Suspension theory BMW vs F-body
And he didn't say it would be exactly like a BMW but it could get close in many ways. 
03-26-2009, 03:47 PM
#42
I can't agree completely, some yes but not entirely.
First, having owned both 3rd and 4th gens, the 4th gen is a much stiffer car to start with. It's also got a much better front suspension for camber curve and impact harshness. While the rear is the same on both cars, the front and the structure is not. And to be fair the 3rd gen was designed around 1980, the E36 M3 was designed in the late 80's/early 90's. Aside from the money spent there is a signifcant improvement in design of most things in that time period.
BMW's are in many ways better from the factory. They are a premium car with a price point very different from a Camaro/Firebird. Yes it will take some tuning and parts to improve an f-body.
Again it goes back to what I said before, and what Paul added about the feel a BMW gives. Are you going to make Jennifer Aniston look like Jessica Alba? No, but both are pretty hot. A Camaro is not a BMW. But if what you think of about BMW is composure, handling, taut control without beating you up, yes you can make an F-body a lot, lot more like that with the correct parts. In fact I do it all the time.
First, having owned both 3rd and 4th gens, the 4th gen is a much stiffer car to start with. It's also got a much better front suspension for camber curve and impact harshness. While the rear is the same on both cars, the front and the structure is not. And to be fair the 3rd gen was designed around 1980, the E36 M3 was designed in the late 80's/early 90's. Aside from the money spent there is a signifcant improvement in design of most things in that time period.
BMW's are in many ways better from the factory. They are a premium car with a price point very different from a Camaro/Firebird. Yes it will take some tuning and parts to improve an f-body.
Again it goes back to what I said before, and what Paul added about the feel a BMW gives. Are you going to make Jennifer Aniston look like Jessica Alba? No, but both are pretty hot. A Camaro is not a BMW. But if what you think of about BMW is composure, handling, taut control without beating you up, yes you can make an F-body a lot, lot more like that with the correct parts. In fact I do it all the time.
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Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
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2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
03-26-2009, 03:52 PM
#43
Anytime anyone wants to swing by for a ride in my Camaro, that can be arranged. Everytime someone does, they end up buying parts because seeing is believing. There will always be naysayers out there who will prefer to stand on their soapbox proclaiming how they are right without having any experience in the matter they are talking about. And anyone who disagrees must be a nut-hugger. Ingorance is bliss people. I'll let the results speak for themselves, be then comments from folks who has EXPERIENCE in the matter.
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Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
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www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
03-26-2009, 03:52 PM
#44
BOSS APPROVED!
I went from a 99 SS with bars, konis, and full road race suspension to a 09 M3. There is no comparison. The confidence and feel you get with the M3 just challenges you to go faster. But my Camaro did improve dramatically with the mods I did to it. Plus a lot of things have changed from a car that was developed in the late 90's to one developed a few years ago
03-26-2009, 03:56 PM
#45
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Though some of the 3 series BMWs had some serious issues like the subframe ripping problem. I remember being concerned about control arm bushings that commonly wore out when searching for an E46. It's on their official "Inspection #2" to check this... maybe #1 as well, I forget. BMW shock valving is top notch. So while their rigid, they certainly have some reliability issues. I would say more than the Camaro. That being said, I'm a huge BMW fan
03-26-2009, 03:58 PM
#46
Though some of the 3 series BMWs had some serious issues like the subframe ripping problem. I remember being concerned about control arm bushings that commonly wore out when searching for an E46. It's on their official "Inspection #2" to check this... maybe #1 as well, I forget. BMW shock valving is top notch. So while their rigid, they certainly have some reliability issues. I would say more than the Camaro. That being said, I'm a huge BMW fan
03-26-2009, 04:02 PM
#48
I've been a thirdgen owner for over 20 years (had 3 of them) and had a 1997 M3 for a while, so I want to throw in my 2 cents here.
Analysis:
BMW has several distinct advantages over a typical F-body:
3) Weight distribution - BMWs are all 50/50 or very close. GM just stuck a big honkin iron V8 on the front axle and let the distribution end up where it did. Of course you can take weight off the front end - but why was it there in the first place.
Analysis:
BMW has several distinct advantages over a typical F-body:
3) Weight distribution - BMWs are all 50/50 or very close. GM just stuck a big honkin iron V8 on the front axle and let the distribution end up where it did. Of course you can take weight off the front end - but why was it there in the first place.
03-26-2009, 06:27 PM
#52
I don't know if an '09 M3 is as fair a comparison as a '95 M3 simply because there have been no f-bodies over that time. An E36 is a contemporary of a 4th gen. A brand-new '09 is not--at all. I'm sure a 2010 Camaro will be a huge improvement over a 4th gen too, because time marches on. That's how it is.
__________________
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
03-26-2009, 06:32 PM
#53
I don't know if an '09 M3 is as fair a comparison as a '95 M3 simply because there have been no f-bodies over that time. An E36 is a contemporary of a 4th gen. A brand-new '09 is not--at all. I'm sure a 2010 Camaro will be a huge improvement over a 4th gen too, because time marches on. That's how it is.
03-26-2009, 09:02 PM
#54
Here's some interesting information, I know the guys over at hotchkis suspension and was talking with the cheif engineer... he has a 2000 SS camaro with everything hotchkis makes on it with koni shocks. John hotchkis drive a SICKKK new (not the NEW NEW just the new. know what I mean? maybe an 06ish ???) m3 thats all red and silver, with their kit on it, (i forget everything it adds) but anyways, I was talking with the two of them and i guess John likes the way the camaro handles better than his new M3. He just said its a lot more responsive, yea it took WAAAYYY more modifications to get to that level, but thats definitely a compliment to our f-bodies 
Last edited by KILLER-LS1; 03-26-2009 at 09:05 PM. Reason: oops
03-26-2009, 10:13 PM
#55
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Here's some interesting information, I know the guys over at hotchkis suspension and was talking with the cheif engineer... he has a 2000 SS camaro with everything hotchkis makes on it with koni shocks. John hotchkis drive a SICKKK new (not the NEW NEW just the new. know what I mean? maybe an 06ish ???) m3 thats all red and silver, with their kit on it, (i forget everything it adds) but anyways, I was talking with the two of them and i guess John likes the way the camaro handles better than his new M3. He just said its a lot more responsive, yea it took WAAAYYY more modifications to get to that level, but thats definitely a compliment to our f-bodies
03-27-2009, 08:50 AM
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I don't know if an '09 M3 is as fair a comparison as a '95 M3 simply because there have been no f-bodies over that time. An E36 is a contemporary of a 4th gen. A brand-new '09 is not--at all. I'm sure a 2010 Camaro will be a huge improvement over a 4th gen too, because time marches on. That's how it is.
03-27-2009, 02:30 PM
#57
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I can picture the 5th gen Camaro having a better factory suspension if it's coming from the G8 platform. But in autox, do you really think the Camaro SS is going to compete with the 4th gen or 3rd gen with that extra 500 lbs? I don't see how the Camaro SS will be competitive in FS against the lighter Mustangs and earlier gen fbodies.
03-28-2009, 11:25 AM
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I'm torn about the 5th gen cars - too big, too heavy, aero doesn't look all that good, and probably can't stick a big enough tire underneath it. But when you compare it to the Challenger and Mustang, it will be competitive head to head. I think it is embarassing that Detroit's pony cars get bigger and heavier, yet the Nissan 370Z is lighter than it's predecessor - obviously faster in all ways too. Why can't GM just build a 3300lb f-body with cutting edge aero, 425hp LS3, bulletproof brakes, good riding suspension, and a killer interior for $40K - I would buy one in a heartbeat. Instead I want to buy older F-bodies and mod them myself.
03-28-2009, 12:34 PM
#59
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True, but the average 4th gen car still has a similar front to rear weight bias even with a 150lb motor weight advantage. Swapping an LS1 into a thirdgen eliminates most of the front wheel weight bias, not to mention the power advantage over the TPI engines.
I'm torn about the 5th gen cars - too big, too heavy, aero doesn't look all that good, and probably can't stick a big enough tire underneath it. But when you compare it to the Challenger and Mustang, it will be competitive head to head. I think it is embarassing that Detroit's pony cars get bigger and heavier, yet the Nissan 370Z is lighter than it's predecessor - obviously faster in all ways too. Why can't GM just build a 3300lb f-body with cutting edge aero, 425hp LS3, bulletproof brakes, good riding suspension, and a killer interior for $40K - I would buy one in a heartbeat. Instead I want to buy older F-bodies and mod them myself.
I'm torn about the 5th gen cars - too big, too heavy, aero doesn't look all that good, and probably can't stick a big enough tire underneath it. But when you compare it to the Challenger and Mustang, it will be competitive head to head. I think it is embarassing that Detroit's pony cars get bigger and heavier, yet the Nissan 370Z is lighter than it's predecessor - obviously faster in all ways too. Why can't GM just build a 3300lb f-body with cutting edge aero, 425hp LS3, bulletproof brakes, good riding suspension, and a killer interior for $40K - I would buy one in a heartbeat. Instead I want to buy older F-bodies and mod them myself.
03-28-2009, 12:44 PM
#60
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Sam Strano F____n ROCKS! Our Fbody cars don't have to ride like BMWs to kick the $hizzit out of them... but Sam brings 'em damn close. Respect that, and the fact that Sam supports our crowd with his expertise. BMWs pack weak *** front springs because they don't pack the 400+hp LS engines that we have over our front wheels.
We all need to come to the painful realization that our Fbody cars are not the fine precision surgical cutting tools that BMWs are. lol They are heavy blunt melee weapons. They hit hard and leave marks. We might not win every time, but the other bastard's definately gonna know he's been in a fight. hahaha
We all need to come to the painful realization that our Fbody cars are not the fine precision surgical cutting tools that BMWs are. lol They are heavy blunt melee weapons. They hit hard and leave marks. We might not win every time, but the other bastard's definately gonna know he's been in a fight. hahaha
Last edited by 108dragon; 03-28-2009 at 12:45 PM. Reason: spelling error