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Front tire width
05-11-2011, 02:35 PM
#21
Same contact patch AREA, yes. The skinnies will overheat quickly though. Not much surface area to dissipate heat. There's more to it than simply bigger is better, and THAT is the part most people seem to skip over so easily. Go too big and you'll never get them up to temp. Compound also makes a huge difference. Sidewall height, slip angles (which are also relative to tread width), etc. Even if, surface area has nothing to do with friction.
05-11-2011, 08:16 PM
#23
TECH Senior Member
Consider two 26" tall tires (i.e. same height), one has 100mm wide tread, the other has 300mm wide tread... there is no way that the contact patch area is the same.
The force on each of those tires will be the same, but the spread of the force will be different (force divided by area), the skinny tire will sink in sand, the fat tire will float on sand.
Last edited by joecar; 05-11-2011 at 08:33 PM.
05-11-2011, 08:58 PM
#24
You are contradicting your statements... if tire size (width and height) determine the shape of the contact patch, how can the area of the contact patch always be the same for different tire sizes...?
Consider two 26" tall tires (i.e. same height), one has 100mm wide tread, the other has 300mm wide tread... there is no way that the contact patch area is the same.
The force on each of those tires will be the same, but the spread of the force will be different (force divided by area), the skinny tire will sink in sand, the fat tire will float on sand.
Consider two 26" tall tires (i.e. same height), one has 100mm wide tread, the other has 300mm wide tread... there is no way that the contact patch area is the same.
The force on each of those tires will be the same, but the spread of the force will be different (force divided by area), the skinny tire will sink in sand, the fat tire will float on sand.
05-11-2011, 11:02 PM
#25
TECH Senior Member
Your second statement isn't really pertinent to our conversation, tire dynamics on non-paved roads are a bit different. This debate was centered on the assumption (at least I thought so, if we want to introduce even more variables to confuse ourselves with, be my guest) that we're talking about tires on paved roads or racetracks. And no, I contradicted nothing. Considering 2 26" tall tires, one being 300mm wide, one being 100mm wide, and the same applied force - yes, the AREA (in square inches, square centimeters, however you want to measure it) will be identical. The 300mm wide tire will have a wide, but longitudinally narrow contact patch, whereas the 100mm tire will obviously have a narrower, but longitudinally longer contact patch (picture them as rectangles).
Yes, I am familiar with various units of measurement of area.
Are you assuming the 100mm wide tire has no air in it...? They're both the same height i.e. have the same radius.
Consider this: what if you have three 100mm wide tires (on wheels) stacked together (a dualie plus one, if you will)... the total width is approximately 300mm, how does the total contact area compare...?
If you choose not to believe me, here's a thread from bimmerforums with a couple of ALMS engineers (techno550, & steved033). Please, argue with the principles of physics with people WITH physics degree's who help win championships for major pro racing.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?p=2667862
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?p=2667862
What they are saying at that forum is that friction is not dependent on tire size, and that the load on the tire is the same regardless of the contact area, so the wider tire has a smaller per unit area loading (meaning that it can support a larger load than the skinny tire)... did you read the technical tidbits at that forum, I think you missed some of what was said (with all due respect, of course).
Last edited by joecar; 05-11-2011 at 11:17 PM.
05-11-2011, 11:30 PM
#26
Yes, of course, paved roads.
Yes, I am familiar with various units of measurement of area.
Are you assuming the 100mm wide tire has no air in it...? They're both the same height i.e. have the same radius.
Consider this: what if you have three 100mm wide tires (on wheels) stacked together (a dualie plus one, if you will)... the total width is approximately 300mm, how does the total contact area compare...?
The tire technical discussion going on at that forum supports the contact area being different with differing tire size, and you're quoting that link as supporting your statement that the contact patch area is independent of tire size.
What they are saying at that forum is that friction is not dependent on tire size, and that the load on the tire is the same regardless of the contact area, so the wider tire has a smaller per unit area loading (meaning that it can support a larger load than the skinny tire)... did you read the technical tidbits at that forum, I think you missed some of what was said (with all due respect, of course).
Yes, I am familiar with various units of measurement of area.
Are you assuming the 100mm wide tire has no air in it...? They're both the same height i.e. have the same radius.
Consider this: what if you have three 100mm wide tires (on wheels) stacked together (a dualie plus one, if you will)... the total width is approximately 300mm, how does the total contact area compare...?
The tire technical discussion going on at that forum supports the contact area being different with differing tire size, and you're quoting that link as supporting your statement that the contact patch area is independent of tire size.
What they are saying at that forum is that friction is not dependent on tire size, and that the load on the tire is the same regardless of the contact area, so the wider tire has a smaller per unit area loading (meaning that it can support a larger load than the skinny tire)... did you read the technical tidbits at that forum, I think you missed some of what was said (with all due respect, of course).
I have to agree, you're right. I don't know why I was thinking that, thats always the way I understood it from them explaining it in person. Larger tire - larger contact patch, less force per unit area than a smaller tire.
