magnesium block
07-09-2009, 10:32 PM
#1
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: toronto ontario canada
Posts: 2,047
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
magnesium block i just want to know what you guys think about having a magnesium engine block ?
supposed to be lighter then a aluminum block, and i think allot of production cars will start poping up with magnesium blocks to cave weight/have better fuel economy.
some racing cars have magnesium blocks but from what i have been told is that magnesium does not like high temp's too much.
supposed to be lighter then a aluminum block, and i think allot of production cars will start poping up with magnesium blocks to cave weight/have better fuel economy.
some racing cars have magnesium blocks but from what i have been told is that magnesium does not like high temp's too much.
07-09-2009, 11:03 PM
#3
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: toronto ontario canada
Posts: 2,047
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
so you are saying that racing motors are made out of fireworks ?
it is probably not all magnesium, it is a magnesium alloy, just like the aluminum block are not all aluminum, it is an alloy. meaning a mixture of some other stuff in there
it is probably not all magnesium, it is a magnesium alloy, just like the aluminum block are not all aluminum, it is an alloy. meaning a mixture of some other stuff in there
07-10-2009, 01:58 AM
#4
i think BMW are currently using Mag Ally blocks on the 3.0ltr 6 cylinder engines.
It is MUCH lighter than ally! however you have to keep it painted or it corrodes.
i think there are other areas to look into first before going down this route. Chassis design and material choices in the chassis can make a massive difference to weight. the easiest way to reduce weight is take all the creature cumforts out the car! thats what lotus have done in the Elise and what the Caterham/Lotus7 guys have done for years!
Also making cars smaller helps alot! you use less material that way
Chris.
It is MUCH lighter than ally! however you have to keep it painted or it corrodes.
i think there are other areas to look into first before going down this route. Chassis design and material choices in the chassis can make a massive difference to weight. the easiest way to reduce weight is take all the creature cumforts out the car! thats what lotus have done in the Elise and what the Caterham/Lotus7 guys have done for years!
Also making cars smaller helps alot! you use less material that way
Chris.
07-10-2009, 10:39 AM
#6
Moderator
iTrader: (11)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: East Central Florida
Posts: 12,604
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
6 Posts
Certainly not a commodity feedstock like aluminum is,
and for a marginal weight improvement you have to
re-engineer it all for the different ductility, expansion,
and so on. Plus the aluminum's native oxide which
protects the base material (heads) from being consumed,
is not matched by chalky magnesium oxide.
If you're trying to save 10 pounds on an engine block,
hell, go beryllium. So what if its dust is big time toxic
and it's similarly chemically reactive. If it only has to
last 7 seconds, and you get it free for putting a
sponsor sticker on the vehicle, who cares?
On the other hand, your Joe Neglect consumer is
going to trash anything exotic resulting in major
giveback problems. Hell, people are too cheap to
put anything in the radiator that doesn't come out
the garden hose, from the look of some motors
I've seen. So don't expect this stuff to hit the
low end of the mass market anytime soon.
and for a marginal weight improvement you have to
re-engineer it all for the different ductility, expansion,
and so on. Plus the aluminum's native oxide which
protects the base material (heads) from being consumed,
is not matched by chalky magnesium oxide.
If you're trying to save 10 pounds on an engine block,
hell, go beryllium. So what if its dust is big time toxic
and it's similarly chemically reactive. If it only has to
last 7 seconds, and you get it free for putting a
sponsor sticker on the vehicle, who cares?
On the other hand, your Joe Neglect consumer is
going to trash anything exotic resulting in major
giveback problems. Hell, people are too cheap to
put anything in the radiator that doesn't come out
the garden hose, from the look of some motors
I've seen. So don't expect this stuff to hit the
low end of the mass market anytime soon.
07-10-2009, 02:48 PM
#7
TECH Regular
My experience with Magnesium blocks stems from a v12 engine we worked on at CJ Batten's back in the 90's. The block moved HORRIBLY when you measured at room temperature then at 200 degrees of water temperature. Round holes (cylinders and mains) weren't even close to round any more. Not good for blowby, cylinder sleeve retension, or bearing life.
Trending Topics
07-10-2009, 02:55 PM
#8
Caddywack made some Mag intakes on their Northstars but stopped. Probably due to the thermal expansion and price issues mentioned earlier.
I have one. It has been sitting in a garage and never used. It is very corroded.
Considering that mag is used as a sacrificial anode I would say that your engine will be more scared of corroding away then from wearing out the bearings or strain from its own operation.
I have one. It has been sitting in a garage and never used. It is very corroded.
Considering that mag is used as a sacrificial anode I would say that your engine will be more scared of corroding away then from wearing out the bearings or strain from its own operation.
07-10-2009, 09:05 PM
#10
TECH Resident
iTrader: (48)
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 963
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
im pretty sure that a bunch of volkswagons were made with magnesium blocks, and they had some issues with engine fires. well at least my friends at the fire dept have issues with the vw engine fires, because water cant put out magnesium fires...
07-11-2009, 10:36 AM
#12
I am a BMW mechanic and at school we saw a demo of a guy trying to light a mag block on fire and he could not do it. It would have to be ground into dust or shavings to easily ignite is my understanding. I have also seen a V12 with mag intake manifolds that caught on fire and the intakes were only smoke damaged so I think it is more stable than people give it credit for.
The main problem with magnesium is it is highly corrosive. All the BMW mag blocks use only aluminum bolts on the engine (except head bolts) and you must keep the threads free of any oil or coolant.
The main problem with magnesium is it is highly corrosive. All the BMW mag blocks use only aluminum bolts on the engine (except head bolts) and you must keep the threads free of any oil or coolant.
07-11-2009, 03:09 PM
#14
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: toronto ontario canada
Posts: 2,047
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
I am a BMW mechanic and at school we saw a demo of a guy trying to light a mag block on fire and he could not do it. It would have to be ground into dust or shavings to easily ignite is my understanding. I have also seen a V12 with mag intake manifolds that caught on fire and the intakes were only smoke damaged so I think it is more stable than people give it credit for.
The main problem with magnesium is it is highly corrosive. All the BMW mag blocks use only aluminum bolts on the engine (except head bolts) and you must keep the threads free of any oil or coolant.
The main problem with magnesium is it is highly corrosive. All the BMW mag blocks use only aluminum bolts on the engine (except head bolts) and you must keep the threads free of any oil or coolant.
07-12-2009, 02:59 PM
#15
Its has very poor corrosive resistance, it is also "brittle" I am sure the forming process is alot more difficult. I saw pictures of some brand new aircraft parts that got salt water on them from an emergency water landing. WOW, it was crazy how quickly they corroded to being worthless.
07-12-2009, 08:20 PM
#16
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: toronto ontario canada
Posts: 2,047
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
ok, aperantly the magnesium alloy that was designed to be used for engine blocks is called AM-SC1 and should withstand 150-200°C. but can't really find any info on how this alloy is against corrosion.
07-13-2009, 12:16 AM
#18
Staging Lane
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Houston
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just kind of FYI, Aircraft rims are largely made of magnesium and those things go trough some hell of abuse. Next time you touch down on a runway just remember, your tires are flammable, lol.
07-13-2009, 12:21 AM
#19
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: toronto ontario canada
Posts: 2,047
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
i have never seen a race motor made out of titanium, but plenty with a magnesium alloy.
i also think aluminum is less dense then titanium so titanium should weigh more.
i also think aluminum is less dense then titanium so titanium should weigh more.
07-13-2009, 12:28 AM
#20
Staging Lane
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Houston
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Titanium doesnt really get rid of heat like aluminum does if i recall correctly. The big bonus to titanium is its lighter than steel and maintains its strength at higher temperatures. But doesn't the cylinder sleeves take the brunt of the combustion anyway? So then why do titanium at all?