OldeSkool

So I've heard people (and agreed with them) say they would like their f-body to ride and handle more like a european sports sedan and less like a hulking american pony car.

Obviously, the cars are very different. One has a solid axle in the back and a very large engine in the front (and thats just the tip of the iceberg considering roll centers, front suspension configuration, weight distribution, suspension travel etc.). The engineers had totally different objectives etc.

BUT in my mind, if you have two cars that have similar weight and if you were to equip them with similar spring rates, shock absorbers and swaybars, you could at least get closer.

Anyway, getting to my point, or rather my question. As I've gone about the process of selecting suspension components for my car, out of curiosity I've looked to see what makes up the suspension of these fine riding cars.

The most shocking thing I've found is that the typical BMW sedan has VERY soft front spring rates and VERY stiff rear spring rates... around 130 lbs/inch FRONT and 400 lbs/inch REAR.

This was surprising because I'm used to F-body springs being much stiffer in the front.

So what gives?

Thanks for indulging me in this theoretical discussion.

Black02SLPSS

iTrader: (5)

Isnt another big difference the shock valving in those cars? I remember someone on here saying something about it once, like they use a higher rebound rate rather than compression or something of that nature. But that does sound strange with the spring rates that you listed.

Elliott's94Z

iTrader: (12)

Not to be a ***, but whomever wants their F-body to drive/feel/handle like a BMW is driving the wrong car to begin with. It will never happen. In one corner you've got a Muscle car and in the other a Sports car...BIG difference.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Anyone who doesn't think you can get an f-body to be much more composed, taut and generally all around better, much more BMW like hasn't been paying attention.

Yes, they are different cars. No a solid axle is not an ideal suspension for any surface that is not smooth as glass. But we can do wonders with them and it mostly revolves around the dampers. The shocks matter, I've said it for years. I still say it, and I will always say it because you can have the best geometry, theory, tires, and all that jazz, but if the body can flop around, the tires don't maintain good contact with the road, the axle is upset by certain types of impacts things will never work right.

You can't compare the spring rates exactly, as the suspensions and spring locations are different. The front is most accurate because at least both are coil-over damper designs. But the BMW is a strut that mounts directly to the upright/spindle vs. the shock design we have that mounts more inboard which changes the motion ration and the leverage put on the spring and damper. The opposite is true in the rear which is why BMW's have much stiffer rates than we do, they have a lot more leverage.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I know cars--not just f-bodies. I often use knowledge gained from other cars to help me learn things.

Aside from F-bodies I've setup very successful cars ranging from Toyota MR2's to C6 Z06's and a new style Viper. Mustangs, Miata's, RX7's, STi's, Evo's, and things like that in between.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

That's a matter of opinion, and while I agree they'll never feel identical. But I make HUGE improvements in the F-cars--ask anyone who has actually done what I recomended vs. only parts of it.

I also drive BMW's all the time. In fact just last weekend I was in an E36 M3 at a driving school, and my best friend also owns an M3.

Elliott, no offense meant, but absolute statements like the one you made are rarely 100% true.

Elliott's94Z

iTrader: (12)

No offense taken Sam. It's just have driven several different types of BMW's I find it hard to believe a F-body could come close to the comfort/smoothness/drivability of one. If you can prove me otherwise great.

MeentSS02

iTrader: (11)

What are you trying to say Sam? Everything on the internet is true...I thought you already knew that

Bad Blue WS6

iTrader: (41)

ROWDYZ28

I'm sorry but just because this Sam Strano guy might be a suspension GOD doesn't mean every statement he says or posts up to be true. If you homo's think a fbody can be compared to a bmw then you all need a chin check.

Elliott's94Z

iTrader: (12)

Where did one take place?

ramairjohn2000

iTrader: (3)

he rowdy why dont you go race sam on a road course race and then see whos opinion you would believe.
i bet he could demonstrate his expertise to you.
as far as handling our fbodies are HIGHLY underrated as road course racers, i have done 3 years straight road course racing up at pocono and handled just fine with the vettes hondas bmmers and such, and as my instructor said 3 years straight he cannot get over how well it does with either him or me driving it. sfc, springs,shocks, strut tower bar, adj panhard bar best 5 inital investments you can start with and it willhandle, ride and NOT vibrate wonderfully. (ive done all these) the next step for me would be sam's sway bar packages, and i am pretty sure i could call it a day! have faith my friends we can steer our cars with 1 finger accuracy and repsonsiveness with the right setup and guidance, oh and yeah or cars cost half as much at any point as bmr to buy, repair, or mod, i will take that any day of the week thanks again sam!

ROWDYZ28

Maybe I just will..lol which wouldn't prove anything of what this threads about. This is a great way for a suspension dealer to get business,, post up something of the nature about him being able to get a fbody to drive like a bmw...give me a break. Not saying he can't dramatically improve our cars but please. Buy into it guys! Go spend all your money in hopes for a bmw driving fbody.

ramairjohn2000

iTrader: (3)

i think ur in an anti capitalism mode, yes sam is a sponsor and of course wants our business, but i dont think anyone can measure the support he gives us, this site, our cars, etc..........imagine if he drove a mustang for his races, egads, regardless
sam has pitched in with free advice on countless threads to help us all out and that my friend is a better measure of his passion and knowledge that he brings to the table.
as far as the bottom line of this thread feel like a bmw, i think a fully optioned ws6 with leather can get there about 80% (becasue of the seats, and no offense to the camaro owners but those stock seats suk) handle like a bmr or race with one on a road course, aside from the variability of the driver themselves i think we can easily matchthem, from my experience.
but please no more ripping on sam and the advice and input he gives.

Elliott's94Z

iTrader: (12)

I agree...no need to get hardcore on Sam. The guy does wonders for many different vehicles and from what I have read over the years he has always gave a helping hand.

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

Ok... I've also driven many BMW's and had a few different suspension setups on my Camaro. For the ones who said there's no way this car can feel like a BMW, I'm gonna guess they've never driven a strano/koni 4th gen tuned properly ( or possibly even any good aftermarket spring dampened correctly.. ). While the car isn't ever going to have the identical suspension setup, it sure as hell can be very similar to a BMW. I've often compared strano/koni to a BMW due to the fact that BMW is one of the rare car manufacturers that actually knows how to tune a suspension well. BMW does a very good job with their cars with good handling and ride quality. Some BMW's they have the handling part down but I would say the strano/koni combo has better ride quality than some beemers ( like some of the 18 inch wheel sport package cars with the crappy run-flat tires )

So you guys who absolutely don't think a properly setup Camaro can ride like a BMW will never be wrong, because that's your opinion and some people will think a Camaro on stock shocks and sportline springs rides like a Caddilac. Though have you rode in a well setup suspension before on our car?

Elliott's94Z

iTrader: (12)

This is good info. Makes me want to trade my set up in for some Strano's and Koni's to see just how close they compare. This might be something I do in the near future. It's hard to believe my Z28 could be anywhere close to a BMW...lol but hey, I've heard and seen crazier things.

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

Yeah you really gotta try it first. I'm a member of the BMWCCA and autox with the local events they have around here at Devens and I've tried a few so far. What springs do you have? Koni's are the key. If you have decent springs, you might be able to start with Koni's by themself.

Bad Blue WS6

iTrader: (41)

you, right here on this thread.

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

I don't see how this contributes anything useful to this topic

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

I am so tired of assumptions somehow becoming reality. Define what "driving like a BMW" means.

Here's what it means to me. Composed, taut, responsive, firm but not harsh. Are you going to make a Camaro that's 400 pounds heavier feel EXACTLY like a smaller, lighter car with a completely different suspension? No, but you can get damned close in a lot of ways. I can take my Camaro and run with pretty stock Z06's on the same type of tires. Is my car a Z06? No, does it drive like a Z06 in terms of feel? No. But just last weekend I ran runs in both my Camaro and a setup Super Stock autox Z06 and was .2 apart on time, and my car needs a new limited slip. Might well have been faster in my Camaro with a good LSD installed, but was testing out something else and testing demands on change at a time.

There are those that feel I'm evil because I make my living this way so I must be crooked. All I can say is you've obviously never spoken to me.