TCI 6x anyone use one?
05-02-2011, 12:35 PM
#21
I'll agree with the 6L80/90 being weak when stock... they hold up to somewhat decent power levels if you leave all the torque management in it... but they really only hold up to 500ish without any torque management.. and even that is the high side of the scale oce you take out torque management.
05-02-2011, 12:48 PM
#22
the 6x applies in the same way as the 4L80... with the exception that it is applying the overdrive gear in 1st, and in 2nd... 3rd and 4th are the same as a 4L80
so you get this in the 6x
1= 1
2= 1+Overdrive
3= 2
4= 2+Overdrive
5= 3
6= 4
and as my understanding is, it has 7 clutches as compared to the 6 that Jake mentioned earlier.
the gears in the 6x have also been beefed up so that they are not weaker from the "less material factor" as the gear rations go up.
they have a custom set of gears... not just a custom set of values for gears.
also, the 6x can skip gears, it doesnt have to go one gear to another to shift...(all in the programming of advanced parameters in the PCS/Redbox controller)
It can shift from 6th down into 2nd without having to go 6-5-4-3-2... and it does it Dam Fast.. faster than any person can manually shift
so you get this in the 6x
1= 1
2= 1+Overdrive
3= 2
4= 2+Overdrive
5= 3
6= 4
and as my understanding is, it has 7 clutches as compared to the 6 that Jake mentioned earlier.
the gears in the 6x have also been beefed up so that they are not weaker from the "less material factor" as the gear rations go up.
they have a custom set of gears... not just a custom set of values for gears.
also, the 6x can skip gears, it doesnt have to go one gear to another to shift...(all in the programming of advanced parameters in the PCS/Redbox controller)
It can shift from 6th down into 2nd without having to go 6-5-4-3-2... and it does it Dam Fast.. faster than any person can manually shift
You're wrong.
A 6x has the same clutch packs as a 4L80E.
It simply uses the OD pack on top of each gear.
ANYTIME you use a deeper ratio gearset in a 4L80E (or Th400) you weaken the gearset.
Besides the fact that the pinions are slightly smaller, the biggest issues is the ring gear on the rear planet has to be made thinner and/or the rear planet carrier.
This is why the guy who did the development work on the low gearsets (John Kilgore) doesn't recommend them for big power applications.
You have a defined amount of space to use (within the case, and usually within the stock planet carrier) and you must make the parts fit within that space, a larger diameter ring gear (you do understand gear ratios and how they are obtained right?), larger diameter sun gear, and smaller pinions are made to fit within these constraints.
"Simple Physics" here makes it obvious the parts will be weaker when made from the same materials.
Keep in mind I'm a TCI dealer so I know their gearsets...
This is yet another reason I feel 850 HP is the upper limit of the 6x.
Now for the "engineering" lesson.
Asynchronous means the shifts do not have to be timed. A clutch simply has to apply, it causes a sprag to over-run.
Synchronous means that when a clutch applies another must release. When this occurs, the timing of the apply and release is critical. Not only is it critical but there are some losses involved and some heat developed.
In a perfect world, the applying clutch could come on, the disengaging clutch would come off, both instantly, there would be no overlap and no cut-loose.
However that's "simple physics" impossible. We may be measuring milliseconds, but there is always one or the other.
Overlap is also known as tie-up or bind-up. It's a point in time where both clutches are applied enough that there is some drag on each. Basically a transbrake effect of the trans being in two gears at once. It heppens very quickly, but builders who have been doing this for awhile or have done design work, have felt a tie-up. It can be severe and cause failure quick.
Cut-loose is the other end of the spectrum. It is when the disengaging clutch comes off quicker than the applying clutch comes on. This feels like a "flare".
700-R4/4L60E users have felt it when the 3-4 clutches start to fail, or it may have been the cause of their failed clutches.
This is actually a momentary return to low gear on those units. 2nd gear band releases before the 3-4's apply, and for a second you are back in low gear, then the 3-4 clutches come on and you're in 3rd.
This kills clutches quick because they are shifting a WIDe ratio, from 1st to 3rd. Lots of heat developed. Simple physics. The clutches die from the heat.
A 6x trans is synchronous from 1-2 (1 over) since they aren't using the over-run clutches.
from 2nd to 3rd however, the OD clutches must release, and the intermediates come on. This must be timed.
The shift from 3rd to 4th, is again asynchronous, this is simply the OD clyutches coming on again. It overruns the OD sprag.
4th-5th, synchronous, OD's must release, 3rd clutches come on for 5th (stock 80E 3rd).
5-6th is normal 4L80E 3rd to 4th. Asynchronous shift. But the Od clutches just had to apply AGAIN. The 3rd time in what, 12 seconds.
That's a lot of heat for one clutch pack and I'm pretty sure even the non-mechanically inclined members can understand the "simple physics" of that.
05-02-2011, 03:55 PM
#23
4L60E = 163lb
4L65E/4L70E = 195lb
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en...0,MD6,MK2).pdf
4L80E= 255lb
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en...0(MT1,MN8).pdf
6L80E = 227lb
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en...c_6L80_MYC.xls
4L65E/4L70E = 195lb
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en...0,MD6,MK2).pdf
4L80E= 255lb
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en...0(MT1,MN8).pdf
6L80E = 227lb
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en...c_6L80_MYC.xls
They are not asynchronous. They are absolutely synchronized, every shift requires a clutch to be released and another engaged, unlike a TH400 or 4L80E. This is why they are having hell keeping them alive in big power applications and the tune IS all so critical. Wonder why those who specialize int he 6L units still recommend a 4L80E for big power?
I'll agree with the 6L80/90 being weak when stock... they hold up to somewhat decent power levels if you leave all the torque management in it... but they really only hold up to 500ish without any torque management.. and even that is the high side of the scale oce you take out torque management.
I believe I already addressed why someone who deals with would 6L's would recommend a 4L80. It's a new trans compared to one that's been around since forever. It's the same reason the same people recommend a 4L80 over a TCI 6x....lack of knowledge. If you'll note the #1 reason everyone says get an XYZ is because human tendencies are to go for what you know. The WHY is the major question to ask and not lose site of.
Circle D is and has been making 6L80/90's to hold up behind 750 WHP. Hell a factory 6L90 holds behind worked CTS-V's.
05-02-2011, 06:29 PM
#24
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...60e-weigh.html
I believe I already addressed why someone who deals with would 6L's would recommend a 4L80. It's a new trans compared to one that's been around since forever. It's the same reason the same people recommend a 4L80 over a TCI 6x....lack of knowledge. If you'll note the #1 reason everyone says get an XYZ is because human tendencies are to go for what you know. The WHY is the major question to ask and not lose site of.
Circle D is and has been making 6L80/90's to hold up behind 750 WHP. Hell a factory 6L90 holds behind worked CTS-V's.
I believe I already addressed why someone who deals with would 6L's would recommend a 4L80. It's a new trans compared to one that's been around since forever. It's the same reason the same people recommend a 4L80 over a TCI 6x....lack of knowledge. If you'll note the #1 reason everyone says get an XYZ is because human tendencies are to go for what you know. The WHY is the major question to ask and not lose site of.
Circle D is and has been making 6L80/90's to hold up behind 750 WHP. Hell a factory 6L90 holds behind worked CTS-V's.
You're posting weights you got from the internet.
How about you go get some real first hand knowledge and weigh the units yourself.
A 4L80E doesn't weigh 255 lbs unless that is with the STOCK 14" converter which won't be used in a performance application.
Knowledge comes from actually dealing with the stuff everyday, not being a customer once.
I'm all for new technology and my point isn't to downplay the 6x, just to keep it honest.
If anybody has ran a 6x with the same engine and converter combo against a 4L80E, I would love to see the times posted.
05-02-2011, 07:04 PM
#25
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One reason I chose Jake over others......he knows his ****
If you are going to argue design features, you better be on your game.
You're wrong.
A 6x has the same clutch packs as a 4L80E.
It simply uses the OD pack on top of each gear.
ANYTIME you use a deeper ratio gearset in a 4L80E (or Th400) you weaken the gearset.
Besides the fact that the pinions are slightly smaller, the biggest issues is the ring gear on the rear planet has to be made thinner and/or the rear planet carrier.
This is why the guy who did the development work on the low gearsets (John Kilgore) doesn't recommend them for big power applications.
You have a defined amount of space to use (within the case, and usually within the stock planet carrier) and you must make the parts fit within that space, a larger diameter ring gear (you do understand gear ratios and how they are obtained right?), larger diameter sun gear, and smaller pinions are made to fit within these constraints.
"Simple Physics" here makes it obvious the parts will be weaker when made from the same materials.
Keep in mind I'm a TCI dealer so I know their gearsets...
This is yet another reason I feel 850 HP is the upper limit of the 6x.
Now for the "engineering" lesson.
Asynchronous means the shifts do not have to be timed. A clutch simply has to apply, it causes a sprag to over-run.
Synchronous means that when a clutch applies another must release. When this occurs, the timing of the apply and release is critical. Not only is it critical but there are some losses involved and some heat developed.
In a perfect world, the applying clutch could come on, the disengaging clutch would come off, both instantly, there would be no overlap and no cut-loose.
However that's "simple physics" impossible. We may be measuring milliseconds, but there is always one or the other.
Overlap is also known as tie-up or bind-up. It's a point in time where both clutches are applied enough that there is some drag on each. Basically a transbrake effect of the trans being in two gears at once. It heppens very quickly, but builders who have been doing this for awhile or have done design work, have felt a tie-up. It can be severe and cause failure quick.
Cut-loose is the other end of the spectrum. It is when the disengaging clutch comes off quicker than the applying clutch comes on. This feels like a "flare".
700-R4/4L60E users have felt it when the 3-4 clutches start to fail, or it may have been the cause of their failed clutches.
This is actually a momentary return to low gear on those units. 2nd gear band releases before the 3-4's apply, and for a second you are back in low gear, then the 3-4 clutches come on and you're in 3rd.
This kills clutches quick because they are shifting a WIDe ratio, from 1st to 3rd. Lots of heat developed. Simple physics. The clutches die from the heat.
A 6x trans is synchronous from 1-2 (1 over) since they aren't using the over-run clutches.
from 2nd to 3rd however, the OD clutches must release, and the intermediates come on. This must be timed.
The shift from 3rd to 4th, is again asynchronous, this is simply the OD clyutches coming on again. It overruns the OD sprag.
4th-5th, synchronous, OD's must release, 3rd clutches come on for 5th (stock 80E 3rd).
5-6th is normal 4L80E 3rd to 4th. Asynchronous shift. But the Od clutches just had to apply AGAIN. The 3rd time in what, 12 seconds.
That's a lot of heat for one clutch pack and I'm pretty sure even the non-mechanically inclined members can understand the "simple physics" of that.
You're wrong.
A 6x has the same clutch packs as a 4L80E.
It simply uses the OD pack on top of each gear.
ANYTIME you use a deeper ratio gearset in a 4L80E (or Th400) you weaken the gearset.
Besides the fact that the pinions are slightly smaller, the biggest issues is the ring gear on the rear planet has to be made thinner and/or the rear planet carrier.
This is why the guy who did the development work on the low gearsets (John Kilgore) doesn't recommend them for big power applications.
You have a defined amount of space to use (within the case, and usually within the stock planet carrier) and you must make the parts fit within that space, a larger diameter ring gear (you do understand gear ratios and how they are obtained right?), larger diameter sun gear, and smaller pinions are made to fit within these constraints.
"Simple Physics" here makes it obvious the parts will be weaker when made from the same materials.
Keep in mind I'm a TCI dealer so I know their gearsets...
This is yet another reason I feel 850 HP is the upper limit of the 6x.
Now for the "engineering" lesson.
Asynchronous means the shifts do not have to be timed. A clutch simply has to apply, it causes a sprag to over-run.
Synchronous means that when a clutch applies another must release. When this occurs, the timing of the apply and release is critical. Not only is it critical but there are some losses involved and some heat developed.
In a perfect world, the applying clutch could come on, the disengaging clutch would come off, both instantly, there would be no overlap and no cut-loose.
However that's "simple physics" impossible. We may be measuring milliseconds, but there is always one or the other.
Overlap is also known as tie-up or bind-up. It's a point in time where both clutches are applied enough that there is some drag on each. Basically a transbrake effect of the trans being in two gears at once. It heppens very quickly, but builders who have been doing this for awhile or have done design work, have felt a tie-up. It can be severe and cause failure quick.
Cut-loose is the other end of the spectrum. It is when the disengaging clutch comes off quicker than the applying clutch comes on. This feels like a "flare".
700-R4/4L60E users have felt it when the 3-4 clutches start to fail, or it may have been the cause of their failed clutches.
This is actually a momentary return to low gear on those units. 2nd gear band releases before the 3-4's apply, and for a second you are back in low gear, then the 3-4 clutches come on and you're in 3rd.
This kills clutches quick because they are shifting a WIDe ratio, from 1st to 3rd. Lots of heat developed. Simple physics. The clutches die from the heat.
A 6x trans is synchronous from 1-2 (1 over) since they aren't using the over-run clutches.
from 2nd to 3rd however, the OD clutches must release, and the intermediates come on. This must be timed.
The shift from 3rd to 4th, is again asynchronous, this is simply the OD clyutches coming on again. It overruns the OD sprag.
4th-5th, synchronous, OD's must release, 3rd clutches come on for 5th (stock 80E 3rd).
5-6th is normal 4L80E 3rd to 4th. Asynchronous shift. But the Od clutches just had to apply AGAIN. The 3rd time in what, 12 seconds.
That's a lot of heat for one clutch pack and I'm pretty sure even the non-mechanically inclined members can understand the "simple physics" of that.
05-02-2011, 07:51 PM
#26
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https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...60e-weigh.html
I believe I already addressed why someone who deals with would 6L's would recommend a 4L80. It's a new trans compared to one that's been around since forever. It's the same reason the same people recommend a 4L80 over a TCI 6x....lack of knowledge. If you'll note the #1 reason everyone says get an XYZ is because human tendencies are to go for what you know. The WHY is the major question to ask and not lose site of.
Circle D is and has been making 6L80/90's to hold up behind 750 WHP. Hell a factory 6L90 holds behind worked CTS-V's.
I believe I already addressed why someone who deals with would 6L's would recommend a 4L80. It's a new trans compared to one that's been around since forever. It's the same reason the same people recommend a 4L80 over a TCI 6x....lack of knowledge. If you'll note the #1 reason everyone says get an XYZ is because human tendencies are to go for what you know. The WHY is the major question to ask and not lose site of.
Circle D is and has been making 6L80/90's to hold up behind 750 WHP. Hell a factory 6L90 holds behind worked CTS-V's.
Nice to see you defending my other 6 Speed transmission in my other but not a competition car...
I'll hold off on competing with it until I can find a builder that has been able to build a 6L that can hold up just to the 505 HP engine in it....
Think I remembering Circle D is still trying to get one to hold up. Think they are just doing in house testing, no strip testing at this time due to still experiencing failures. May have changed since I heard that about 3 months ago.Anyway, your links didn't work for me, so I paid a visit to GM Power train. Found the weight you quoted is "wet with 300mm converter".
Also found GM is smarter than I thought. They use different 1-6 gear ratios depending on application. Not sure which 1st-6th gear ratios my 2008 truck application has. I know for 2010 & up they would be 4.0, 2.4, 1.5, 1.2, 0.90, & 0.70. I've always assumed they were same as the Corvette, 4.03, 2.36, 1.53, 1.15, 0.85 & 0.67.
Now my 4th gear in the 6L will have a final drive ratio in 4th gear of 3.68 instead of 3.54 with it's rear end gear ratio of 3.07.
Course my 6x car will still be saddled at strip with a 4.17 4th gear ratio with it's 3.54 rear end gear ratio.
Yet just think, if I had a 4L80 in either car, I would need a 4.17 rear gear set with it's 1.00 3rd gear ratio just to match the mechanical advantage of the 6X with a 3.54 rear end gear ratio with it's 1.18 4th gear ratio.
4L80 would up my RPM in OD big time with 4.17 rear ratio, hurting gas mileage. But it's higher 1st gear ratio and wider spread between 1st & 2nd ratios are not as efficient in getting weight moving at low speed and keeping engine in it's power band hurts gas mileage as well and thats if both had the same 3.54 rear end ratio. That's why GM and other car manufactures have moved to 6 or more gears to get weight moving while keeping it moving in city driving with less effort by keeping engine in it's power band.
Bottom line, for most people, the world does not revolve around a dedicated drag car's needs.
Why not go with a transmission that is a better compromise for strip and street use. Where even a 3.42 rear end with a 1.18 4th gear will give you a 4.03 ratio for strip use, yet still give you a 2.565 OD ratio for cruising down the highway.
No A4 transmission can give you the non OD gear to OD gear ratios spread that either A6 transmission can.
2011 Hydra-Matic 6L80 Transmission ( MYC ) 1-Mar-10 Type: Six speed RWD / AWD, electronically controlled automatic overdrive transmission with torque converter clutch. Clutch-to-clutch architecture, with integral Electro / Hydraulic Controls Module
Maximum engine power: 469 bhp ( 349 kW )
Maximum engine torque: 439 lb-ft ( 595 Nm )
Maximum gearbox torque: 664 lb-ft ( 900 Nm )
Gear ratios: MYC
First: 4.0
Second: 2.4
Third: 1.5
Fourth: 1.2
Fifth: 0.9
Sixth: 0.7
Reverse: 3.1 Maximum shift speed 6500 rpm
Maximum Validated Weights: ( Target ) GVW: 8600 lb ( 3901 kg ), GCVW: 14000 lb ( 6350 kg )
7-position quadrant: P, R, N, D, X, X, X ( X = available calibratable range position )
Case description: 3-piece ( Bell, main, extension )
Case material: die cast aluminum
Shift pattern: (2) Three-way on/off solenoids
Shift quality: Five variable bleed solenoid
Torque converter clutch: Variable Bleed Solenoid ECCC
Converter size: 300mm ( reference )
Fluid type: DEXRON® VI
Fluid capacity: w/ 258 & 300mm converter 258mm: 9.7L ( 8.22kg ), 300mm: 11.9L ( 10.1kg )
Transmission weight: w/ 258 & 300mm converter 258mm: Wet: 94-96kg ( 207-211lb )
300mm: Wet: 102-104kg ( 225-229lb )
Pressure taps available: line pressure
Assembly Site: GMPT Toledo, OH
GMPT Silao, MX
Available Control Features: Multiple Shift Patterns ( Selectable)
Driver Shift Control ( Tap Up / Tap Down )
Enhanced Performance Algorithm Shifting ( PAS )
Selectable Tow / Haul Mode
Engine Torque Management On All Shifts
Altitude and Temperature Compensation
Adaptive Shift Time
Neutral Idle
Reverse Lockout
Automatic Grade Braking
Additional Features: OBDII / EOBD
Integral Electro/Hydraulic Controls Module ( Tehcm )
Control Interface Protocol - GMLAN
2010 Hydra-Matic 6L80 Transmission ( MYC ) 06/05/2009 Type: Six speed RWD / AWD, electronically controlled automatic overdrive transmission with torque converter clutch. Clutch-to-clutch architecture, with integral Electro / Hydraulic Controls Module
Maximum engine power: 469 bhp ( 349 kW )
Maximum engine torque: 439 lb-ft ( 595 Nm )
Maximum gearbox torque: 664 lb-ft ( 900 Nm )
Gear ratios: MYC
First: 4.03
Second: 2.36
Third: 1.53
Fourth: 1.15
Fifth: 0.85
Sixth: 0.67
Reverse: -3.06
Last edited by poorhousenext; 05-03-2011 at 08:39 AM.
05-22-2013, 04:11 PM
#27
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I've had a 6x for a couple years, put no more than 5000 miles on it and its been rebuilt twice so far, the second time they couldnt tell me what caused it to fail. Im waiting for it to come back and we'll sew how long this rebuild lasts. Shipping and install/removal was all on me too... Needless to say I'm less than impressed.
Frags in the pan
Edit: I've used it on one track day, the rest is daily driving.
Frags in the pan
Edit: I've used it on one track day, the rest is daily driving.
05-23-2013, 09:32 AM
#28
Moderator
I would just like to add that there is another vendor (perhaps the originator) for the valve body that turns any 4l80e into a 6 speed:
http://www.powertraincontrolsolution...ed-Valve-Body/
The list price for this valve body is $600; you would also need their TCM-2000 controller for $750.
So it seem that you could have Jake build you a good 4L80E, add the $600 valve body, the $750 controller and you could have both a stronger and less expensive 6x than what TCI is offering.
My contact at PCS (Powertrain Control Solutions) tells me that while the PCS and TCI 6x valve bodies share some history, PCS has additional features in their valve body, especially related to better engine braking.
http://www.powertraincontrolsolution...ed-Valve-Body/
The list price for this valve body is $600; you would also need their TCM-2000 controller for $750.
So it seem that you could have Jake build you a good 4L80E, add the $600 valve body, the $750 controller and you could have both a stronger and less expensive 6x than what TCI is offering.
My contact at PCS (Powertrain Control Solutions) tells me that while the PCS and TCI 6x valve bodies share some history, PCS has additional features in their valve body, especially related to better engine braking.
05-12-2014, 01:47 PM
#32
Moderator
Here are all the threads on the TCI, PCS, PATC 6-speed 4L80E and the 6L80E:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...six-speed.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...nsmission.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...lp-please.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...l80e-mods.html
And a very long and detailed thread on 6 speeds:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...r-6l80e-4.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...six-speed.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...nsmission.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...lp-please.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...l80e-mods.html
And a very long and detailed thread on 6 speeds:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...r-6l80e-4.html
08-28-2023, 12:01 AM
#33
Wow, well I know this is a old post, and yep this is what old posts are for instead of always asking questions before doing any research..so I read a large portion of this thread, not close to all..so now it’s what 12 almost 13 yrs later, and I’m possibly going to buy a t56 car, which I can’t drive unless I get hand controls mixed with motor cycle parts !which I’ve never used before,(as very rare as well) only hand controls with a automatic , as I’m a DVET para t-3..
I’ve wanted another hotrod since I sold my ZL1 back in 2015..& regretted it everyday..
besides the fact that the price seems to of jumped some crazy 25% to close to 9k which was what I paid for my LSX454 when it first came out yrs back for a trans am I had once too, and have the same regret..
so has the 6x gotten any better , ? Is it’s track recorded improved ,as well as improving and updating it considering the crazy A$$ price it now Carry’s which I must say doesn’t seem fair , or worth it unless it’s become bulletproof, reliable,and has better Tunning quality too, ? As I don’t want neck snapping shifts at my age or condition unless I ask for it ..so any information would be appreciated thank you ..,
I’ve wanted another hotrod since I sold my ZL1 back in 2015..& regretted it everyday..
besides the fact that the price seems to of jumped some crazy 25% to close to 9k which was what I paid for my LSX454 when it first came out yrs back for a trans am I had once too, and have the same regret..
so has the 6x gotten any better , ? Is it’s track recorded improved ,as well as improving and updating it considering the crazy A$$ price it now Carry’s which I must say doesn’t seem fair , or worth it unless it’s become bulletproof, reliable,and has better Tunning quality too, ? As I don’t want neck snapping shifts at my age or condition unless I ask for it ..so any information would be appreciated thank you ..,
08-28-2023, 09:47 AM
#34
TECH Junkie
If you want a 6 speed...get a 6l80e and controller
The 6 speed 4l80e is a "juice not worth the squeeze" type deal.
The 6 speed 4l80e is a "juice not worth the squeeze" type deal.
08-28-2023, 11:46 AM
#35
08-28-2023, 01:20 PM
#36
TECH Junkie
With a Sawzall and a big enough hammer, everything fits.
To be fair a 4l80e doesn't exactly bolt right in either without hammering and cutting.
To be fair a 4l80e doesn't exactly bolt right in either without hammering and cutting.
