chuntington101

yur right! take a look back to the mid 80's and what the engins looked like back then. provbably similar to what a v8 twin turbo diesel F1 would look like now

also worth noting is that in 2009, F1 car are going to have to have some kind of power recovery system. this is a majour step and could point to alternative fuels being used!

Chris.

Wnts2Go10O

iTrader: (12)

power recovery?

chuntington101

yeah. they are basically system that use braking power to generate energy that can then be used on the exit of the corners.

there are a few ideas kicking about at the mo. Xtrac has a very interesting flywheel design. on braking the PRS (power recovery system) flywheel is driven of the engines flywheel thus helping slow the car down. this energy is then storded in the PRS's flywheel untill the exit of the corner. then a second clutch and CVT system will engage to put the flywheels power back to the road.

the other ideas revolve around the tried and test meth of using a gernator to stores the energy in batteries or capacitors.

thanks Chris.

Richiec77

iTrader: (3)

Man. That is so cool. Looks like an old school Train moving down the track with the huge smoke stack.

On the subject of Propane, how does it work for a diesel? Do they inject it at the same point in the cycle as you do with diesel? I.E. TDC and later. If so, is it a power producer by way of increasing the combustion ability of the engine by increasing the temperature or helping with fully compusting the mixture?

chuntington101

im not 100% sure, its was in a article in a mag i read. i "think" it is injected into the intake more like alky injection than direct port.

as for what it does, again this is from memory, but i think it speeds up the combutuion of the diesel. it probably does this by increasing cylinder temps but im not sure. also it is a fuel so it will help push past the limits of the stock injectors.

i will have to dig out the mag when i get back (im away this weekend until monday) and have another read. it was interesting. i will post what it says when i get chance.

anyone else know anything about this????

Chris.

z28hustle

i would like to know about the propane with turbo diesels as well.. i have heard some pretty interesting things

gametech

iTrader: (1)

BTW, I seriously doubt that the original thread starter is getting 600hp from a chip. Probably more like 600ftlbs. Also, the very nature of current diesel technology makes them great for accelerating huge masses slowly, and terrible for accelerating small masses quickly. It is just physically impossible to inject the same amount of fuel directly into the combustion chamber as you can inject into the intake tract. Less fuel = less power. As far as the Audi race engine goes, I would like to see it compete against a spark ignition motor with the same rules for displacement, boost, and weight.

chuntington101

come on mate! we all know the gas version would win hands down, well untill the gas car had to stop for fuel!!

and why is a diesel cr*p for a light weight car??? im currently reading about a guy putting a VW 1.9 diesel into a westfield (like a lotus or caterham 7). get the gearing right and you can gear the torque into power!

Chris.

Wnts2Go10O

iTrader: (12)

huh, thats pretty cool

gametech

iTrader: (1)

I never said diesels were crap for a light car. The point I was making was as follows. Diesels rev lower, so they make their power with huge amounts of torque. More torque requires stronger (read heavier) components throughout the motor and driveline. If you are pulling a trailer, a little extra engine and driveline weight is negligible. However, if you are drag racing a lightweight vehicle, that extra weight is very noticeable.

Gannet

The real question is: why? A diesel is good if you need to move a heavy load, or if fuel economy is a primary goal. For racing they are exactly the wrong choice. They have a very poor power/weight ratio. They are only competitive at Le Mans because the rules give them huge advantages.
If people are interested in "green" racing, use alcohol!

chuntington101

sorry mate, i must have read it wrong.

yes the engines are havier, but ally blocks will be coming out soon and that will make a big differance.

as for the drivetrain, yes it will have to be a little bit havier than say an NA setup, but it would be no worse than a big power turbo setup.

also worth noting that companies like BMW have sequnetial turbo diesels hat offer much better powerband and driveability. also i think honda is useing a sequential setup on its 2.2ltr 4pot diesel!

thanks Chris.

1BadAction

iTrader: (10)

put the same turbo setups into an alky fueled car and it'll destroy the diesel. diesels have their place, but a race track isnt one of them.

Jpr5690

iTrader: (13)

I Dunno My Point Wasnt To Talk About Whats Best Its More Of Just A Cool Idea That Would Be Somewhat Unique

But To Your Guys Point With The Right Tranny And Gearing Even A Diesel Can Be Fast

Hell Ppe Has Their Silverado Running 10.80's So Now Knock 10,000 Lbs Off The Weight Of The Truck With Respect To Putting That Same Motor In A Car And You Really Have Something Verry Fast..

1BadAction

iTrader: (10)

you cant just build some flyweight car chassis and expect it to work with a diesel. theres a reason those trucks are so heavy, and it isn't just because they feel like using alot of steel... EVERYthing around a diesel engine needs to be built heavier, something with 2000lbft of Tq would twist a regular race car up like my Gfs underwear when I tell her shes getting fat.

now for a regular street ride like the PMR car, i think its an awesome deal. runs like a stout small block and gets awesome fuel mileage.

92zcamaroperson

iTrader: (18)

they were already mentioned but audi's diesel powered R10 cars are dominating. I believe they have a rev limit of about 5500 to 6000 rpm. I was at the sebring 12 hour race last year and saw them. Very impressive. They were way ahead of everyone else. odd sounding cars too. The corvettes and aston martins would scream by and then the audi would just hum right along. Cant wait for them to bring out their street versions

95LT1963

there are MANY diesel runin in the low tens and high 9s......one reason why the deisel is ALL torque is because fuel is FORCED into the cyl even if there is not room for it hince all the black smoke...and fuel is injected through out the intire power stroke from BDC to TDC. That is why ther Trq curve is DAMN near straight across the board..and i have a 99 7.3 powerstroke which i have tuned my self using EFI live and dyno tuned it when i was at schooll...i just put my new 250 hp injecters in...so i am waiting to go and re tune it one weekend when i go back down to houston...im shooting for 700 hp and 1300 Trq.... but i am a certified for 7.3 and 6.0 tech and soon to be the trashy 6.4 TT ....but diesel are coming towards the trach and its goin to be a bad day when all track cars are all shootin black clouds out

SSBound

iTrader: (3)

i would rather have a supercharger then a turbo

PowerShift408

iTrader: (44)

I doubt that. The Audi's in the Le Mans P1 division run a redline of 5k rpm.

dan@masportspeedshop

iTrader: (6)

For those interested in propane injection for diesels, it's injected into the intake duct or can be plumbed into the intake manifold. Propane is introduced as a gas into the incoming air charge. The only major differences between commercially available systems is whether the propane is fed from the bottom of the tank (liquid feed) or top of the tank (gas feed). The liquid fed systems require a regulator assembly which also converts the liquid propane to gas for delivery to the intake. The propane system is usually activated when manifold pressure reaches a certain point, usually 5-7 psi. Below that it's redundant, as the turbo hasn't spooled enough and isn't delivering enough air to burn all of the available diesel and propane. The wild ones out there run dry nitrous at low rpm to burn all of the diesel right off the line, then cut the nitrous at 1 psi below the introduction of the propane. Propane helps make more power by allowing the diesel to burn more thoroughly, as well as adding to combustion heat and cylinder pressure on its own. As with any diesel upgrade though, exhaust gas temps can run high and must be monitored. Some systems have fail safe modes that cut propane injection if exhaust temps get too high. It's not a bad setup for those that want more power after they've installed a chip or flash tune to their truck. And the propane is cheaper than diesel, so you can save a few bucks per mile of travel if you tow often. We've installed a few systems with good results.

One other thought to diesel racing and rev limits as well, the other limiting factor is fuel burn time and driveline weight. To get higher than 5,000 rpm, you have to make up for diesel fuel's slow burn time. This is why Audi limits their race engines to 5-5.5 k. Any more rpm, and you begin to lose efficiency which is diesel's major advantage over gas. Also, not only are the engines heavier, but so are the clutches, transmissions, driveshafts, and differentials/rear axles. They need to be to handle the greater torque. Interesting FYI...when I converted a few Mercedes Benz CLK DTMs to Federal emission specs, I noticed that they were equipped with the rear diffs from the 190 series diesels. They were smaller in size than the standard CLK differential, but much meatier to take the added torque of the supercharged AMG 55 engine. So some diesel parts do make it to the track even in gas powered applications. Bottom line is that there are some races that diesels can prove competitive in (endurance) and some that they'll fail miserably at (sprint or drag). Right tool for the right job, as always.
Cheers!