why not turbo diesel
06-26-2007, 01:33 AM
#42
Originally Posted by dan@masportspeedshop
For those interested in propane injection for diesels, it's injected into the intake duct or can be plumbed into the intake manifold. Propane is introduced as a gas into the incoming air charge. The only major differences between commercially available systems is whether the propane is fed from the bottom of the tank (liquid feed) or top of the tank (gas feed). The liquid fed systems require a regulator assembly which also converts the liquid propane to gas for delivery to the intake. The propane system is usually activated when manifold pressure reaches a certain point, usually 5-7 psi. Below that it's redundant, as the turbo hasn't spooled enough and isn't delivering enough air to burn all of the available diesel and propane. The wild ones out there run dry nitrous at low rpm to burn all of the diesel right off the line, then cut the nitrous at 1 psi below the introduction of the propane. Propane helps make more power by allowing the diesel to burn more thoroughly, as well as adding to combustion heat and cylinder pressure on its own. As with any diesel upgrade though, exhaust gas temps can run high and must be monitored. Some systems have fail safe modes that cut propane injection if exhaust temps get too high. It's not a bad setup for those that want more power after they've installed a chip or flash tune to their truck. And the propane is cheaper than diesel, so you can save a few bucks per mile of travel if you tow often. We've installed a few systems with good results.
One other thought to diesel racing and rev limits as well, the other limiting factor is fuel burn time and driveline weight. To get higher than 5,000 rpm, you have to make up for diesel fuel's slow burn time. This is why Audi limits their race engines to 5-5.5 k. Any more rpm, and you begin to lose efficiency which is diesel's major advantage over gas. Also, not only are the engines heavier, but so are the clutches, transmissions, driveshafts, and differentials/rear axles. They need to be to handle the greater torque. Interesting FYI...when I converted a few Mercedes Benz CLK DTMs to Federal emission specs, I noticed that they were equipped with the rear diffs from the 190 series diesels. They were smaller in size than the standard CLK differential, but much meatier to take the added torque of the supercharged AMG 55 engine. So some diesel parts do make it to the track even in gas powered applications. Bottom line is that there are some races that diesels can prove competitive in (endurance) and some that they'll fail miserably at (sprint or drag). Right tool for the right job, as always.
Cheers!
One other thought to diesel racing and rev limits as well, the other limiting factor is fuel burn time and driveline weight. To get higher than 5,000 rpm, you have to make up for diesel fuel's slow burn time. This is why Audi limits their race engines to 5-5.5 k. Any more rpm, and you begin to lose efficiency which is diesel's major advantage over gas. Also, not only are the engines heavier, but so are the clutches, transmissions, driveshafts, and differentials/rear axles. They need to be to handle the greater torque. Interesting FYI...when I converted a few Mercedes Benz CLK DTMs to Federal emission specs, I noticed that they were equipped with the rear diffs from the 190 series diesels. They were smaller in size than the standard CLK differential, but much meatier to take the added torque of the supercharged AMG 55 engine. So some diesel parts do make it to the track even in gas powered applications. Bottom line is that there are some races that diesels can prove competitive in (endurance) and some that they'll fail miserably at (sprint or drag). Right tool for the right job, as always.
Cheers!
thanks Chris.
06-27-2007, 12:41 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by 92zcamaroperson
they were already mentioned but audi's diesel powered R10 cars are dominating.
07-03-2007, 07:55 PM
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HI fellas.. Hi all-- first post here.
The turbodiesel has a lot of advantages that others have mentioned-- hi efficiency, air/fuel ratio flexibility, etc.
But that comes are a price. Others have mentioned the RPM limits inherent with the slow combustion speed of typical diesel fuel. This limit is aggravated my the higher static compression requirements of a diesel engine that usually dictate an undersquare, long-stroke design.
I have a Dodge Cummins that's been modestly warmed over, but it's still over 1000 lb-ft, and around 400hp. Unfortunately, 400hp doesn't go very far at all pushing a 6800# truck around! But it *is* enough to have fun with , and it will pull just about anything with a hitch.
Another limitation is weight. Most diesels have to be quite beefy, and this exacts a high weight penalty. My 5.9L Cummins weighs almost half a ton on the skid! It's the price of admission though to be able to run a 17:1 CR engine and add upwards of 50psi to that. I only run about 38psi, but lots of diesel guys I know are well over 80psi, with the big dogs well into triple digits. You can imagine the difficulty involved in sealing a cylinder at those pressure levels.
The future holds Cummins V-8 and V-6 engines for future Jeep and other ChryCo vehicles, and these should be more appropriate performance platforms once liberated from the cumbersome emissions gear.
Feel free to PM me with any general diesel questions, or anything specific on the Dodge Cummins. I have over 3000 posts on each of the leading Dodge Cummins forums, and assure you they are not post-padding efforts by me.
Recently a thread came up on my diesel forum where a guy was bragging about his "killing" a late model 'Vette. I couldn't help but call BS based on the dyno numbers he's claiming. Witness the discussion here:
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/d...4&postcount=26
The turbodiesel has a lot of advantages that others have mentioned-- hi efficiency, air/fuel ratio flexibility, etc.
But that comes are a price. Others have mentioned the RPM limits inherent with the slow combustion speed of typical diesel fuel. This limit is aggravated my the higher static compression requirements of a diesel engine that usually dictate an undersquare, long-stroke design.
I have a Dodge Cummins that's been modestly warmed over, but it's still over 1000 lb-ft, and around 400hp. Unfortunately, 400hp doesn't go very far at all pushing a 6800# truck around! But it *is* enough to have fun with , and it will pull just about anything with a hitch.
Another limitation is weight. Most diesels have to be quite beefy, and this exacts a high weight penalty. My 5.9L Cummins weighs almost half a ton on the skid! It's the price of admission though to be able to run a 17:1 CR engine and add upwards of 50psi to that. I only run about 38psi, but lots of diesel guys I know are well over 80psi, with the big dogs well into triple digits. You can imagine the difficulty involved in sealing a cylinder at those pressure levels.
The future holds Cummins V-8 and V-6 engines for future Jeep and other ChryCo vehicles, and these should be more appropriate performance platforms once liberated from the cumbersome emissions gear.
Feel free to PM me with any general diesel questions, or anything specific on the Dodge Cummins. I have over 3000 posts on each of the leading Dodge Cummins forums, and assure you they are not post-padding efforts by me.
Recently a thread came up on my diesel forum where a guy was bragging about his "killing" a late model 'Vette. I couldn't help but call BS based on the dyno numbers he's claiming. Witness the discussion here:
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/d...4&postcount=26
Last edited by HOHN; 07-04-2007 at 12:52 AM.
07-11-2007, 02:03 PM
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you can hop up a diesel pretty good and get great performance out of them.
here is a Mercedes 300TD wagon thats been bumped up to 400+ HP . Both turbo charged and super charged.
Edit: its engine is 3 liters and is rated at 123 hp stock. Its engine red lines at 6K but I guess you can't really call it a red line because there is no red its just the end of the tach. Stock engine don't go past 5K though due to a governor in the injection pump.
video
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v2...=matskuu-1.flv
pics
http://www.kolumbus.fi/valtonen.moto...esel%20022.jpg
http://www.kolumbus.fi/valtonen.moto...kori%20012.jpg
http://www.kolumbus.fi/valtonen.moto...4%E4%20040.jpg
here is a Mercedes 300TD wagon thats been bumped up to 400+ HP . Both turbo charged and super charged.
Edit: its engine is 3 liters and is rated at 123 hp stock. Its engine red lines at 6K but I guess you can't really call it a red line because there is no red its just the end of the tach. Stock engine don't go past 5K though due to a governor in the injection pump.
video
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v2...=matskuu-1.flv
pics
http://www.kolumbus.fi/valtonen.moto...esel%20022.jpg
http://www.kolumbus.fi/valtonen.moto...kori%20012.jpg
http://www.kolumbus.fi/valtonen.moto...4%E4%20040.jpg
Last edited by ConnClark; 07-11-2007 at 02:51 PM.
07-11-2007, 08:24 PM
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I'll be working on a turbo diesel in a '63 Galaxie I got laying around after my current project (far down the road...). But it's mostly for the looks, it already drives like it is made of lead and it won't be a competition car. But man that would be a cool ride for grocery shopping!
07-11-2007, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by LrngCrv
I'll be working on a turbo diesel in a '63 Galaxie I got laying around after my current project (far down the road...). But it's mostly for the looks, it already drives like it is made of lead and it won't be a competition car. But man that would be a cool ride for grocery shopping!
07-12-2007, 06:42 AM
#49
Originally Posted by ConnClark
you can hop up a diesel pretty good and get great performance out of them.
here is a Mercedes 300TD wagon thats been bumped up to 400+ HP . Both turbo charged and super charged.
Edit: its engine is 3 liters and is rated at 123 hp stock. Its engine red lines at 6K but I guess you can't really call it a red line because there is no red its just the end of the tach. Stock engine don't go past 5K though due to a governor in the injection pump.
video
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v2...=matskuu-1.flv
pics
http://www.kolumbus.fi/valtonen.moto...esel%20022.jpg
http://www.kolumbus.fi/valtonen.moto...kori%20012.jpg
http://www.kolumbus.fi/valtonen.moto...4%E4%20040.jpg
here is a Mercedes 300TD wagon thats been bumped up to 400+ HP . Both turbo charged and super charged.
Edit: its engine is 3 liters and is rated at 123 hp stock. Its engine red lines at 6K but I guess you can't really call it a red line because there is no red its just the end of the tach. Stock engine don't go past 5K though due to a governor in the injection pump.
video
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v2...=matskuu-1.flv
pics
http://www.kolumbus.fi/valtonen.moto...esel%20022.jpg
http://www.kolumbus.fi/valtonen.moto...kori%20012.jpg
http://www.kolumbus.fi/valtonen.moto...4%E4%20040.jpg
thats cool!
07-16-2007, 01:44 AM
#52
Originally Posted by BryanJohnson
the best part of hot rodding a diesel is:
detonation is your friend and and you run plain # 2 diesel, no race gas.
detonation is your friend and and you run plain # 2 diesel, no race gas.
the problems are the injectors though.
you cant just go and strap on a massive set that will let you run upto 1000bhp. or can you???thanks Chris.
07-16-2007, 09:29 AM
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well you have to be able to get your fuel to ignite, the more you do, the more power you make. even though its a diesel you can get a custom cam, do head work, injectors, multiple injection pumps, multiple turbos, propane, nitrous, and electronic tunning if its computer controlled.
as far as egt's go, they are the limiting factor.
as far as egt's go, they are the limiting factor.
07-17-2007, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnClark
The cool thing about hot rodding a diesel is you can usually get the same mileage as long as you keep your foot out of it.
A couple replies:
-- I get the same mpg with my truck as when it as stock, even though it's almost double the power.
-- Detonation is NOT your friend in a diesel. That said, a diesel can't really "pre" ignite because it's compressing only air- hence there's nothing to burn until the fuel is injected and that is what determines ignition timing (more accurately, injection timing) on a diesel. A diesel CAN experience detonation when something is injected to aid power-- notably propane and/or methanol. Either of these can auto-ignite and take out a headgasket with quickness.
-- Diesel "tuning" is really quite crude. It's mostly just three steps: 1) add fuel until EGTs get too hot, 2) add air until they are under control, 3) go back to step one.
I've seen EGTs kissing 1600 on my truck (ouch!) on a load-type dyno (superflow). On the DJ248, they never pass 1300.
As far as how you add fuel to a modern diesel, it's very similar to how you'd increase fueling on an LS engine: increase injector size, add duty cycle, or increase pressure to the injectors.
Most "add on" boxes increase duty cycle by holding the injector open longer. Some of them attempt to increase injector pressure by increasing the rail pressure (which feeds the injectors with fuel pressurized at up to 32,000 psi!!) by "fooling" the rail pressure sensor. It tells the ECM that rail pressure is low, and the ECM compensates by raising the pressure.
You can go pretty big on injectors and not get driveability issues, provided they are not crudely done. My EDM injectors are precisely matched, and add 150rwhp to an engine only rated 245 (crank) to begin with! Yet, the mpg is the same! HOwever, they will SMOKE if you get into the loud pedal too early because you have fuel coming in faster than the air delivery can catch up (turbo lag).
Conversely, cheaper extrude-honed injectors can dribble fuel and cost you both mpg and power, and they smoke a lot worse, too. This will show up as higher EGTs.
I went with big injectors in lieu of a duty cycle increase because the VP44 injection pump on my model of Cummins is fairly fragile. I'm hoping to add a mild duty cyle increase to get around 500rwhp worth of fuel. Then I'll just need a bigger turbo to deliver the air to burn all that.
Justin
07-18-2007, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by HOHN
A couple replies:
-- I get the same mpg with my truck as when it as stock, even though it's almost double the power.
-- Detonation is NOT your friend in a diesel. That said, a diesel can't really "pre" ignite because it's compressing only air- hence there's nothing to burn until the fuel is injected and that is what determines ignition timing (more accurately, injection timing) on a diesel. A diesel CAN experience detonation when something is injected to aid power-- notably propane and/or methanol. Either of these can auto-ignite and take out a headgasket with quickness.
-- Diesel "tuning" is really quite crude. It's mostly just three steps: 1) add fuel until EGTs get too hot, 2) add air until they are under control, 3) go back to step one.
I've seen EGTs kissing 1600 on my truck (ouch!) on a load-type dyno (superflow). On the DJ248, they never pass 1300.
As far as how you add fuel to a modern diesel, it's very similar to how you'd increase fueling on an LS engine: increase injector size, add duty cycle, or increase pressure to the injectors.
Most "add on" boxes increase duty cycle by holding the injector open longer. Some of them attempt to increase injector pressure by increasing the rail pressure (which feeds the injectors with fuel pressurized at up to 32,000 psi!!) by "fooling" the rail pressure sensor. It tells the ECM that rail pressure is low, and the ECM compensates by raising the pressure.
You can go pretty big on injectors and not get driveability issues, provided they are not crudely done. My EDM injectors are precisely matched, and add 150rwhp to an engine only rated 245 (crank) to begin with! Yet, the mpg is the same! HOwever, they will SMOKE if you get into the loud pedal too early because you have fuel coming in faster than the air delivery can catch up (turbo lag).
Conversely, cheaper extrude-honed injectors can dribble fuel and cost you both mpg and power, and they smoke a lot worse, too. This will show up as higher EGTs.
I went with big injectors in lieu of a duty cycle increase because the VP44 injection pump on my model of Cummins is fairly fragile. I'm hoping to add a mild duty cyle increase to get around 500rwhp worth of fuel. Then I'll just need a bigger turbo to deliver the air to burn all that.
Justin
-- I get the same mpg with my truck as when it as stock, even though it's almost double the power.
-- Detonation is NOT your friend in a diesel. That said, a diesel can't really "pre" ignite because it's compressing only air- hence there's nothing to burn until the fuel is injected and that is what determines ignition timing (more accurately, injection timing) on a diesel. A diesel CAN experience detonation when something is injected to aid power-- notably propane and/or methanol. Either of these can auto-ignite and take out a headgasket with quickness.
-- Diesel "tuning" is really quite crude. It's mostly just three steps: 1) add fuel until EGTs get too hot, 2) add air until they are under control, 3) go back to step one.
I've seen EGTs kissing 1600 on my truck (ouch!) on a load-type dyno (superflow). On the DJ248, they never pass 1300.
As far as how you add fuel to a modern diesel, it's very similar to how you'd increase fueling on an LS engine: increase injector size, add duty cycle, or increase pressure to the injectors.
Most "add on" boxes increase duty cycle by holding the injector open longer. Some of them attempt to increase injector pressure by increasing the rail pressure (which feeds the injectors with fuel pressurized at up to 32,000 psi!!) by "fooling" the rail pressure sensor. It tells the ECM that rail pressure is low, and the ECM compensates by raising the pressure.
You can go pretty big on injectors and not get driveability issues, provided they are not crudely done. My EDM injectors are precisely matched, and add 150rwhp to an engine only rated 245 (crank) to begin with! Yet, the mpg is the same! HOwever, they will SMOKE if you get into the loud pedal too early because you have fuel coming in faster than the air delivery can catch up (turbo lag).
Conversely, cheaper extrude-honed injectors can dribble fuel and cost you both mpg and power, and they smoke a lot worse, too. This will show up as higher EGTs.
I went with big injectors in lieu of a duty cycle increase because the VP44 injection pump on my model of Cummins is fairly fragile. I'm hoping to add a mild duty cyle increase to get around 500rwhp worth of fuel. Then I'll just need a bigger turbo to deliver the air to burn all that.
Justin
combustion is what i meant. thanks for pointing out my typo. also the fuel limit pressure valve cannot be fooled by any box on a 5.9 common rail cummins, approx. 26,500 psi is the limit. more than that, the spring loaded vavle will open and relieve the pressure. therefore you must install a pressure valve with greater limits. with injectors like yours, you have more precise ports that spread the fuel more evenly in the combustion chamber resulting in a better "burn" pattern and often resulting in better mileage than stock. you can go too big with an injector as well, too large will wash down a cyl, depending on driving.
Bryan Johnson
certified dodge diesel mechanic
07-27-2007, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by troopercar
Horsepower is a function of rpm. Do the math, what is more horsepower? 300lb-ft. @6000rpm or 1300lb-ft@ 3200rpm? Diesels don't accelerate like gas, hence the tranny must do the work of coupling a limited powerband range to accelerate the vehicle.
A constantly variable tranny would be best if it could be built strong and aggressive enough.
A constantly variable tranny would be best if it could be built strong and aggressive enough.
Hmm 342 hp @ 6000 rpm or 792 hp @ 3200 rpm. I don't know about you but I'd take 792hp over 342 hp any day. You should do the math before you make a silly example like that.
08-04-2007, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by gametech
As far as the Audi race engine goes, I would like to see it compete against a spark ignition motor with the same rules for displacement, boost, and weight.
Originally Posted by Gannet
They have a very poor power/weight ratio. They are only competitive at Le Mans because the rules give them huge advantages.
I also don't believe for one second the original poster is making 600hp with just a chip, as someone else has mentioned. Diesels are great for fuel economy, and pulling stuff, but gas motors still got them beat for speed purposes.
08-06-2007, 10:18 PM
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I also don't believe for one second the original poster is making 600hp with just a chip, as someone else has mentioned. Diesels are great for fuel economy, and pulling stuff, but gas motors still got them beat for speed purposes.[/QUOTE]
hey man, do some research. there are plenty of trucks out there, esp. HPCR cummins making over 500 rwhp with just a smarty. take a look over at dieseltruckresource.
hey man, do some research. there are plenty of trucks out there, esp. HPCR cummins making over 500 rwhp with just a smarty. take a look over at dieseltruckresource.
08-06-2007, 10:29 PM
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Link?
What does a newer Cummins diesel rev to? 3500rpm? 4000rpm. If we assume that the engine makes its peak power in the 3000-4000rpm range, that would mean that the diesel would have to be making in the area of over 800lb-ft of torque at that rpm, with just a chip. I assume a smarty is a chip, or computer retuning module? Sorry, I don't buy it.
What does a newer Cummins diesel rev to? 3500rpm? 4000rpm. If we assume that the engine makes its peak power in the 3000-4000rpm range, that would mean that the diesel would have to be making in the area of over 800lb-ft of torque at that rpm, with just a chip. I assume a smarty is a chip, or computer retuning module? Sorry, I don't buy it.