Lets build a mid-engine Trans Am - need advice
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,814
Likes: 3
From: Hou. TX.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,814
Likes: 3
From: Hou. TX.
If your only going for around 500hp i would just buy a dropout LS4 FWD engine and put the G6 6-speed on it. The LS4 doesnt need any adapters and that would narrow the package a couple inches, also the LS4 accesories and crankshaft are 1.5" shorter. Also you mentioned doing a glass frontend and an aluminum floor would keep the weight well under 3000 lbs, probably closer to 2500. I dont think the G6 trans would have a problem with that, and i would say the input shaft would be the first thing to break. You can have a 300M hardened shaft made for <$500 and solve that problem. Finding a clutch to hold, im sure V8Archie has that covered. This also gives you the option of using the stock G6 cable shifters and shifter itself, saving you alot of fabrication.
My reasoning for this is im waiting to find a Monte SS with the LS4 that is wrecked in the rear, and picking up another LS4 front clip. Thus doing a twin engine AWD car using the complete FWD subframe and suspension on the rear. Ive measured it out on my T/A as well and it looks like it will fit behind the front seats with no wheelbase alteration.
Keep the ideas coming, but you should really do a rough measurement drawing of the FWD setup before you go crazy with transfer cases and 20 driveshafts. Like i said, if it works well you can always put another LS4 in the front and double the HP, i like crazy **** like this
Gary
My reasoning for this is im waiting to find a Monte SS with the LS4 that is wrecked in the rear, and picking up another LS4 front clip. Thus doing a twin engine AWD car using the complete FWD subframe and suspension on the rear. Ive measured it out on my T/A as well and it looks like it will fit behind the front seats with no wheelbase alteration.
Keep the ideas coming, but you should really do a rough measurement drawing of the FWD setup before you go crazy with transfer cases and 20 driveshafts. Like i said, if it works well you can always put another LS4 in the front and double the HP, i like crazy **** like this
Gary
I hate to say it, but I'm thinking of going with a different body style, building a space frame and wraping it in something very low and sleek like a kit car. I do like the mid engine design, but I need a way to license it. I wonder if I could use the cowl area of a firebird, build everything else myself and register it as a firebird? I'd use the LS1 engine along with a matching wiring harness, engine computer, A/C unit, dash (love those Pontiac dash's), intruments, steering column, front windshield and VIN tag. The computer should work, still pass emissions and be OBD II compliant.
Last edited by JasonWW; Dec 16, 2008 at 04:25 AM.
I've seen a couple of twin engined vehicles like you mentioned, but have no desire for one.
I hate to say it, but I'm thinking of going with a different body style, building a space frame and wraping it in something very low and sleek like a kit car. I do like the mid engine design, but I need a way to license it. I wonder if I could use the cowl area of a firebird, build everything else myself and register it as a firebird? I'd use the LS1 engine along with a matching wiring harness, engine computer, A/C unit, dash (love those Pontiac dash's), intruments, steering column, front windshield and VIN tag. The compter should work, still pass emissions and be OBD II compliant.
I hate to say it, but I'm thinking of going with a different body style, building a space frame and wraping it in something very low and sleek like a kit car. I do like the mid engine design, but I need a way to license it. I wonder if I could use the cowl area of a firebird, build everything else myself and register it as a firebird? I'd use the LS1 engine along with a matching wiring harness, engine computer, A/C unit, dash (love those Pontiac dash's), intruments, steering column, front windshield and VIN tag. The compter should work, still pass emissions and be OBD II compliant.
Slow down there Killer!!! I still think you could do it with the TA body. just gonna take some serious work. I may have missed it in the thread but what did it seem like you glossed over the transversed mounted setup from the 5.3L?
On The Tree
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From: North Ridgeville (suburbs of cleveland) Ohio
I've seen a couple of twin engined vehicles like you mentioned, but have no desire for one.
I hate to say it, but I'm thinking of going with a different body style, building a space frame and wraping it in something very low and sleek like a kit car. I do like the mid engine design, but I need a way to license it. I wonder if I could use the cowl area of a firebird, build everything else myself and register it as a firebird? I'd use the LS1 engine along with a matching wiring harness, engine computer, A/C unit, dash (love those Pontiac dash's), intruments, steering column, front windshield and VIN tag. The compter should work, still pass emissions and be OBD II compliant.
I hate to say it, but I'm thinking of going with a different body style, building a space frame and wraping it in something very low and sleek like a kit car. I do like the mid engine design, but I need a way to license it. I wonder if I could use the cowl area of a firebird, build everything else myself and register it as a firebird? I'd use the LS1 engine along with a matching wiring harness, engine computer, A/C unit, dash (love those Pontiac dash's), intruments, steering column, front windshield and VIN tag. The compter should work, still pass emissions and be OBD II compliant.
This seems like a better idea. More costly though. Self-Assembled Titles are issuable
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,814
Likes: 3
From: Hou. TX.
The transmission is the regular 4T65eHD 4 speed auto used behind the 3800 supercharged engines like the older Gran Prix GTP.
Another common transverse transmission is the Getrag built version 5 speed manual used in later Fieros. The new G6 6 speed manual has sort of replaced it, though.
Check out FastFieros dot com/projects/ . There's lots of info on different drivetrains there.
Last edited by JasonWW; Oct 27, 2008 at 10:38 PM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,814
Likes: 3
From: Hou. TX.
Keep the ideas coming, but you should really do a rough measurement drawing of the FWD setup before you go crazy with transfer cases and 20 driveshafts. Like i said, if it works well you can always put another LS4 in the front and double the HP, i like crazy **** like this
Gary
Gary
What if you took a late model 4 door FWD sedan, like a Honda Accord or whatever you like and can get cheap. Make it a 2 seater and drop a small block chevy in the back along with one of these transverse transmissions. Make it carbed for cost and simplicity. Throw some flares on the fenders and some fat tires on it. There's your dual engine setup. Keep the front engine for ballast and for the stock computer to read, that way you can pass emmisions. May as well ditch the front axles and trans to save weight as well.
Think about it, a LATE model car with an old school SBC and rear wheel drive! As long as the car is light, in order to maintain a good power to weight ratio, your good to go.
TECH Regular
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 425
Likes: 1
From: Scottsdale, Arizona
Well my idea was bad according to you. Your options are limited by your budget. There are not that many options you can chose from for what you are trying to achieve.
I agree, you have to think outside of the box once in a while but never say that's a bad idea unless you have tried it. Since it sounds like you haven't planned this out very well some of us have taken the time to offer suggestions. If you don't like them that's ok, just don't go off and say things like that. I'm not sure how old you are, but it sounds like you don't have a lot of experience under your belt.
In closing, just remember not everyone is going to make you happy. But it's the one who takes the time and offers you ideas you should be apreciative for.
I agree that your idea is cool, if your homework is done right. I enjoy watching other think outside the box, that's how everything is done in this world. Just don't bite the hand that feeds you.
Good luck with your project.
I agree, you have to think outside of the box once in a while but never say that's a bad idea unless you have tried it. Since it sounds like you haven't planned this out very well some of us have taken the time to offer suggestions. If you don't like them that's ok, just don't go off and say things like that. I'm not sure how old you are, but it sounds like you don't have a lot of experience under your belt.
In closing, just remember not everyone is going to make you happy. But it's the one who takes the time and offers you ideas you should be apreciative for.
I agree that your idea is cool, if your homework is done right. I enjoy watching other think outside the box, that's how everything is done in this world. Just don't bite the hand that feeds you.
Good luck with your project.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,814
Likes: 3
From: Hou. TX.
Well my idea was bad according to you. Your options are limited by your budget. There are not that many options you can chose from for what you are trying to achieve.
I agree, you have to think outside of the box once in a while but never say that's a bad idea unless you have tried it. Since it sounds like you haven't planned this out very well some of us have taken the time to offer suggestions. If you don't like them that's ok, just don't go off and say things like that. I'm not sure how old you are, but it sounds like you don't have a lot of experience under your belt.
In closing, just remember not everyone is going to make you happy. But it's the one who takes the time and offers you ideas you should be apreciative for.
I agree that your idea is cool, if your homework is done right. I enjoy watching other think outside the box, that's how everything is done in this world. Just don't bite the hand that feeds you.
Good luck with your project.
I agree, you have to think outside of the box once in a while but never say that's a bad idea unless you have tried it. Since it sounds like you haven't planned this out very well some of us have taken the time to offer suggestions. If you don't like them that's ok, just don't go off and say things like that. I'm not sure how old you are, but it sounds like you don't have a lot of experience under your belt.
In closing, just remember not everyone is going to make you happy. But it's the one who takes the time and offers you ideas you should be apreciative for.
I agree that your idea is cool, if your homework is done right. I enjoy watching other think outside the box, that's how everything is done in this world. Just don't bite the hand that feeds you.
Good luck with your project.
Don't take what I said personally. I want this to be a low budget build. There are guys building sbc fieros for $4k total including the car. To me $5k for a Porsche G50 trans is pretty steep. So you can see that $12k is just way too much. Then consider it's a 3 speed. That means no overdrive so it will rev high on the freeway. That's just unacceptable.
So that particular transmission just does not suit this build in any way, shape or form. No offense meant. Sorry.
Last edited by JasonWW; Oct 28, 2008 at 09:00 PM.
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Verdad Gallardo Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,814
Likes: 3
From: Hou. TX.
Does anyone know the model of manual transmission used on the C5 and 6? I know it's a T56, but it looks like the front and rear housings are different. Maybe the output shaft is longer as well?
I want to at least learn more about it before I give up on it. By using the torque tube it will free up exhaust room and floor space which is handy.
I want to at least learn more about it before I give up on it. By using the torque tube it will free up exhaust room and floor space which is handy.
Last edited by JasonWW; Nov 6, 2008 at 02:23 AM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,814
Likes: 3
From: Hou. TX.
I thought we already kicked you out.
Didn't I already tell you to unsubscribe? Do it already. You and your insults are not welcome here.
Didn't I already tell you to unsubscribe? Do it already. You and your insults are not welcome here.
Last edited by JasonWW; Nov 6, 2008 at 05:35 AM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,814
Likes: 3
From: Hou. TX.
Try? What am I trying? 
Anyway, if anyone knows if the regular T56 can be easily converted to the C5 style, let me know. This would improve weight distribution and give me the room I need for the exhaust. Aside from that, there's no other advantages I can see. I guess cost will be the determining factor.
Right now I've got the car pretty low for drivable (meaning 2" compression travel front and rear). It looks pretty mean, but I plan to go lower still.
Project Super Low is now in effect.
Anyway, if anyone knows if the regular T56 can be easily converted to the C5 style, let me know. This would improve weight distribution and give me the room I need for the exhaust. Aside from that, there's no other advantages I can see. I guess cost will be the determining factor.
Right now I've got the car pretty low for drivable (meaning 2" compression travel front and rear). It looks pretty mean, but I plan to go lower still.
Project Super Low is now in effect.
I believe the vette piece has significant internal differences such as triple synchros. If it could be converted over you would be replacing almost everything but the middle case.
I'm confused... Again.
If you're putting the motor in the rear how are you using a torque tube and how does this impact exhaust routing?
I'm confused... Again.
If you're putting the motor in the rear how are you using a torque tube and how does this impact exhaust routing?
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,814
Likes: 3
From: Hou. TX.
I may build a whole other mid engined vehicle later on.
Last edited by JasonWW; Nov 7, 2008 at 12:21 AM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,814
Likes: 3
From: Hou. TX.
What do you keep going on about?
Overall, this thread was a success. I think we covered just about every option there is to do a mid engine. I certainly learned a lot.
If you want to build a mid engine f-body without altering the wheelbase, it can be done. You just have to mount the engine sideways and use the fiero Getrag 5 speed or a G6 6 speed. I doubt the automatics would hold up to the cars power and weight.
I've seen that the C5 and C6 autos are about half the price of the manuals. I may be able to score a auto trans and rear combo pretty cheap. I'll have to wait and see.
For now I'm going to focus on the main part of this project, getting the car "Super Low".
Overall, this thread was a success. I think we covered just about every option there is to do a mid engine. I certainly learned a lot.
If you want to build a mid engine f-body without altering the wheelbase, it can be done. You just have to mount the engine sideways and use the fiero Getrag 5 speed or a G6 6 speed. I doubt the automatics would hold up to the cars power and weight.
I've seen that the C5 and C6 autos are about half the price of the manuals. I may be able to score a auto trans and rear combo pretty cheap. I'll have to wait and see.
For now I'm going to focus on the main part of this project, getting the car "Super Low".
Last edited by JasonWW; Nov 7, 2008 at 12:48 AM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,814
Likes: 3
From: Hou. TX.
Can anyone explain the logic of the torque tube? Obviously you don't have to have it.
It actually seems too simple to take any transmission you want and move it to the back and directly couple it to an IRS differential.
For instance, I could pick up a cheap 700R4 and mount it in the back coupled to a Ford 8.8 diff. Or what about a 4L60E? Since I have a 6 speed car I assume the ECM doesn't have the circuitry to determine the shift points. So just convert the shifting to manual using relays and wire up some paddle shifters for up and down. Something like that.
You need to enclose both the back of the engine as well as the front of the trans around the converter, but that doesn't seem too hard. I'm simplifying of course.
Or how about I buy a manual vette torque tube and take off the bellhousing on my T56 trans. Mate them up with an adapter and couple the trans output to the 8.8 diff. I could even make an adapter to bolt the diff to the trans. Then it would be a solid piece front to rear like the vette, only with a stronger rear gear. The only semi difficult part about this conversion would be building the shift linkage.
It actually seems too simple to take any transmission you want and move it to the back and directly couple it to an IRS differential.
For instance, I could pick up a cheap 700R4 and mount it in the back coupled to a Ford 8.8 diff. Or what about a 4L60E? Since I have a 6 speed car I assume the ECM doesn't have the circuitry to determine the shift points. So just convert the shifting to manual using relays and wire up some paddle shifters for up and down. Something like that.
You need to enclose both the back of the engine as well as the front of the trans around the converter, but that doesn't seem too hard. I'm simplifying of course.
Or how about I buy a manual vette torque tube and take off the bellhousing on my T56 trans. Mate them up with an adapter and couple the trans output to the 8.8 diff. I could even make an adapter to bolt the diff to the trans. Then it would be a solid piece front to rear like the vette, only with a stronger rear gear. The only semi difficult part about this conversion would be building the shift linkage.
Last edited by JasonWW; Nov 7, 2008 at 07:13 AM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,814
Likes: 3
From: Hou. TX.
I know it's not a mid engine design, more of a compromise, but if I could mount the trans in the rear without having to buy a lot of expensive vette parts, I just might do it.
I think there is enough room from the seats to the rear axle centerline to do it. Like so:
With the C5, the engineers didn't have as much room behind the seats so they had to shorten the whole trans/rearend package. I think that's why they made the new style rear diffs the way they did. I'm guessing they saved 7"-10"s? I think I should have plenty of room.
All I would really need to buy is a torque tube and all the crap that goes inside it. The hydraulic throw out bearing looks the same as the f-body unit. I also have a cool way to connect the trans and the diff. Since both the output shaft on the trans and the pinion shaft in the diff are splined, all Id need to do is make a slip adaptor with female splines on each side. Simple enough and saves a few inches over using yokes and a single universal joint.
I need to know more about the tube insides and how they mate up. Does anyone have any links or pictures?
I think there is enough room from the seats to the rear axle centerline to do it. Like so:
With the C5, the engineers didn't have as much room behind the seats so they had to shorten the whole trans/rearend package. I think that's why they made the new style rear diffs the way they did. I'm guessing they saved 7"-10"s? I think I should have plenty of room.
All I would really need to buy is a torque tube and all the crap that goes inside it. The hydraulic throw out bearing looks the same as the f-body unit. I also have a cool way to connect the trans and the diff. Since both the output shaft on the trans and the pinion shaft in the diff are splined, all Id need to do is make a slip adaptor with female splines on each side. Simple enough and saves a few inches over using yokes and a single universal joint.
I need to know more about the tube insides and how they mate up. Does anyone have any links or pictures?
Last edited by JasonWW; Nov 7, 2008 at 07:31 AM.
