Does anyone have first hand experience with ceramic coating of the combustion chambers and valve faces?
What about coating the exhaust ports?
I have seen this as added options when having heads built.
What find of HP do you think it is worth?
What are the pro’s and con’s?

 

That doesnt make much sense to me.Eventually itll flake off which means all of that will be in the cylinders.
i could see it dropping temps but im not sure id do it.

 

yeah i agree with Mr. Spider it may help with the heat factor but i dont think that i would trust that. i wouldnt want the risk of something like that getting inside of my cylinders. plus i wouldnt see it making a huge difference as far as heat is concerned that would make it worth it.

 

https://ls1tech.com/forums/advanced-engineering-tech/435566-piston-thermal-barrier-coating.html

 

Guy’s this coating is applied to a well prep surface, sand blasted, sprayed, then baked. It is not going to flake off.
These coating are used by a lot of high-end race team in both NASCAR and Drag racing ect.

I guess a better question should have been is it worth the added $$$$ for a N/A street and race car set-up, if so what kind of HP and added benefit will we see?

 

I have used the ceramic coating on an 300hp mercury racing outboard. It did work but you have to be very carefull when you apply it. I had coated the combustion chamber's and top's of the pistons and another product on the piston skirt's. I had to media blast the entire piston and then clean them extremly well. I mean perfect. When you actually spray it on (I used an airbrush) you have to be extremely carefull not to over apply it. Then you have to bake it on for sometime. I can't give you exact gain #'s because I never dynoed the customers engine. It can flake off if not applied perfectly.

 

The exhaust ports would be useless to coat. Your main gains from coating would be on the intake valves and pistons. Coating the intake valves allows them to stay cooler, thus not heating up the air from the intake as it passes around into the combustion chamber. Coated pistons would also promote better heat transfer and less heat soak.

 

I did a test and picked up about 2-3 percent on the lower lift numbers but the numbers were the same in the higher lifts. All I coated was the back sides of the intake valve. Use the best. Polydyn in Texas. I would not use the do it yourself stuff. Don't worry about doing the chambers. It will stay in there if done right.

Rich

 

I don't think that the primary reason for coating pistons and or combustion chambers is to mainly "insulate" the piston or combustion chamber but to create an "even: heat across the given surfaces to help eliminate hot spots due to inconsistencies of the metal. At least that is what I think, I'm definately interested in what the experts have to say.

I've also been tossing around the idea of what cryo treating and coating and engine and its parts would do

 

From what I've heard, cryo doesn't do enough to merit the price. Coating is the way to go if you're looking in that direction.

 

I emailed Trickflow about ceramic coatings. Their reply was that they have seen no horsepower increase but in longevity of the motors.

I emailed Keith Black Pistons(company?) and they I would be better off polishing the tops of their hyper eutectic pistons.

A local head porter says that by ceramic coating the intake and exhaust valves it gives you like a 3 octane boost from the tests he has seen.

Just what I have been told. By the way on my next rebuild I will be getting the valves ceramic coated and I will be polishing the tops of my Kieth Black pistons.

 

Octane boost effect is from the cooler air temps and less hot spots (aka less prone to detonation and able to run more timing).

 

Thanks for your work and research.
I am running stock block and pistons that I fly cut. I will polish them, that’s a great idea.
I am still considering haven the chamber and valve faces coated.

All the little things add up!
Bob

 

Check this place out, they do coating
http://www.pm-fl.com/

 

We've got everything in our GN coated.

The pistons,rods,and bearings.

The chambers, the valves, and the exhaust ports.

We've also got the impeller side and the exhaust housing of the turbo along with the inside of the headers and downpipe coated.

I only use PolyDyn. The coating doesn't flake off, and it does help, and it does make power...

 

Seriously though. In a non-automotive application (kart racing) gains were in the neighborhood of 5-7 % and repeatable. This is with a thermally inefficient engine design (all aluminum). The gains were there and testing scenarios proved it time and time again. What was interesting about the project was the positive side affects that it had on the engine combination. In addition to the raw power increase we were able to adjust the fuel curve (leaner jetting), and lessen cooling requirements which in turn allowed us to free up even more power by stalling air to the engine driven cooling fan. I would expect to see gains in the same neighborhood in an automotive application. Is it worth it? Well it will probably cost you $350 or so to get a set of pistons done with TBC and AF coatings. When you are at a 500-600hp level $350 is cheap for a 20-30 hp increase that otherwise has no adverse effects on your engine combination.

 

Maybe we should find out whats worth getting coated and what isnt, that would help out alot. That GN should give you some info on what is worth it and what isnt, Im rebuilding my 4G63. Im just going to use a stock bottum end but I was thinking about getting the pistons coated also.

 

Do you think that there would be a negative effect if I only coated the chambers, valves, exhaust ports and not the pistons as I am not dissembling the engine?
The stock pistons are weak already and if I only coat the chambers and valve would that reflect more heat into the already weak pistons?
Bob

 

No negative effect, however the biggest gains I have seen were TBC on the piston top and on the cylinder head.

 

We have been doing coatings now for many years and our coating division is run by Omar Guerrero who was the man at PolyDyn we hired him and moved him up here about 7 years ago. WE have used our coatings now in professional drag racing for about 12-15 years. We coat parts for Roush, Kalitta, Enderle, Aeromotive, and several others... Coatings have alot of positive reasons for using them, longetivity, power, protection, friction reducing, etc. Things that we coat on a normal basis would be crankshaft throws this releases the oil from the weights and cuts down the friction when traveling through the oil, rods also for oil sheding, pistons tops and skirts, the skirts reduce friction and increase life and the tops are to promote reflection, the reflection puts the heat in the chamber this allows the motor to make more power. We have tried the polished tops and it didnt work for us, so we are back to coated tops. We have coated flat tappet cams, rockers, springs for longer life, headers, turbo housings to help prevent heat, oil pump gears and housings, and fuel pump gears that promotes longer life. Coating chambers and exhaust ports as well as valves is a benefit to the engine, coating exhaust chamber improves air speed, but not air flow necessarily. We have done alot of testing, remember we have activily partipated in NHRA Pro Stock now longer than Dart has been in business, and if there is some which craft our there that will or could or can make more power we have already tried it, so let our experience help you guys. Coating piston tops and chambers keeps the heat in the chamber instead of it being soaked into the aluminum this will make more power, coating the valve face has some lasting durability reasons, and the exhaust ports improves air speed.
The process of coatings shouldnt be done at home you truely cant get the same results, coatings need to adhere to an oil free environment, and no matter how much soap and water you use you wont get it clean enough. And all too often guys use sand to blast pistons, ouch too course, all materials we coat have certain levels of texture blasting material to use, after blasting, the parts are then run through and ultrasonic washer, then rinsed, and then heated up to 300 degree, then washed again immediately after to get any oils in the pores of the alloys. All alloys will have some oils, and chemicals in the metal from the manufacturing process. After this is done you will then coat them using the correct coating for the correct environment is critical after this, as well as applying it and then baking it correctly which will include the time and the heat cycle. I have had pistons come back after 500 miles at Daytona and man they were run hard and lean, but the pistons never burned up. Here is a true story about Connie Kalittas NHRA Top Fuel team, and you can stop by and ask him. During their runs the teams often burn up main bearings as you can immagine the cylinder pressure is trying to drive out the crankshaft. Anyways they would blacken the crank journals, what that means is it would be like a blakc chrome look, unusable after that, they would have to send them out have the journals all rewelded and recut to use them again. We told them hey try our coated bearings we do this for alot of other teams he said ok. SO they did well it still kicked the crap out of the bearings, but no more crank blackening now they can reuse the cranks on the spot, this has saved them thousands of dollars. Springs are another area, heat fatigues valve springs, just like your springs under your car, heat them with a torch and see what happens, well that same concept applies with valve springs, coating them adds a heat barrier and prolongs the life of the spring. Remember guys we have been racing NHRA since the 60's and Dart has emerged as a business 25 years ago and if there is something out there some kind of magic witch craft to make you go faster we have already tried it, already proved it wrong or right, and more than likely learned from it to make our company better. If you ahve any coating questions or would like to get some done call Omar Guerrero at 248-362-1188. Thanks