C5R Experts only...tough questions.
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C5R Experts only...tough questions. Before this incredible piece of GM racing history slips off into oblivion there are a few things I'd like to know. If I can't get the answers here, I'll give up. I'm talking about the 427 and not the earlier smaller version.
First, when was the first engine (working prototype?) built? I know Schwartz (?spelling) built the blocks and even the C5R heads but they did not (I asked them) finish the heads. Who did? Katech says it's not them. Who prepared the heads for final use?
The piston? When and who built and/or designed the first ones? Diamond? JE? Maybe Schwartz again?? And is there a difference in the C5R 427 piston and any other GM 4.125" piston? In other words would the piston you would put in a sleeved LSx engine be the same or would the C5R not clear the reluctor ring or whatever? How much difference between the C5R piston and the LS7?
Who was the first piston builder to make them available and when? I think this was in '01 but not sure. Again, is there anything unique to the C5R piston that would make it applicable to only the C5R or is it still an off the shelf piece.
Any other historical facts of links would be appreciated. thanks
First, when was the first engine (working prototype?) built? I know Schwartz (?spelling) built the blocks and even the C5R heads but they did not (I asked them) finish the heads. Who did? Katech says it's not them. Who prepared the heads for final use?
The piston? When and who built and/or designed the first ones? Diamond? JE? Maybe Schwartz again?? And is there a difference in the C5R 427 piston and any other GM 4.125" piston? In other words would the piston you would put in a sleeved LSx engine be the same or would the C5R not clear the reluctor ring or whatever? How much difference between the C5R piston and the LS7?
Who was the first piston builder to make them available and when? I think this was in '01 but not sure. Again, is there anything unique to the C5R piston that would make it applicable to only the C5R or is it still an off the shelf piece.
Any other historical facts of links would be appreciated. thanks
Before this incredible piece of GM racing history slips off into oblivion there are a few things I'd like to know. If I can't get the answers here, I'll give up. I'm talking about the 427 and not the earlier smaller version.
First, when was the first engine (working prototype?) built? I know Schwartz (?spelling) built the blocks and even the C5R heads but they did not (I asked them) finish the heads. Who did? Katech says it's not them. Who prepared the heads for final use?Well, define finish? They were all flow tested and assembled by Katech, but they weren't CNC'd there. I can remember the CNC place now.
The piston? GM design, built by Mahle When and who built and/or designed the first ones? Diamond? JE? Maybe Schwartz again?? And is there a difference in the C5R 427 piston and any other GM 4.125" piston?Completely different compression heights. The C5-R used other than 4" strokes and longer rods. In other words would the piston you would put in a sleeved LSx engine be the same or would the C5R not clear the reluctor ring or whatever?It probably would, but they didn't have internal reluctors, so it would have to be checked. How much difference between the C5R piston and the LS7?That's like comparing a LS1 piston to a LS7
Who was the first piston builder to make them available and when? I think this was in '01 but not sure. Again, is there anything unique to the C5R piston that would make it applicable to only the C5R or is it still an off the shelf piece. Again, Mahle.
Any other historical facts of links would be appreciated. thanks
I guess the guys over at Katech would be able to fill you in on all the old specs, or at least they should be able to if they have time. I know a limited amount from my stay at Katech. I tried to pay attention to all of the race programs, but they were pretty tight lipped with the C5-R.
First, when was the first engine (working prototype?) built? I know Schwartz (?spelling) built the blocks and even the C5R heads but they did not (I asked them) finish the heads. Who did? Katech says it's not them. Who prepared the heads for final use?Well, define finish? They were all flow tested and assembled by Katech, but they weren't CNC'd there. I can remember the CNC place now.
The piston? GM design, built by Mahle When and who built and/or designed the first ones? Diamond? JE? Maybe Schwartz again?? And is there a difference in the C5R 427 piston and any other GM 4.125" piston?Completely different compression heights. The C5-R used other than 4" strokes and longer rods. In other words would the piston you would put in a sleeved LSx engine be the same or would the C5R not clear the reluctor ring or whatever?It probably would, but they didn't have internal reluctors, so it would have to be checked. How much difference between the C5R piston and the LS7?That's like comparing a LS1 piston to a LS7
Who was the first piston builder to make them available and when? I think this was in '01 but not sure. Again, is there anything unique to the C5R piston that would make it applicable to only the C5R or is it still an off the shelf piece. Again, Mahle.
Any other historical facts of links would be appreciated. thanks
I guess the guys over at Katech would be able to fill you in on all the old specs, or at least they should be able to if they have time. I know a limited amount from my stay at Katech. I tried to pay attention to all of the race programs, but they were pretty tight lipped with the C5-R.
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I'm not sure that Katech knows the early history of all C5R parts.
By finish I mean, it is my understanding that Schwartz Machine did a lot of preparation to finish the CC to 30 or 38cc or whatever. I don't think this was anything other than a rough cut. In other words when, say, a SCPC got the head it was finished to the extent that it was ready for final porting and polishing. The engine builder would have the combustion chambers "finished" to his size and specs.
In fact, when I asked Katech this question they referred me to Schwartz who said they believed the heads were in some cases sent to a shop somewhere in Michigan or the Detroit area. And some were sent rough CND'd. Not sure what all that means other than Schwartz nor Katech did the final P&P.
It makes sense that Mahle would design the pistons but an apparently confused source told me Diamond built the first C5R pistons. I have no clue what he meant unless he confused the two companies.
I have seen on the Internet where there were some 427 C5Rs running in '01. Just wondering who and when built, tested or ran these engines and when they hit the street. I guess when they hit the street is what I would really like to know.
Thanks for your help!
By finish I mean, it is my understanding that Schwartz Machine did a lot of preparation to finish the CC to 30 or 38cc or whatever. I don't think this was anything other than a rough cut. In other words when, say, a SCPC got the head it was finished to the extent that it was ready for final porting and polishing. The engine builder would have the combustion chambers "finished" to his size and specs.
In fact, when I asked Katech this question they referred me to Schwartz who said they believed the heads were in some cases sent to a shop somewhere in Michigan or the Detroit area. And some were sent rough CND'd. Not sure what all that means other than Schwartz nor Katech did the final P&P.
It makes sense that Mahle would design the pistons but an apparently confused source told me Diamond built the first C5R pistons. I have no clue what he meant unless he confused the two companies.
I have seen on the Internet where there were some 427 C5Rs running in '01. Just wondering who and when built, tested or ran these engines and when they hit the street. I guess when they hit the street is what I would really like to know.
Thanks for your help!
Just call the sales or tech line and have me paged. It is physically impossible for me to answer tech calls AND keep up with my voice mailbox. I have it purposely disabled for that reason.
Thanks,
Shane
Thanks,
Shane
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On The Tree
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Lingenfelter built a 427 c-5r motor with cath. heads in late 2000 into early 2001. I can't remeber the exact publication but Chevy High Performance might be it not swearing to it. That motor went into a red sonoma pickup and was turbocharged. That is my earliest account in the street world of the 427 c-5r bottomed end. Then that caused the wave of 427 resleeves, Agostino,MTI etc. You have started other treads on this might I ask why you want this info? Lingenfelter/Lunati were some of the first to pioneer the 4.00 stroke cranks into the LS1, that goes back to 1998, seems like yesterday.
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Katech was just a satellite for GM. GM did most, if not all of the research, and Katech did the assembley.
I have some info from C5R stuff in 1998/1999, but its not 100% verified. This was over 10 years ago.
GM also experimented with different strokes and different bores. They also used Nikasil liners at some point, its unknown to ME when they changed. I believe it was mid 2000s so they could get the bore they needed, and they reduced the stroke to 3.8/3.85.
In 2005/2006? I believe they changed cylinder head configurations. The info on these heads is not much. Its kept pretty hush hush. There is a water pipe UNDER the Intake manifold/intake ports. Its very peculiar in design, and NOTHING was allowed to leak to us, as we developed partially C5R 2nd gen heads for use in GT2, but they were never ran.
Also, in 2006/2007? Perhaps earlier? They changed to direct injection. This allowed a 10% increase in power, and was legal in FIA/ACO homoligations. It was employed this year in GT2, but was quickly deemed illegal.
If you are serious about information, I can see what I can dig up. I spent countless hours researching this information for our race program, so I know a little more than the average guy.
Our corvette GT2 car, with 2 GT1 cars at sebring 08.
Take care
Louis
I have some info from C5R stuff in 1998/1999, but its not 100% verified. This was over 10 years ago.
GM also experimented with different strokes and different bores. They also used Nikasil liners at some point, its unknown to ME when they changed. I believe it was mid 2000s so they could get the bore they needed, and they reduced the stroke to 3.8/3.85.
In 2005/2006? I believe they changed cylinder head configurations. The info on these heads is not much. Its kept pretty hush hush. There is a water pipe UNDER the Intake manifold/intake ports. Its very peculiar in design, and NOTHING was allowed to leak to us, as we developed partially C5R 2nd gen heads for use in GT2, but they were never ran.
Also, in 2006/2007? Perhaps earlier? They changed to direct injection. This allowed a 10% increase in power, and was legal in FIA/ACO homoligations. It was employed this year in GT2, but was quickly deemed illegal.
If you are serious about information, I can see what I can dig up. I spent countless hours researching this information for our race program, so I know a little more than the average guy.
Our corvette GT2 car, with 2 GT1 cars at sebring 08.
Take care
Louis
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Louis - that's a beautiful car and I would guess a valuable collectors item if you still have it one piece.
My earliest memory of C5R blocks running on the streets were GMMG ZL1s and in fact someone here posted a video of the car, a yellow car owned by a guy named Barnhart (?) in 2002 I think. But, I've got to think the really big tuners and people like LPE and Katech had some street C5Rs out before that. Or for that matter probably some LS1.tech sponsors had them on the street by 2001. As a matter of fact I bought a pair of used C5R heads right here on LS1.tech in July or so 2002. These were used Katech heads, according to the guy I bought them from, and were set up for a solid roller.
I'm not positive on this one but isn't GM bringing the C5R block back? Seems like SDPC has them.
My earliest memory of C5R blocks running on the streets were GMMG ZL1s and in fact someone here posted a video of the car, a yellow car owned by a guy named Barnhart (?) in 2002 I think. But, I've got to think the really big tuners and people like LPE and Katech had some street C5Rs out before that. Or for that matter probably some LS1.tech sponsors had them on the street by 2001. As a matter of fact I bought a pair of used C5R heads right here on LS1.tech in July or so 2002. These were used Katech heads, according to the guy I bought them from, and were set up for a solid roller.
I'm not positive on this one but isn't GM bringing the C5R block back? Seems like SDPC has them.
Louis - that's a beautiful car and I would guess a valuable collectors item if you still have it one piece.
My earliest memory of C5R blocks running on the streets were GMMG ZL1s and in fact someone here posted a video of the car, a yellow car owned by a guy named Barnhart (?) in 2002 I think. But, I've got to think the really big tuners and people like LPE and Katech had some street C5Rs out before that. Or for that matter probably some LS1.tech sponsors had them on the street by 2001. As a matter of fact I bought a pair of used C5R heads right here on LS1.tech in July or so 2002. These were used Katech heads, according to the guy I bought them from, and were set up for a solid roller.
I'm not positive on this one but isn't GM bringing the C5R block back? Seems like SDPC has them.
My earliest memory of C5R blocks running on the streets were GMMG ZL1s and in fact someone here posted a video of the car, a yellow car owned by a guy named Barnhart (?) in 2002 I think. But, I've got to think the really big tuners and people like LPE and Katech had some street C5Rs out before that. Or for that matter probably some LS1.tech sponsors had them on the street by 2001. As a matter of fact I bought a pair of used C5R heads right here on LS1.tech in July or so 2002. These were used Katech heads, according to the guy I bought them from, and were set up for a solid roller.
I'm not positive on this one but isn't GM bringing the C5R block back? Seems like SDPC has them.
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Were the only rockers available for the C5R heads Jessel? And were all C5R heads set up for solid rollers? Seems like Comp made C5R valve trains too....but, maybe not. Anybody know how many C5R blocks were made?
They used birch on the crates.
My 388 uses ETP 265 heads.
My latest 2000+hp 427 uses C5R heads and block converted to 6 bolt, welded deck, half hard blok fill, 1/2" head studs, roller cam bearings. It is a very trick piece.
My 388 uses ETP 265 heads.
My latest 2000+hp 427 uses C5R heads and block converted to 6 bolt, welded deck, half hard blok fill, 1/2" head studs, roller cam bearings. It is a very trick piece.
Single 106mm turbo.
I can't remember which castings they are, I believe 090's. They are at VA Speed right now getting the magic treatment.
I have a build thread in the Forced Induction section that has a rundown of the build.
I can't remember which castings they are, I believe 090's. They are at VA Speed right now getting the magic treatment.
I have a build thread in the Forced Induction section that has a rundown of the build.