saw this on an other forum and thought you guys would like to take a look and disscus!

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing...48517&f=66&h=0

Chris.

PS. would like to ask you guys about a post on there regarding using water to help spool a turbo when off the throttle! you think it could work?????

 

I'm not any expert, but could you get enough energy from the water to suffice another stroke or would it just put more strain on the other pistons to puch the empty one? The guy is only appearing to be using it on a 1 cylinder engine right now.

 

Kinda seemed like it was from what they said "paint blasted from the ceiling by the powerful pulses of exhaust gas and steam" that ceiling didnt look to low. I think I would like driving something like this instead of a hybrid if emissions get really strict in the future. If they do a dyno I'd really like to see the chart.

 

me to red dragon!

know it man, he is using the combution products to heat the heat on the fith stroke. the system looks to work but i would lie to see some dynos! the really good thing is the heat though! its nearly all removed in the exhaust! emagine how strong you could build a block without having to worry about cooling????

a side note though is the use of water injection into the exhaust manifold to spool the turbo! do you guys thing it would work??? its the same tech of usingthe exhaust gasses to convert water to steam but its used against the turbo not the pisstion! any ideas??????

thanks Chris.

 

i understand his idea, just incase someone doesnt understand: you have 2 fuel tanks, one gas one water, here are cycles of engine:1:downstroke, air pulled in. 2:compress air/fuel mixture, 3: ignite and exposion causes power and downstroke, 4:dont let exhaust out like normal engine. keep some or all and compress it. 5: spray a tiny amount of water in and it expands tremendously and cools and causes power and downstroke again. 6: open exhaust valve all the way this time and let all combustion and steam gasses out exhaust.

some kinda cam you gotta have to open exhaust valve twice and different amounts for one time you open intake. it would have to be a big cam with cutaway of bunny ear shape not teardrop shape!?? for exhaust lobe.


i was just thinking about this same idea, really! the idea of using lost power from heat not his injection idea. i dismissed it thinking that it wasnt much energy but he says it's like 40% possible gain! as far as weight, theres no gain or negative gain cuz a water tank for fuel will weigh more than the current amount of water in a radiator system cuz it will be more water. but thats not the biggest deal. there are two things that worry me about this idea. first that he mentions recompressing the combusted gasses without opening the exhaust valve! all the pressure that creates the power to push a piston, that's enormous pressure, he wants to compress it! that will stress everything as much as detonation does! and your losing alot of power you just gained by just pushing it back. that aspect means that IF you do this (compress postcombustion gasses) then you're engine is getting no power directly from gas, just heat and then you're getting power from the steam. an engine that strong will have to be pretty heavy. the whole explosion and compression forces of piston going down then back up will cancel each other and you just have a ton of pressure and heat, and THEN you want to spray water in there and increase pressure by an order of magnitude!!! AND make all that metal go from high a$$ temp to low temp (even if water is warmed and sprayed in a tiny mist in tiny amount, water has capability of reducing heat tremendously,more so than any other substance, i beleive). That will stress the block and parts tremendously. and different parts may heat and cool at different times, the outside wall may stay at medium temp and the combustion chamber will go up and dow in temp huge amounts. maybe the temp can be handled but the pressure! you're talking about multiplying the current max pressure of an engine times the amount of compression (say 10) and then put a little steam, which may increase times ten again or more? so rough estimates of 100 times current max pressure!?? or more!! i think it's a good idea but without compressing the postcombustion gasses. you don't want to undo the power you got from gas, you just want more power from the power wasted as heat. I have an idea that could make his design better, i think!?? but i can't tell everyone my idea!? at least not until i know it's a bad one, lol.

 

You would just use a second exhaust valve is all.
Water tends to contaminate and cause corrosion, so a full time deal isn't yet practical anyway.

 

Very high levels of simple water injection have of course often been experimented with and used. In the thirties, Ricardo in England found that he could mix in enough at WOTto completely eliminate the need for a cooling system. I suppose if you ran the exhaust/discharge from such an engine through a turbo, you'd be getting additional mass flow plus all the heat energy normally lost to the cooling system.
However, what would it do to the actual exhaust temperature? The 'quality' of heat is a big factor and the available temperature difference might be too small to reap much benefit.
Also, although using water injection to eliminate detonation gives more power than eliminating it via lower boost, retarded spark, etc., it reduces power vs. higher octane fuel and no water, so one might wonder if the negative effects of massive water injection on the actual combustion process would outweigh any benefit at the turbo.

 

this is great! so glad i started it thanks guys

Mad Bill when i was on about using the water to help drive the trubo, i ment actually spraying water into the manifold, not through the engine! this would then use the exhaust gas temps to produce steam and then drive the turbo. once upto boost you turn the water off and let the trubo do its thing!!!!

would be great on the drag strip! if you could get it right and had enouigh heat then you could actually spool the turbo upto fall speed on the line!!!!!

also on the road you could have like an over boost were the water would be injected whilsed at WOT to spin the trubo even harder!

is this too godd to work or could someone be on to something??????

thanks Chris.

 

over boost the turbo like a helicopter can over torque their motors, I like that.

 

Holding the exhaust in would not be that bad. The displacement on demand engines don't let out the exhaust from the last stroke as they go into 4 cylinder mode. My guess is to keep pressure on the piston so it is not just being slapped around.

If it was tweaked correctly pretty much all of the water would be steam and leave the engine anyways. Besides a good bit of your exhaust now it steam. But yes some of it would condense in the headers and exhaust pipe... Stainless steel anyone?

 

BigMike, year the whole exhaust system would have to be stainless. soo do you guys recon there would be enough heat energy and time for steam to eb made inthe headers before the turbo???

i think there would after seeing a vid of an evo on the dyno and the headers glowwinf red! would have thought there would be more than enough time and heat to turn a little bit of water into steam and over boost the turbo/spoll it quicker.

Thanks for all the imput guys.

Chris.

 

But water is a main part of combustion anyways. How much of a difference do you think the water would make with respect to corrosion? And some boosted engines use water injection, and I haven’t read anything about corrosion issues with them, mind you it still isn’t as much water as this engine is proposing.

I would deffinately like to learn some more about this engine.

 

would using water work? Wouldn't it become expensive? I mean it's corrosive, it freezes, and wouldn't adding any additonal chemicals/solutions to the water would take away any of the benefits and usefullness of turning water into steam? Am I the only one who thinks that this just won't be possible if designed like it is described in the article?

 

Guys, there are a lot of things that won't work about the way he has his engine set up now. But you have to look at this from the viewpoint of engineering. It is an idea, and a way outside the box idea. And now that the ground has been broke on the idea of a 6 stroke engine, it is going to be investigated.
It is always funny how engineering goes in circles. We were using steam engines over 100 years ago never thinking anything better would be found.
Then came along gas and steam went to the way side. But now, a great thinker has broken the barrier of utilizing water again and I think it will start a great trend.

Again, we could sit here and put holes in this thing until the electricity to power the server that we use everyday runs out. We have to take the idea and run with it. Maybe use a small amount of gasoline on the 6th stroke to have the same effect. Think outside the box here guys.

 

thanks for all your posts guys. this is why i put it on here, for us all to think about!

i do understandthat there are fllaws in the system, likeh fact you wll need lots of water (well as much water as fuel) but then you will use less fuel!

also the idea of running without a cooling system sounds really good to me! have anyof you seen the 4000bhp 4.8 ltr 4cylinder drag car????? it uses a soild ally block!! it msut be sooooo strong. and if we could find a way to use this thech, if only to remove the heat out the exhaust not into the cooling system, then we could build much lighter/stronger engines!

thanks again guys.

Chris.

 

There is also some extensive research being performed in carbon nanotubes...which would absolutely change everything as we know it. An engine constructed using these nanotubes as the building blocks would be extremly strong, extremely light and extremely energy efficent. I hope this research comes to market within the neaxt 10 years or so....but that may be quite optimistic.

 

Pratt and Whitney R2800 Double Wasps and Packard Merlins used water injection at maximum output to reduce detonation and heat, even with 150 octane fuel.

The Daimler-Benz DB605 series of engines, as well as the Jumo 213, used something almost identical, they mixed alcohol into it though (MW-50). Of course, the Germans didn't have the level of fuel quality and quantity we did.

So water injection was definitely a plus. Then again, those were very high compression (high altitude) engines, with forced induction on top. I guess even 150 octane only goes so far. lol

 

Are you referring to gm's dod engines? I wasn't aware they were capable of keeping the exhaust valve closed, i don't really see how the could and highly doubt it. With the amount of expansion that goes on during the combustion process it would be extremely hard on the engine if not hurt it.
The corrosion can be stopped by simply adding an additive such as antifreeze to the water. To be honest though i don't really see this going anywhere except diesel application, like somebody else said the amount of heating and cooling going on so rapidly and often would require something of the strength of a diesel. My guess is long term durability would be a problem and would require the use of expensive materials which would offset it's benefit.
Also I wouldn't even count on this going anywhere solely due to the reason that a lot of important people stand to lose more than they gain. The oil industry truly rules the world.

 

but i wont forever!

oil prices are rising and demand is increasing! and its becoming hard and hard to find and effectivly get the stuff! reservse are drying out and the places where there is still plenty (the far east) are becoming ever more less willing (for whatever reasons) not to give it away! also emmisions regs are getting tighter!

sooner people will have to start thinking our the box as to what to run their cars on!

so why not try and develop this sort of thech, even if it fails, now rather than sticking our heads in the sand and then going "oh **** where is all the oil gone????"

just my thoughts but they are important to me!

Chris.

 

This is still a 4-stroke design, but BMW has apparently been playing with steam as well in a hybrid configuration. I didn't really find any more info than this article however.

http://www.gizmag.com/go/4936/