horsepower difference between 4l60e and 700r4
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horsepower difference between 4l60e and 700r4 i am planning on building an ls s10and am prob gonna use a 700r4 trans. is there any power loss difference to the rear wheels between the 4l60e and 700r4?
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In stock form when compared to a 1996 and up 4L60E, the 700R4 will eat a little more horsepower. That is because of the turbulator steel clutches used in the low/reverse and reverse/input clutch packs of the 4L60E, require less horsepower to turn them. GM made the claim many years ago that you could get up to 5% more gas mileage with these installed. In all of my 700R4 rebuild kits I offer these turbulator clutch setups, for this reason. There are ways to reduce horsepower loss, but then this is for mainly drag racing only.
slogo1 I honestly would not get caught up in a power loss between these two units due to the fact they are basically the same unit. If your budget allows I would go with an electronic version for shift timing purposes. It will be much easier to get the 4l60e to shift when you want it to. HTH Vince
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thanks for the help guys. i'm not sure if i'm gonna carb it or fuel inject it. if i can get it injected for close to the same price i would sure go that way and prob the 4l60e. again thanks for your help, i really didnt know if there was any difference.
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I said that GM made the claim many years ago that you could get up to 5% more gas mileage with these installed. From different tests that I have made in different types of transmissions over the years I have seen a slight gain in mph from making these type of changes (adding the turbulator steel clutches where they were not used before). The faster the rpm the more horsepower loss there is from rotational drag from these clutches dragging. The low/reverse clutches can eat up several more horsepower than a transmission without low/reverse clutches. That is why a C-6 transmission will eat up several more horsepower than a TF-727 once in high gear. Since the low/reverse clutches and the reverse/input clutches cannot be eliminated, the Turbulator steel technology that GM created is to greatly reduce the drag that is created when the clutches are in the off position. The added Turbulator slots are to eliminate the ability of the clutch to stick to a steel (somewhat like a magnet) when the clutch is in the open position. The clutches "do not" separate themselves as you would think when they are not being applied. I am sure that you have heard of people putting rubber spacers between the steels to keep them apart when not being applied in certain transmissions. Waved steels would do a similar reduction in drag, but the side effects would be extremely slow clutch engagements because of the long piston apply travel needed to compress the clutch pack fully. GM has used them in 4L80E's for the same reason. I have added them to TH350's, Powerglides, and others, some with slightly better results than others.
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I said that GM made the claim many years ago that you could get up to 5% more gas mileage with these installed. From different tests that I have made in different types of transmissions over the years I have seen a slight gain in mph from making these type of changes (adding the turbulator steel clutches where they were not used before). The faster the rpm the more horsepower loss there is from rotational drag from these clutches dragging. The low/reverse clutches can eat up several more horsepower than a transmission without low/reverse clutches. That is why a C-6 transmission will eat up several more horsepower than a TF-727 once in high gear. Since the low/reverse clutches and the reverse/input clutches cannot be eliminated, the Turbulator steel technology that GM created is to greatly reduce the drag that is created when the clutches are in the off position. The added Turbulator slots are to eliminate the ability of the clutch to stick to a steel (somewhat like a magnet) when the clutch is in the open position. The clutches "do not" separate themselves as you would think when they are not being applied. I am sure that you have heard of people putting rubber spacers between the steels to keep them apart when not being applied in certain transmissions. Waved steels would do a similar reduction in drag, but the side effects would be extremely slow clutch engagements because of the long piston apply travel needed to compress the clutch pack fully. GM has used them in 4L80E's for the same reason. I have added them to TH350's, Powerglides, and others, some with slightly better results than others.
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Quite a few years ago I talked to engineers at Borg Warner about this on several occasions and they verified what GM had said about gaining some gas mileage with the Turbulator steel clutches due to less drag. They also mentioned with less parasitic drag there was a slight drop in oil temperature. Another side effect was a slightly quicker clutch engagement, and they said that you could run the clutch clearances closer when using the Turbulator steel clutches. When I installed these Turbulator steel clutches in different transmissions, (steel clutches that I modified myself) there was always a slight gain in quarter mile performance, some transmissions gained a little more than others. You say there is no difference in "spinloss" when using "waved plates". I was stating using waved plates throughout, not just one to act as a cushion for the clutch engagement. Yes, there are differences in drag. Using all waved plates has the top of the steels making minimum contact with the clutches, when in the open position, therefore less drag. GM & Borg Warner knew this, but as I stated, but it takes too much time and the piston travel is very long to compress the clutch pack when using waved steel clutches throughout. This would create a delay in the clutch engagement. The Turbulator theory was created to eliminate the "excess drag", and it does work.
Last edited by PBA; Jun 7, 2011 at 07:45 AM.
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Quite a few years ago I talked to engineers at Borg Warner about this on several occasions and they verified what GM had said about gaining some gas mileage with the Turbulator steel clutches due to less drag. They also mentioned with less parasitic drag there was a slight drop in oil temperature. Another side effect was a slightly quicker clutch engagement, and they said that you could run the clutch clearances closer when using the Turbulator steel clutches. When I installed these Turbulator steel clutches in different transmissions, (steel clutches that I modified myself) there was always a slight gain in quarter mile performance, some transmissions gained a little more than others. You say there is no difference in "spinloss" when using "waved plates". I was stating using waved plates throughout, not just one to act as a cushion for the clutch engagement. Yes, there are differences in drag. Using all waved plates has the top of the steels making minimum contact with the clutches, when in the open position, therefore less drag. GM & Borg Warner knew this, but as I stated, but it takes too much time and the piston travel is very long to compress the clutch pack when using waved steel clutches throughout. This would create a delay in the clutch engagement. The Turbulator theory was created to eliminate the "excess drag", and it does work.
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If I remember the article correctly. (This was many years ago). GM stated that at 55 - 65mph on a typical GM vehicle, it would save up to 5% in gas mileage when using the Turbulator steels clutches (low/reverse and reverse/input) in a 4L60E. I know that you do not use waved steel clutches thrughout the clutch pack. I was making a comparison with the different ideas, showing what was being compared as to horsepower gain or loss here.
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If I remember the article correctly. (This was many years ago). GM stated that at 55 - 65mph on a typical GM vehicle, it would save up to 5% in gas mileage when using the Turbulator steels clutches (low/reverse and reverse/input) in a 4L60E. I know that you do not use waved steel clutches thrughout the clutch pack. I was making a comparison with the different ideas, showing what was being compared as to horsepower gain or loss here.
Are you or have you ever done any transmission engineering, or do you just google articles? 
To answer your question,
PBA is Pro Built Automatics, Dana is his name and yes he has done considerable research with the 4L60 series units.
His stuff actually works!
Unlike the POS 4L80E transbrake you sold to a bunch of people here on LS1Tech, including me.
What a pile of ****, considering you claimed to be a Hydramatic engineer. You're a joke.
How about you pay some sponsorship fees if you are going to have your business name in your signature?
On The Tree
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[QUOTE=Jake's Performance;15024352]So our old friend Trinity Performance transmissions is back from the dead with a different name and a different partner.
To answer your question,
PBA is Pro Built Automatics, Dana is his name and yes he has done considerable research with the 4L60 series units.
His stuff actually works!
Unlike the POS 4L80E transbrake you sold to a bunch of people here on LS1Tech, including me.
What a pile of ****, considering you claimed to be a Hydramatic engineer. You're a joke.
How about you pay some sponsorship fees if you are going to have your business name in your signature?[/QUOTE
Just because you had issues says very little. You build what 400's and 4l80e's ? I have not seen any rave reviews on a T-brake from you? I Guarantee you one thing I can build any transmission not just 400s and 4l80e far better then anything you offer. I do not post many responses if you would do some research. I respond to threads that are not getting any info. So anytime you want to question my credentials bring it on otherwise let us know what qualifies you to be the expert?
To answer your question,
PBA is Pro Built Automatics, Dana is his name and yes he has done considerable research with the 4L60 series units.
His stuff actually works!
Unlike the POS 4L80E transbrake you sold to a bunch of people here on LS1Tech, including me.
What a pile of ****, considering you claimed to be a Hydramatic engineer. You're a joke.
How about you pay some sponsorship fees if you are going to have your business name in your signature?[/QUOTE
Just because you had issues says very little. You build what 400's and 4l80e's ? I have not seen any rave reviews on a T-brake from you? I Guarantee you one thing I can build any transmission not just 400s and 4l80e far better then anything you offer. I do not post many responses if you would do some research. I respond to threads that are not getting any info. So anytime you want to question my credentials bring it on otherwise let us know what qualifies you to be the expert?
[QUOTE=zgp;15025843] I would say being successful where a" Hydramatic Engineer" failed makes me an expert.
I have sold over 150 of the transbrakes with excellent results. Let see, you sold me one that was fucked, Jordan in Canada, how about we ask Frank@ Performabuilt and Chris@ CK about their experiences with your junk, and the other 2-3 guys who tried your junk and are now using mine?
So our old friend Trinity Performance transmissions is back from the dead with a different name and a different partner.
To answer your question,
PBA is Pro Built Automatics, Dana is his name and yes he has done considerable research with the 4L60 series units.
His stuff actually works!
Unlike the POS 4L80E transbrake you sold to a bunch of people here on LS1Tech, including me.
What a pile of ****, considering you claimed to be a Hydramatic engineer. You're a joke.
How about you pay some sponsorship fees if you are going to have your business name in your signature?[/QUOTE
Just because you had issues says very little. You build what 400's and 4l80e's ? I have not seen any rave reviews on a T-brake from you? I Guarantee you one thing I can build any transmission not just 400s and 4l80e far better then anything you offer. I do not post many responses if you would do some research. I respond to threads that are not getting any info. So anytime you want to question my credentials bring it on otherwise let us know what qualifies you to be the expert?
To answer your question,
PBA is Pro Built Automatics, Dana is his name and yes he has done considerable research with the 4L60 series units.
His stuff actually works!
Unlike the POS 4L80E transbrake you sold to a bunch of people here on LS1Tech, including me.
What a pile of ****, considering you claimed to be a Hydramatic engineer. You're a joke.
How about you pay some sponsorship fees if you are going to have your business name in your signature?[/QUOTE
Just because you had issues says very little. You build what 400's and 4l80e's ? I have not seen any rave reviews on a T-brake from you? I Guarantee you one thing I can build any transmission not just 400s and 4l80e far better then anything you offer. I do not post many responses if you would do some research. I respond to threads that are not getting any info. So anytime you want to question my credentials bring it on otherwise let us know what qualifies you to be the expert?
I have sold over 150 of the transbrakes with excellent results. Let see, you sold me one that was fucked, Jordan in Canada, how about we ask Frank@ Performabuilt and Chris@ CK about their experiences with your junk, and the other 2-3 guys who tried your junk and are now using mine?
Originally Posted by zgp
You build what 400's and 4l80e's ? I have not seen any rave reviews on a T-brake from you? I Guarantee you one thing I can build any transmission not just 400s and 4l80e far better then anything you offer.
I don't sell and ship anything but 4L80E's, TH400's, and occasionally a TH350 anymore.
I have more business than I can keep up with doing JUST 4L80Es. That's how it goes when your product works.
Rave reviews for my T-brake? You should do some more research. The product speaks for itself. Dozens of customers on LS1Tech alone.
Here's one:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...xperience.html
Another;
http://www.performancetrucks.net/for...d.php?t=482815
Another customer:
http://www.performancetrucks.net/for...d.php?t=480995
Another:
http://www.ls1truck.com/forums/showt...910#post424910
How about another:
http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/in...topic=146542.0
Let's review your record....
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...ransbrake.html
Want to continue with this discussion?
