Cam not degreed
Cam not degreed I had my cam installed and it was "degreed" using the lining up of the cam and crank gears. It was not done using a piston stop and a degree wheel. My question is how much of a performance loss can this cause. My car with all its mods is only running 13.1 @ 104 with some knock which I cant seem to get rid of. If i chose to degree the cam using the correct methods how much do you guys think im looking at for the engine removal, degreeing and reinstall.
Teching In
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: Houston, TX
You shouldn't see a huge loss, if anything at all. by just lining up the dots this puts the cam in where the manufacturer had it ground. Unless you had a timing set that allowed for offset keys to adjust it you wouldn't be able to adjust it anyway.
Assuming that your cam isn't off more than 2 to 4 degrees, I doubt that you would gain more than 2 or 3 percent at max power even if it were exactly correct. I'd focus on some tuning to get rid of the KR and making sure that your AFR is correct and not worry too much about the cam phasing at this time. With average manufacturing tolerances and allowing for some timing chain stretch, my guess is that your cam is pretty well right (no more than three degrees off).
Steve
Steve
Originally Posted by Steve Bryant
Assuming that your cam isn't off more than 2 to 4 degrees, I doubt that you would gain more than 2 or 3 percent at max power even if it were exactly correct. I'd focus on some tuning to get rid of the KR and making sure that your AFR is correct and not worry too much about the cam phasing at this time. With average manufacturing tolerances and allowing for some timing chain stretch, my guess is that your cam is pretty well right (no more than three degrees off).
Steve
Steve
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TECH Junkie
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,092
Likes: 11
The problem is you will never know how much power you may have left on the table. It could be zero or a lot. I personally have seen cams up to seven degrees off when installed dot to dot. We are talking alot of horsepower if that is the case.
I could see a cam being off by 7 degrees affecting power. If it's off by a couple of degrees its a crap shoot. I degree my cams on the dyno to achieve the most power out of my combination possible. I'll advance or retard the cam between pulls until the power drops off, or not. Usually I'll be looking at area under the curve and sometimes a high or low trend. While sometimes the most power is made with the cam intalled straight up, more often than not best power will be made somewhere else. Ive had cams that were recomended for my combination that actually took an advance of 6 degrees to make maximum power. With a recomended nitrous grind I used last year I found another 20 RWHP with the cam retarded 5 degrees. And this was with the cam manf knowing all of the major variables on the engine.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,220
Likes: 0
From: Nashville, TN
Originally Posted by engineermike
I'm pretty sure you can degree the cam without pulling the motor.
Originally Posted by engineermike
I'm pretty sure you can degree the cam without pulling the motor.
Definatly. Just pull alt,power steering,ac, and radiator to get some room. you can not degree with a stock timing set just check to make sure its ground correctly. If you post a dyno graph we can probably tell you if its degreed right.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 3
From: Upstate NY
Originally Posted by TT632
I could see a cam being off by 7 degrees affecting power. If it's off by a couple of degrees its a crap shoot. I degree my cams on the dyno to achieve the most power out of my combination possible. I'll advance or retard the cam between pulls until the power drops off, or not. Usually I'll be looking at area under the curve and sometimes a high or low trend. While sometimes the most power is made with the cam intalled straight up, more often than not best power will be made somewhere else. Ive had cams that were recomended for my combination that actually took an advance of 6 degrees to make maximum power. With a recomended nitrous grind I used last year I found another 20 RWHP with the cam retarded 5 degrees. And this was with the cam manf knowing all of the major variables on the engine.
If you were looking for the last 1% more power (or torque) in a racing engine, and the cam was degreed in 1° off from the design, you probably wouldn't see the increase. Is that important? It could be the difference between winning and losing a race or a championship.
People who buy H/C packages and don't degree in the cam to the design either are leaving power/torque they paid for on the table if the installed ICL is incorrect. If they don't know where the cam is installed then they don't really know if they are getting what they paid for. Ignornance is bliss.
TECH Addict
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,153
Likes: 3
Originally Posted by Old SStroker
People who buy H/C packages and don't degree in the cam to the design either are leaving power/torque they paid for on the table if the installed ICL is incorrect. If they don't know where the cam is installed then they don't really know if they are getting what they paid for. Ignornance is bliss.
Mike
Originally Posted by TT632
I could see a cam being off by 7 degrees affecting power. If it's off by a couple of degrees its a crap shoot. I degree my cams on the dyno to achieve the most power out of my combination possible. I'll advance or retard the cam between pulls until the power drops off, or not. Usually I'll be looking at area under the curve and sometimes a high or low trend. While sometimes the most power is made with the cam intalled straight up, more often than not best power will be made somewhere else. Ive had cams that were recomended for my combination that actually took an advance of 6 degrees to make maximum power. With a recomended nitrous grind I used last year I found another 20 RWHP with the cam retarded 5 degrees. And this was with the cam manf knowing all of the major variables on the engine.
Originally Posted by ShiznityZ28
Definatly. Just pull alt,power steering,ac, and radiator to get some room. you can not degree with a stock timing set just check to make sure its ground correctly. If you post a dyno graph we can probably tell you if its degreed right.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 3
From: Upstate NY
Originally Posted by engineermike
Though this may be true in some cases, in most H/C packages, I don't think that much thought or R&D went into deriving the perfect cam spec's.
Mike
Mike
Originally Posted by WOTFMAN
Actually you are wrong. You can use the stock timing sets with offset bushings to advance or retard. Takes a little machining but it can definitely be done.
At that point the Comp adjustable set is cheeper and easyer
whats it like $200