 on better components, if you have suggestions. I am all ears.

TRUCK USE:
I pull a trailer of about 5,000# once a month for about 500 miles (round trip), but it's over a few mountain passes of 8,000' so I need reasonable HP and torque. That's the extent of the truck's use, except for local moves (loads of of dirt/rock). Some longer trips might be on the horizon.

EXISTING:
Existing engine is an SBC 350 with Edelbrock 1406 (600 CFM carb with electric choke), Edelbrock Performer intake manifold, and Hooker headers coupled to a Stage-II TH350. I did the bolt-ons. I don't know the cam. It's run great for many years, but has serious blow-by now and needs attention (won't smog).

OPTIONS:
I know I have to get the casting numbers from the block and heads to find out what I have and measure the components before making final decisions, but I figure a normal 30-over rebuild is the way to go. This will be a utility application and I want something "vanilla" for my first rebuild attempt. I would also like to keep the carb, intake, and headers to keep the cost down.

I have a great place to work - shop with a lift, engine hoist - but no specialized tools for engine building. I can justify spending some cash on tools, if I can save some on labor. Considering all of the machine work will be contracted, what tools would you say a guy can't live without?

Do you use that mash-plastic stuff to measure bearing clearance and what's the correct procedure?

This may be tough to answer due to variables, but, If you had nothing to do but tear down, measure, and rebuild an SBC, how much time would it take and how much additional time should a rookie add for their first build?

Thanks folks. Your comments are appreciated. I will post some pictures along the way. It's going to take a while, though, as my work requires most of my attention these days.

ici8uup

really cheap you could just re-ring it and throw new bearings in it make sure to keep the lifters in the order on whatever lobe they were removed from new oil pump rings moly,bearings, doulbr roller timing set,frost plugs,plasti gauge is ok just make sure both rods are on the crankpin when tourqing to check clearance otherwise it just smears. all you really need on the way of tools is feeler gauge set to check ring gaps,harmonic damper puller(can be rented) tourqr wrench and a book to tell you the sequence and values,

ici8uup

really cheap you could just re-ring it and throw new bearings in it make sure to keep the lifters in the order on whatever lobe they were removed from new oil pump rings moly,bearings, doulbr roller timing set,frost plugs,plasti gauge is ok just make sure both rods are on the crankpin when tourqing to check clearance otherwise it just smears. all you really need on the way of tools is feeler gauge set to check ring gaps,harmonic damper puller(can be rented) tourqr wrench and a book to tell you the sequence and values,

Builder

Thanks, ici8uup. I do want to save money. Rings and valves would take care of the blow-by, but I also want to keep the truck for a while. It will have to be dependable and pull the trailer for a few years. So, I want to build the engine sufficiently to handle the stresses of summer and winter towing. I will probably take the route of a more complete rebuild.

Not including the time for machining, what would be your estimate on how long it should take to tear the motor down, measure, and rebuild?

1 FMF

iTrader: (1)

http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Builder...0653104&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Bluepri...0653104&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/How-Rebuild-Yo...0653071&sr=1-1

I have the first two and they're pretty good explaining the basics. And if you search amazon i'm sure you can find a few more really good books for ridiculously cheap. I would spend $20 and read before you make a decision. I don't want to deter you from doing the bottom end work yourself, but if time and tools are a problem then it's usually best to have the shop do the whole bottom end plus have it internally balanced. It's going to get a rebore anyway so it's there, and that along with having the mains align honed and the crank journals polished will give you a dependable bottom end. But you need to be clear with whoever is doing the work that this gets done. From there you can do the rest of the work yourself very easy, bolting on oil pump, oil pan, heads, accessories, etc.
For tearing the motor down, once it's out of the truck and on a stand you can have the whole thing disassembled in 30 minutes, barring rusted nuts on the oil pan and things like that. definitely keep your intake, carb, and headers. If you have old sbc heads i would consider at least buying a set of iron vortecs, or other aftermarket aluminum head if you can afford it, with 64cc combustion chambers to get compression over 9:1, that'll give you a strong motor more than anything.

Builder

Those look like good books to add to the library. The disconnect is that I have never seen anyone build an engine and most of the books seem to skip parts that seem logical. There's a thread by "helicoil" on a build-up that's pretty darn good. Maybe I am just as picky and need that level of detail. Even still, because he's apparently done many, many engine builds, and he's addressing an educated readership, a lot of the novice steps are rightfully not included.

Here's the books I have read and still have on the shelf:

• How to Hotrod Small Block Chevrolets
• Pro Engine Blueprinting
• Chevy LS1/LS6 V-8s
• Chevy LS1/LS6 Performance
• Automotive Engine Repair and Rebuilding
• Small-Block Chevy Engine Buildups
• John Lingenfelter on Modifying Small-Block Chevy Engines

I like the idea of letting the machine shop do the bottom end (especially the balancing) and the suggestion for vortex heads. From what you've said, I gather that the existing headers and intake will work with vortex heads. I want to measure the block before it goes to the shop so I know what to ask for (dimensions, tolerances) and what to expect when I pick it up. I wonder if I can arrange a day to hang at the shop and watch the assembly process...have to check on that. I would definitely like to learn the process, as well as save some $$$. Thanks!

pancherj

I did my first engine rebuild before I did my first oil change! I owned my first car (a 1975 Nova) for about two weeks before the engine died (oil filter blew off). I had the book "How to Rebuild your Small Block Chevy" (referenced above). It is fairly stright forward. My big problem was trusting the rotating assembly I bought...One of the rods was way out of round and that engine expired during the cam break in process. Use plastigage or mics!

At the level you are thinking of building this engine, I doubt you will need align honing or balancing of the rotating assembly. Check the core engine over good. The crank and rods may very well be useable. Bore block and replace the pistons if necessary.

I would skip the Vortec heads. They are excellent, but I don't think you need them. I don't think your headers will fit correctly (the exhaust port is raised...more port above the bolt holes as compared to below). Also, your existing manifold definitely wont fit.

Take your time and ask questions as you go along. It is a fun and rewarding experience!

davep_96

Well if I were you I would tear down and reassemble the bottom end yourself. It is really quite easy and you will be glad you did it yourself and learned the whole engine. Definitely have the block bored, and since it will be bored you will need bigger pistons. (ex. a .030 overbore requires .030 larger pistons). Since new pistons will be in order you will need the old ones taken off the rods and the new ones put on them. I would have the machine shop do this for you as the rod pins need to be heated and pressed out, which can be really tricky if you dont have the resources that a shop has. (Like a press)

Other than the rods the rest of the rebuild is pretty easy including the bottom end. The plastic stuff you were talking about is called Plastigage. In a nutshell you put a small piece on a bearing and torque down the bolts. Then remove the bearing cap and take the Plastigage off the bearing and measure it with the package it came in. This will tell you if the clearance is up to spec. All that happens is the plastic is crushed and you are measuring hom much it was crushed. The more it is flattened the tighter or closer the bearing is to the crank. Different bearing might have to be ordered if the clearance isnt right. This is a pretty simple thing to do and I can explain in better detail when the time comes.

Builder

Thanks for the clarification on the Vortec heads. Yes, I am looking forward to learning this craft.

I wouldn't mind adding some basic enhancements for a few hundred bucks, but I do want to keep the headers and intake. Maybe an area of enhancement would be the pistons and rings (?), since I will probably have to replace them.

pancherj

Your engine probably has the 882 head castings on it. They are pretty crappy. They also have big chambers, so it is tough to get good compression. A small dome piston (cast or forged) would help.

Even though I wouldn't switch to Vortec's, doesn't mean I wouldn't think long and hard about replacing your heads. If the guides are worn and the valve job and springs are shot, you will spend $400 easily bringing them back to life. I'd look into some new EQ iron heads for not much more money.

Builder

OK, I am starting to get scope of what I can do and what the shop must do. I understand about the Plastigage.

• Considering the large end rod bearings are not destroyed, do the rod ends generally need cleaning up, or just new bearings?
• Since getting new rod bearings, pistons, etc., does it matter if the rods go back into the same location?
• As long as there's no damage, the crank should be OK. Maybe just polish?
• Seems there are many bearing types. Is there one type that works best in truck engines?

The shop doing the machining will tell me what size bearings I need. If I take them a raw block, rods to swap the pistons out, and raw heads to grind seats and put in new guides, can I expect them to guarantee their work (craftsmanship)?

After thinking about this a little, it seems I should invest in some descent measuring equipment to verify numbers, as well as get some tools. Let me know if there's a short list you've got to have. Thinking a good dial indicator with multiple mounts, a ring compressor, and ring expander at a minimum. I have some air tools and couple of descent torque wrenches.

Builder

It doesn't make any sense to me to rebuild the rotating bits and not the heads along with. I just called AAEQ in Las Vegas to find out about head costs. They said $425 each for assembled heads! That's with new castings (no cores). They offer scrap rates on head cores.

Hadn't thought too much about the heads yet. I would like to do something there to improve performance a little. Dome pistons sounds like a good idea. Of course, I am not replacing the crank, so I probably need to be a little careful about the amount of power I am making.

I will look into the costs on valve jobs locally and post them here...

Builder

I had an LT1 rebuilt locally a few years ago. Called the same machine shop for a quote on the SBC. They said around $1,000 for all of the machine work for the block and heads and $1,800 on the complete rebuild. That's a little more than I thought it would be on the machine work. To that, I would have to add the rebuild parts (another $350) as well.

Called back and spoke with a different guy. $700 to line bore mains, square and deck. $530 for the head work, which includes cutting the seats and new bronze guides.

fleetmgr

New bearings is all you need, but the crank has to be measured for out of round. If you need to have the crank machined, you'll also need undersize rod and/or main bearings.

Yes, keep everything in the same hole. Get a set of metal stamps, and number each rod and each rod cap. Do only one side of each, that way you have an easy reference to which way they go back together. Do the same thing with the main bearing caps. If you get them turned 180 degrees, you have trouble.

It's never going to see significant RPM, so I wouldn't bother. Neither would the average shop.

Stick with OEM. They've lasted this long, haven't they? You have no need for the exotic stuff in a rebuild of this type.

Yes, but don't expect them to guarantee yours.

All the below listed precision tools you can get from Harbor Freight or Enco. No need for Starrett or Mitutoyo unless you plan on doing this for a living.

Outside micrometers from 1 - 4" minimum, bigger if you plan on overbore, capable of reading to 1/10,000"
Inside micrometer or telescoping gauges to measure the cylinders.
Dial caliper - 12"
Dial indicator with a clamp mount, and a magnetic base.
Good feeler gauges.
Ring groove cleaning tool.
Ring compressor.
Ridge reaming tool.
Harmonic balancer tool.
Valve spring compressor if you're going to break the heads down yourself.
Taps and a tap wrench for every hole size on the block/heads. You use them to clean out the holes. Remember that blind holes require a bottoming tap.

Handy to have: A handle to bolt to the front of the cam for installation. Summit sells them.

If you replace the cam, you have to replace the lifters, too. Used lifters on a new flat tappet cam will result in a dead cam before breakin is done. By the same token, swapping holes with used lifters going back on the original cam will do the same thing. Be very generous with the assembly lube here.

The most important tool to have - enough time, and something else to drive while doing this so you don't get in a hurry.

Good luck!

Builder

Understood.

OK. Got it. Mark the inside so as not to flip things around.

Got it.

Yup, that makes sense. OEM it is.

Ha! Wouldn't that be nice. It's a little more risky doing the work myself. But, I am convinced I can do as good, or better, a job.

Good list. I will start to source these. I thought I had one of everything from Harbor Freight.
Understood. The rebuild kits I am looking at include new lifters, but not push rods. I will make sure they go back in the same holes. Would a ratio increase be a good, mild improvement? Maybe roller-tip rockers?

Right! Luckily, I have other (running) vehicles. Time to work on this will be somewhat limited. How many hours do you anticipate a "normal" rebuild should actually take? Just guessing that 20-24 hours should be about right for my first rebuild. I will also learn to degree a cam and install a distributor in this process. The rest of the build (accessories) should be straightforward.

If going to a dome piston, how would you size the dome?

fleetmgr

I would plan on twice that much time, just because it's your first. This follows the rule of everything costing more than budgeted and taking more time than budgeted just like any other project.

I kind of get the sense that you're about to make a couple of typical newbie mistakes. In my experience, first timers have a tendency to do some things that aren't necessary, and to replace parts with things that are inappropriate to the build.

There is a great tendency to over-cam an engine like this because people get to looking in the catalog, and a whole lot of oohh! and aahh! happens. Too much cam and you'll have any engine that won't pull a hat off the top of your head, as the rest of the engine won't support it. You have to treat the VEHICLE as a system.

Were it me, I'd be looking at what was termed back in the day as an RV cam. What you're looking for is a bit of a power increase, but that increase needs to be somewhere in the available RPM range that makes it useful. Considering the application, that would be down low - from off idle up to say 3000 RPM or so. This will of necessity be a fairly mild grind. The upside is there's no need for stiffer valve springs, roller rockers, chrome moly pushrods and so on. You can degree the cam for the learning experience, but from a real perspective it's not necessary. It'll run just peachy if you stick the cam in and fire it up.

I wouldn't put a domed piston in at all. Flat topped or dished, depending on the heads. Figure the stock engine has 8.0:1 to 9.0:1 (tops) compression, based on the year and how they were doing things then, and the lower end may be lower than that. If you go over the upper mark, without the rest of the engine built to support it then you don't gain much but the priviledge of buying higher priced gas to prevent pinging. If you do make the engine such that it supports higher compression, a bigger cam etc. then you've got a truck that won't tow real well as it's making power at an RPM range that isn't useful in that application. Again, think of the vehicle as a system, and what the intended use is.

Was it my truck, I'd get rid of the 750 Holley in favor of a Q-Jet, or if you can find one an old Holley Spread Bore. You'll reap a benefit in mileage by doing this, and have the power there when you want it. Lots of people trash talk the Q-Jet, but if it didn't work GM wouldn't have put them on by the bazillions for 30 years. The trash talkers don't understand them, is all. They're more complex than the Holley, but they work great. Also, cast a critical eye on the intake. You don't mention which Edelbrock, but if it's one that makes power from 2500 RPM and up, it's not doing a lot for you. A better choice would be an Offy 360 degree type manifold. See this http://www.summitracing.com/parts/OFY-5883/

Hope this helps!

Builder

Ha-ha! Of course, I thought I was doing that already. In the engine builders challenge, two guys build an SBC in about 5 minutes. Of course, it only has to run for about 15 minutes (or something). It will only take me 40 hours? Ok. I can live with that.

Sage advice. Luckily, I've had the benefit of reading this board, and the PistonHeads board, for many years. I understand the cam mistake, and, in speaking with the rebuild kit suppliers, the "RV" cam is exactly what I am going for.

I probably used the wrong term for installing the cam. I thought "degreeing" was required any time a cam is installed. If it's a matter of bolting the cam into a stock position, that's much easier than what I imagined. I thought I was going to buy a degree wheel and go through that process. Glad to hear that won't be necessary, because that process is still somewhat of a mystery to me.

Agreed. After speaking with the kit suppliers, the engine probably has dish pistons and a CR fractionally more than 8:1. Anything other than a flat top, which brings the CR up to mid-8, and higher grade fuel is required for this engine. Using regular-unleaded will just lead to faster carbon build-up and possible pre-ignition from glowing carbon bits. Not good. I will go with flat top pistons. Increasing the rocker ratio has a similar effect as increasing the cam lobe size. I won't be doing that either. Maybe roller-tips, but I won't decide that until I see the condition of the block. It may have been rebuilt once already. If so, that will change the complexion of the rebuild.

Correction to my original post...I will edit. I had to run out and look, after reading your post. The carb is an Edelbrock 1406, which is listed as a replacement for the '61 to '86 Chevy K20. The numbers on the carb are 1406 2156. 600 CFM electric choke. They are available in 500, 600, 750, and 800. The intake is an Edelbrock Performer (not the air gap).

I've not started taking the engine out yet, so not sure of the head and block castings yet. I am anxious to get started and will post some pictures.

Thanks for your comments on this. I have always suspected the intake and manifold of being upgrades more appropriate for a lighter vehicle (maybe Chevy-II or Camaro back-in-the-day). I did these bolt-ons many years ago, before learning about the effects to the torque curve. The engine did run better at higher RPM, but the rest of the "system" wasn't built for higher RPM. I think the diff gears may have been changed, as well.

For future reference: Q-Jet is Quadra-Jet, which may have originally been manufactured by Rochester...no longer produced. Jet Performance refurbishes these and sells the stage-1 version for $435.

fleetmgr

Naw, degreeing this cam would be too much like work. That's for the really high dollar engines, where a degree here or there could lead to piston/valve contact. You won't have that problem with a mostly stock SBC, and a normal auto repair shop isn't going to do something like this...ever. In fact, I'd be willing to wager a good bit that if you asked 1000 regular mechanics what a degree wheel was, you'd get a blank stare from 75%. Also, to save a buck I'd rethink the roller or roller tip rockers. The stockers have worked fine for over 50 years on motors like this.

The smaller Edelbrock carb you have will work fine. A 750 Holley would be a bit much.

Builder

I can identify. Stock rockers look low-tech, but they work.

A friend pointed out this article at Classic Trucks. It shows a junk yard 350, albeit a descent runner, that they took to 418 horse 444 torque for $1,000 with a new cam and bolt-ons. Makes me wonder how long it would live, without a proper mod to the rotating bits.

The part that bugs me is that someone can buy a complete junk yard 350 for way cheaper than I can get the machine work done on the block. And, I would still have to buy the rebuild kit and provide the assembly labor. That comes to about $1,000 right there...not including heads (or head work).

The head work is another $500. I can buy a new GM long block Universal 350 for $1,500 with a warranty. Summit has one in stock 20 minutes from here. I love the idea of rebuilding my block, but it doesn't make any sense to do a build that will only match what I can buy off the shelf with a warranty for the same price (even if the warranty is difficult to collect on, should something go wrong).

Unfortunately, that is probably what I am going to do for this truck. The build will have to wait until this engine is run out and I can justify a fire-breather. I think the right thing to do is tear down the take-out, measure it and see what I've got. Maybe that's the block that becomes the fire-breather. I can buy some great forged parts and take my time along the way.

fleetmgr

That would depend on what was being done with it as that's not a lot of power for an SBC. In a DD with the occassional trip to the track, it would last a long time providing it was held to a sane RPM limit.

Now you know why most shops don't do rebuilds anymore, they'd rather go the short or long block route, too. They can't make any money on a stock rebuild.

Just a data point...your block should be a 4 bolt, so you have a good foundation. Couple that with some decent heads and you're all set. The stock rotating assembly will last all day at 6000 rpm or a bit over. If you want to spin it tighter than that, the insurance the forged parts provide is a good idea. You can make some serious power without exceeding 6000, though....just a thought.