Ram Air Does Work...did Some Playing Around
1 in H2O = 0.036127 psi
04-02-2008, 03:11 PM
#22
i'm still a little confused on how you did your inches of water test.
Was there or is there a way to compare manifold pressure before and after?
Because at wide open throttle if you are not seeing a positive pressure inside the manifold then in my definition of ram air you're not getting any ramming and any increase in power you got was from freeing up an airflow restriction, or providing colder denser air.
any change in air velocity will result in a pressure change so to take a valid measurement I think you'll want to be well inside the intake, past the throttle blade. I think by having you're measurement before the throttle blade, you have a larger cross sectional area flowing into a lower cross sectional area of the throttle body and it's providing a misleading reading.
Was there or is there a way to compare manifold pressure before and after?
Because at wide open throttle if you are not seeing a positive pressure inside the manifold then in my definition of ram air you're not getting any ramming and any increase in power you got was from freeing up an airflow restriction, or providing colder denser air.
any change in air velocity will result in a pressure change so to take a valid measurement I think you'll want to be well inside the intake, past the throttle blade. I think by having you're measurement before the throttle blade, you have a larger cross sectional area flowing into a lower cross sectional area of the throttle body and it's providing a misleading reading.
04-03-2008, 11:54 AM
#23
ok that makes sense, your measurement was from the same point all the time, in the airlid. so correct me if i'm wrong: at w.o.t. your "ram air" setup saw higher pressure on the backside of the air filter in the airlid versus a lower pressure when running stock airflow design in front of the lid. So it would seem you freed up the airflow restriction in front of the lid, which then allowed the pressure in the lid at w.o.t. to equal atmospheric (or no vacuum) unlike the stock setup. So in this case, you are getting more air which should result in more power. I just don't like the term ram air, it's misleading. To me this falls simply under air intake, or cold air intake if you want to be fancy.
Ram air to me is a pressure increase which you never really had in the intake, you only got no vacuum or atmospheric pressure in the lid (and assuming no loss in the intake manifold as well).
you can also conclude that with the only change happening before the airbox that the air filter was not a significant restriction of air since you reached atmospheric pressure in the lid (i.e. no vacuum). Or, could the extra air pressure at 100mph be helping to overcome the air filter restriction?
You know you need to go back and take measurements with no air filter, with a K&N (both clean and 50k mile dirty), and a paper filter (both new and dirty)
and with your manometer setup, how do you calibrate it to know what atmospheric pressure is outside the car?
Ram air to me is a pressure increase which you never really had in the intake, you only got no vacuum or atmospheric pressure in the lid (and assuming no loss in the intake manifold as well).
you can also conclude that with the only change happening before the airbox that the air filter was not a significant restriction of air since you reached atmospheric pressure in the lid (i.e. no vacuum). Or, could the extra air pressure at 100mph be helping to overcome the air filter restriction?
You know you need to go back and take measurements with no air filter, with a K&N (both clean and 50k mile dirty), and a paper filter (both new and dirty)
and with your manometer setup, how do you calibrate it to know what atmospheric pressure is outside the car?
04-03-2008, 11:59 AM
#24
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My point is that while I applaud your testing and agree with your results, it's not such an incredible thing that everyone needs to run out and put a new hood on their car.
04-03-2008, 04:48 PM
#25
ok that makes sense, your measurement was from the same point all the time, in the airlid. so correct me if i'm wrong: at w.o.t. your "ram air" setup saw higher pressure on the backside of the air filter in the airlid versus a lower pressure when running stock airflow design in front of the lid. So it would seem you freed up the airflow restriction in front of the lid, which then allowed the pressure in the lid at w.o.t. to equal atmospheric (or no vacuum) unlike the stock setup. So in this case, you are getting more air which should result in more power. I just don't like the term ram air, it's misleading. To me this falls simply under air intake, or cold air intake if you want to be fancy.
Ram air to me is a pressure increase which you never really had in the intake, you only got no vacuum or atmospheric pressure in the lid (and assuming no loss in the intake manifold as well).
you can also conclude that with the only change happening before the airbox that the air filter was not a significant restriction of air since you reached atmospheric pressure in the lid (i.e. no vacuum). Or, could the extra air pressure at 100mph be helping to overcome the air filter restriction?
You know you need to go back and take measurements with no air filter, with a K&N (both clean and 50k mile dirty), and a paper filter (both new and dirty)
and with your manometer setup, how do you calibrate it to know what atmospheric pressure is outside the car?
Ram air to me is a pressure increase which you never really had in the intake, you only got no vacuum or atmospheric pressure in the lid (and assuming no loss in the intake manifold as well).
you can also conclude that with the only change happening before the airbox that the air filter was not a significant restriction of air since you reached atmospheric pressure in the lid (i.e. no vacuum). Or, could the extra air pressure at 100mph be helping to overcome the air filter restriction?
You know you need to go back and take measurements with no air filter, with a K&N (both clean and 50k mile dirty), and a paper filter (both new and dirty)
and with your manometer setup, how do you calibrate it to know what atmospheric pressure is outside the car?
again i gained higher pressure inside the lid under wot conditions increasing pressure with speed...not atm...above atm inside the lid
04-10-2008, 02:48 PM
#27
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even if 11inches = 0.1 second, you got 6 inches of water at 100mph.
Assuming we are talking about NA cars here, where most are in the 11-12 second range, most of the time is below 100mph in the 1/4 mile.
Even if you were at 100mph the whole time, that would be about .05 seconds. I'm guessing this drops your time about 0.02 seconds. Using the 100lbs = .1 second rule, that's like dropping 20lbs off your car. Wow.
Don't confuse "false theory" with "negligible."
False theory: Back pressure in the exhaust is desireable
False theory: blinking 3 times before your burnout will yield better 60's
Negligible: Farting before getting in the car will make you lighter and make you run a quicker quarter.
Assuming we are talking about NA cars here, where most are in the 11-12 second range, most of the time is below 100mph in the 1/4 mile.
Even if you were at 100mph the whole time, that would be about .05 seconds. I'm guessing this drops your time about 0.02 seconds. Using the 100lbs = .1 second rule, that's like dropping 20lbs off your car. Wow.
Don't confuse "false theory" with "negligible."
False theory: Back pressure in the exhaust is desireable
False theory: blinking 3 times before your burnout will yield better 60's
Negligible: Farting before getting in the car will make you lighter and make you run a quicker quarter.
04-11-2008, 02:09 PM
#28
so if that's the case, i can understand the conclusion that pressure increase in the lid = pressure increase in the intake and more air = more power,
but i would confirm the increase via the MAP sensor. Too much happening between your measurement and where it really matters, in the intake plenum and before the intake valve.
I would think if you MAP value at w.o.t. is greater with ram air setup vs. stock setup, and the MAP value is greater than atmospheric then you can make a solid conclusion.
04-13-2008, 04:11 PM
#29
i don't know, was too long ago when i read everything.
so if that's the case, i can understand the conclusion that pressure increase in the lid = pressure increase in the intake and more air = more power,
but i would confirm the increase via the MAP sensor. Too much happening between your measurement and where it really matters, in the intake plenum and before the intake valve.
I would think if you MAP value at w.o.t. is greater with ram air setup vs. stock setup, and the MAP value is greater than atmospheric then you can make a solid conclusion.
so if that's the case, i can understand the conclusion that pressure increase in the lid = pressure increase in the intake and more air = more power,
but i would confirm the increase via the MAP sensor. Too much happening between your measurement and where it really matters, in the intake plenum and before the intake valve.
I would think if you MAP value at w.o.t. is greater with ram air setup vs. stock setup, and the MAP value is greater than atmospheric then you can make a solid conclusion.
i will bet that the ram air helps more than 1.5mph...anyone willing to wager...
04-13-2008, 04:12 PM
#30
sorry buddy but you are wrong it helps more than .02 or 2 hp...
...trust me i will do back to back track times and record the whole thing...are you willing to make a wager on how much you think this intake helps...i am will to bet it help 15rwhp or 1.5mph over stock setup or more...
...trust me i will do back to back track times and record the whole thing...are you willing to make a wager on how much you think this intake helps...i am will to bet it help 15rwhp or 1.5mph over stock setup or more...even if 11inches = 0.1 second, you got 6 inches of water at 100mph.
Assuming we are talking about NA cars here, where most are in the 11-12 second range, most of the time is below 100mph in the 1/4 mile.
Even if you were at 100mph the whole time, that would be about .05 seconds. I'm guessing this drops your time about 0.02 seconds. Using the 100lbs = .1 second rule, that's like dropping 20lbs off your car. Wow.
Don't confuse "false theory" with "negligible."
False theory: Back pressure in the exhaust is desireable
False theory: blinking 3 times before your burnout will yield better 60's
Negligible: Farting before getting in the car will make you lighter and make you run a quicker quarter.
Assuming we are talking about NA cars here, where most are in the 11-12 second range, most of the time is below 100mph in the 1/4 mile.
Even if you were at 100mph the whole time, that would be about .05 seconds. I'm guessing this drops your time about 0.02 seconds. Using the 100lbs = .1 second rule, that's like dropping 20lbs off your car. Wow.
Don't confuse "false theory" with "negligible."
False theory: Back pressure in the exhaust is desireable
False theory: blinking 3 times before your burnout will yield better 60's
Negligible: Farting before getting in the car will make you lighter and make you run a quicker quarter.
05-19-2008, 03:23 PM
#31
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sorry buddy but you are wrong it helps more than .02 or 2 hp......trust me i will do back to back track times and record the whole thing...are you willing to make a wager on how much you think this intake helps...i am will to bet it help 15rwhp or 1.5mph over stock setup or more...
...trust me i will do back to back track times and record the whole thing...are you willing to make a wager on how much you think this intake helps...i am will to bet it help 15rwhp or 1.5mph over stock setup or more...Question
Test
Data
analyze data
apply to theory
conclusion
Question: Does ram air do much?
Test: Check
Data: Check
Analyze data: See posts above
Apply to theory: Appears that under optimal conditions, it won't do much
Conclusion: Data is correct, but only when it doesn't hurt my feelings. Therefore, ram air is awesomez!!!!!!
So what you're saying is all this data gathered is correct if when we want to argue theory, except when it comes to the result, in which case it's all wrong.
05-20-2008, 04:51 PM
#33
ok put it this way i have .4 psi increase inside of my lid after the filter over stock...how much does it help a boosted application...
going from say 6psi to 6.4psi for half of the dragstrip...you are telling me that isnt worth anything...i know it is a rough metaphor but you get the idea...
going from say 6psi to 6.4psi for half of the dragstrip...you are telling me that isnt worth anything...i know it is a rough metaphor but you get the idea...
05-21-2008, 10:50 AM
#34
I have the BGRA kit, drilled out hood baffels, and a aftermarket air filter.
Car is a M6 and always ran a 13.3 @107. Installed the kit, now car runs......
13.1 @109.XX
No headers,DD sub frame connectors,Tsp air lid,slp maf,bmr lca(all on car befor and after)
Car is a M6 and always ran a 13.3 @107. Installed the kit, now car runs......
13.1 @109.XX
No headers,DD sub frame connectors,Tsp air lid,slp maf,bmr lca(all on car befor and after)
05-21-2008, 10:46 PM
#36
The "Ram air" setups that seal off the front of the air box and run up underneath are bullshit, and marketing ploys at best. I've tested them both, back to back at the track. Same car, same day. Done this on a few cars actually. Never seen a gain over a FRA mod w/ a lid. I actually lost 2 mph on a personal vehicle once using a "Ram air" that sealed off the air box. And putting anything in front of the rad./condenser is not a good idea either. Every car I've ever installed a Ram air kit on ram at least 5-8 degrees hotter.
The most efficient way to get air into the air box is NOT to seal off the damn thing. Open up the bottom of the air box, take out all those bullshit plastic panels in front of the condenser, swiss cheese the front of the air box so more air can travel into the box from the front, and call it a day.
The only true "Ram Air" is having air rammed directly into the hood, with an open air element behind it receiving the air. IE: WS6 hood with no baffles.
The most efficient way to get air into the air box is NOT to seal off the damn thing. Open up the bottom of the air box, take out all those bullshit plastic panels in front of the condenser, swiss cheese the front of the air box so more air can travel into the box from the front, and call it a day.
The only true "Ram Air" is having air rammed directly into the hood, with an open air element behind it receiving the air. IE: WS6 hood with no baffles.
05-22-2008, 06:31 AM
#37
Sorry but how do you explain my positive 6in H20 after the air filter then...it is not bullshit and if you tested it obviously uoi did something wrong or my design is that much superior to FTRA...I mean 11in H20 over a stock setup under WOT is not eather shattering but .4psi is not that bad...
Do i have to do a DRAGSTRIP test tomorrow to show the difference between stock conditions and my ram air...
lets start a poll maybe to end all this doubting...if i am wrong i will be happy to still show the results but i got a feeling i am not...
Do i have to do a DRAGSTRIP test tomorrow to show the difference between stock conditions and my ram air...
lets start a poll maybe to end all this doubting...if i am wrong i will be happy to still show the results but i got a feeling i am not...
The "Ram air" setups that seal off the front of the air box and run up underneath are bullshit, and marketing ploys at best. I've tested them both, back to back at the track. Same car, same day. Done this on a few cars actually. Never seen a gain over a FRA mod w/ a lid. I actually lost 2 mph on a personal vehicle once using a "Ram air" that sealed off the air box. And putting anything in front of the rad./condenser is not a good idea either. Every car I've ever installed a Ram air kit on ram at least 5-8 degrees hotter.
The most efficient way to get air into the air box is NOT to seal off the damn thing. Open up the bottom of the air box, take out all those bullshit plastic panels in front of the condenser, swiss cheese the front of the air box so more air can travel into the box from the front, and call it a day.
The only true "Ram Air" is having air rammed directly into the hood, with an open air element behind it receiving the air. IE: WS6 hood with no baffles.
The most efficient way to get air into the air box is NOT to seal off the damn thing. Open up the bottom of the air box, take out all those bullshit plastic panels in front of the condenser, swiss cheese the front of the air box so more air can travel into the box from the front, and call it a day.
The only true "Ram Air" is having air rammed directly into the hood, with an open air element behind it receiving the air. IE: WS6 hood with no baffles.
05-22-2008, 08:29 AM
#38
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The "Ram air" setups that seal off the front of the air box and run up underneath are bullshit, and marketing ploys at best. I've tested them both, back to back at the track. Same car, same day. Done this on a few cars actually. Never seen a gain over a FRA mod w/ a lid. I actually lost 2 mph on a personal vehicle once using a "Ram air" that sealed off the air box. And putting anything in front of the rad./condenser is not a good idea either. Every car I've ever installed a Ram air kit on ram at least 5-8 degrees hotter.
The most efficient way to get air into the air box is NOT to seal off the damn thing. Open up the bottom of the air box, take out all those bullshit plastic panels in front of the condenser, swiss cheese the front of the air box so more air can travel into the box from the front, and call it a day.
The only true "Ram Air" is having air rammed directly into the hood, with an open air element behind it receiving the air. IE: WS6 hood with no baffles.
The most efficient way to get air into the air box is NOT to seal off the damn thing. Open up the bottom of the air box, take out all those bullshit plastic panels in front of the condenser, swiss cheese the front of the air box so more air can travel into the box from the front, and call it a day.
The only true "Ram Air" is having air rammed directly into the hood, with an open air element behind it receiving the air. IE: WS6 hood with no baffles.
How about rammed into the bumper holes? Probably sees alot of pressure right in the front on the car on the flattest part of the whole car.
05-22-2008, 09:37 AM
#39
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The whole "ram air" is a no brainer. Simply and logically explained .. a neg. pressure behind the filter while the motor is running indicates the motor is demanding more air than what's available (hence, the vacuum). When there's more air available than what's demanded by the motor, then a + pressure will be seen. So, if you have a neg. pressure, at all, in front of the throttle blade .. your motor is not making as much power as it would otherwise (w/ a + pressure). 0 (equal to atmosphere) pressure would indicatate absolute balance of availability and demand. If the OP is seeing a + just behind the filter .. his car is making more power than if he seen a - .. pure and simple.
No need for fancy statistics and $50 words to justify this, whether he measured in H20 or Hg, metric or standard ... geeshh
The OP's test's look good to me. No doubt in my mind, he'll see .1+ ET / 1+ mph gain with his ram air testing. However, I also agree with Damian .. I wouldn't block the critical cooling air flowing over/through the radiator. Get a nice ram air hood or duct it from another area. Like what was already mentioned .. if you already have the WS6 hood .. just take the baffles out
No need for fancy statistics and $50 words to justify this, whether he measured in H20 or Hg, metric or standard ... geeshh
The OP's test's look good to me. No doubt in my mind, he'll see .1+ ET / 1+ mph gain with his ram air testing. However, I also agree with Damian .. I wouldn't block the critical cooling air flowing over/through the radiator. Get a nice ram air hood or duct it from another area. Like what was already mentioned .. if you already have the WS6 hood .. just take the baffles out
05-22-2008, 11:20 AM
#40
Exactly...very clear response...also i have not seen high high coolant temps or i would be rerouting...i also have an accurate guage for both oil and coolant...autometer C2s...
The whole "ram air" is a no brainer. Simply and logically explained .. a neg. pressure behind the filter while the motor is running indicates the motor is demanding more air than what's available (hence, the vacuum). When there's more air available than what's demanded by the motor, then a + pressure will be seen. So, if you have a neg. pressure, at all, in front of the throttle blade .. your motor is not making as much power as it would otherwise (w/ a + pressure). 0 (equal to atmosphere) pressure would indicatate absolute balance of availability and demand. If the OP is seeing a + just behind the filter .. his car is making more power than if he seen a - .. pure and simple.
No need for fancy statistics and $50 words to justify this, whether he measured in H20 or Hg, metric or standard ... geeshh
The OP's test's look good to me. No doubt in my mind, he'll see .1+ ET / 1+ mph gain with his ram air testing. However, I also agree with Damian .. I wouldn't block the critical cooling air flowing over/through the radiator. Get a nice ram air hood or duct it from another area. Like what was already mentioned .. if you already have the WS6 hood .. just take the baffles out
No need for fancy statistics and $50 words to justify this, whether he measured in H20 or Hg, metric or standard ... geeshh
The OP's test's look good to me. No doubt in my mind, he'll see .1+ ET / 1+ mph gain with his ram air testing. However, I also agree with Damian .. I wouldn't block the critical cooling air flowing over/through the radiator. Get a nice ram air hood or duct it from another area. Like what was already mentioned .. if you already have the WS6 hood .. just take the baffles out