4L60E no 3rd gear?
If the transmission goes to shift into 3rd gear and just neutrals, it is an internal problem not a solenoid. With a no 3rd or 4th gear complaint I would bet that you have lost what is referred to as the 3-4 clutch. HTH Vince
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQtWYgdl9mg
skip to 3:50 to see the actual effect of a 3-4 clutch failure.
if you want to hear me rant for a bit about why i am more pissed than a normal failure. just let it play from the start
skip to 3:50 to see the actual effect of a 3-4 clutch failure.
if you want to hear me rant for a bit about why i am more pissed than a normal failure. just let it play from the start
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: FLORIDA
lose acceleration in 3rd my 4l60e in third gear loses acceleration but it doesnt drop into like a neutral but no matter how hard i press the pedal unless i stomp on it it hardly gains rpms. Even when i stomp on it it hardly gains speed.
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Moderator
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,323
Likes: 529
From: Ann Arbor, MI
Most people describe a completely worn out 3-4 clutch as a shift into Neutral, just banging the rev limiter. If it stays in 2nd gear, that indicates the WOT shift table (in the tune) has too high a MPH to make a shift. This could be caused by slippage in the converter, slippage in the trans, or if the tune was just changed - a bad tune. It commonly happens after a higher stall converter is installed.
Was anything changed recently? Is the car stock?
If nothing was changed and the car is stock, it could be a slipping band while in 2nd gear.
Was anything changed recently? Is the car stock?
If nothing was changed and the car is stock, it could be a slipping band while in 2nd gear.
Teching In
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Replaced everything!!!!!!!! My brother is extremely good with cars and he rebuilt my engine and transmission. Engine is great, Tranny after meticulously replacing every recommended part, 3-4 cluth, pistons, solenoids, gaskets, the gasket where the little ***** (bearings) are, everything!!! It still has the exact same symptoms. Switches to 1st ok, 2nd a little weaker, but drops out on 3rd completely.
I have read online that the torque converter would NOT be the issue, but people say that and others debate that it can. Solenoids same thing, it should NOT be the issue, but some argue they can.
So we found one place that looks like the transmission return line, its a small aluminum tube that runs from top right passenger side under hood to behind the engine near where the tranny and engine meet. There are 2 lines, but this one had been pinned under the engine due to a bad engine mount. There was a noticeably bad leak which we tried to replace by cutting and placing tubing, but it's still leaking. Can a bad leak in this line cause the transmission to fail in this way? It DOES have fluid in it, but can the air pressure or leak cause the 3rd gear miss? Obviously we are going to fix this, but wasn't sure if this could have been the cause all along.. OR if the torque converter CAN be the problem.
We have replaced all the parts everyone said would cause this and its the exact same symptoms... it was a pretty crappy moment when we test drove it... HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have read online that the torque converter would NOT be the issue, but people say that and others debate that it can. Solenoids same thing, it should NOT be the issue, but some argue they can.
So we found one place that looks like the transmission return line, its a small aluminum tube that runs from top right passenger side under hood to behind the engine near where the tranny and engine meet. There are 2 lines, but this one had been pinned under the engine due to a bad engine mount. There was a noticeably bad leak which we tried to replace by cutting and placing tubing, but it's still leaking. Can a bad leak in this line cause the transmission to fail in this way? It DOES have fluid in it, but can the air pressure or leak cause the 3rd gear miss? Obviously we are going to fix this, but wasn't sure if this could have been the cause all along.. OR if the torque converter CAN be the problem.
We have replaced all the parts everyone said would cause this and its the exact same symptoms... it was a pretty crappy moment when we test drove it... HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,323
Likes: 529
From: Ann Arbor, MI
If the car works perfectly in at least one gear, it cannot be the torque converter.
The vent tube on top of the trans is not going to cause problems. The leaks are probably due to either overfilling or heat from worn out clutches.
There are at least 6 places the 3/4 clutch circuit that can leak and it is pretty clear to me that your trans builder missed at least one of them. So yes, your 3/4 clutch is slipping and therefore probably already fried. You will need to pull the trans and figure out where it is leaking. Here are some of the places to check:
1. Input shaft enters the input drum. At a minimum pull out the shaft, add Red Loctite and press it back in. Better, add the Sonnax input drum reinforcement kit.
2. Check ball in the input drum. Make sure it seals.
3. Bleed hole in the input drum. Make it didn't get blown out.
4. Inside of stator shaft. Make sure it is smooth; a premium rebuild replaces it.
5. Teflon rings on input shaft. Should be replaced after many miles and/or if worn or damaged.
6. 3rd accumulator check ball. Make sure it seals as described in ATSG manual.
And all this assumes the input drum was assembled correctly, the 3/4 piston seal wasn't torn, etc.
It is critical to air test the input drum after it is assembled. While holding your finger over the bleed hole, there should be no leakage in the 3/4 circuit.
The vent tube on top of the trans is not going to cause problems. The leaks are probably due to either overfilling or heat from worn out clutches.
There are at least 6 places the 3/4 clutch circuit that can leak and it is pretty clear to me that your trans builder missed at least one of them. So yes, your 3/4 clutch is slipping and therefore probably already fried. You will need to pull the trans and figure out where it is leaking. Here are some of the places to check:
1. Input shaft enters the input drum. At a minimum pull out the shaft, add Red Loctite and press it back in. Better, add the Sonnax input drum reinforcement kit.
2. Check ball in the input drum. Make sure it seals.
3. Bleed hole in the input drum. Make it didn't get blown out.
4. Inside of stator shaft. Make sure it is smooth; a premium rebuild replaces it.
5. Teflon rings on input shaft. Should be replaced after many miles and/or if worn or damaged.
6. 3rd accumulator check ball. Make sure it seals as described in ATSG manual.
And all this assumes the input drum was assembled correctly, the 3/4 piston seal wasn't torn, etc.
It is critical to air test the input drum after it is assembled. While holding your finger over the bleed hole, there should be no leakage in the 3/4 circuit.
Teching In
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
If the car works perfectly in at least one gear, it cannot be the torque converter.
The vent tube on top of the trans is not going to cause problems. The leaks are probably due to either overfilling or heat from worn out clutches.
There are at least 6 places the 3/4 clutch circuit that can leak and it is pretty clear to me that your trans builder missed at least one of them. So yes, your 3/4 clutch is slipping and therefore probably already fried. You will need to pull the trans and figure out where it is leaking. Here are some of the places to check:
1. Input shaft enters the input drum. At a minimum pull out the shaft, add Red Loctite and press it back in. Better, add the Sonnax input drum reinforcement kit.
2. Check ball in the input drum. Make sure it seals.
3. Bleed hole in the input drum. Make it didn't get blown out.
4. Inside of stator shaft. Make sure it is smooth; a premium rebuild replaces it.
5. Teflon rings on input shaft. Should be replaced after many miles and/or if worn or damaged.
6. 3rd accumulator check ball. Make sure it seals as described in ATSG manual.
And all this assumes the input drum was assembled correctly, the 3/4 piston seal wasn't torn, etc.
It is critical to air test the input drum after it is assembled. While holding your finger over the bleed hole, there should be no leakage in the 3/4 circuit.
The vent tube on top of the trans is not going to cause problems. The leaks are probably due to either overfilling or heat from worn out clutches.
There are at least 6 places the 3/4 clutch circuit that can leak and it is pretty clear to me that your trans builder missed at least one of them. So yes, your 3/4 clutch is slipping and therefore probably already fried. You will need to pull the trans and figure out where it is leaking. Here are some of the places to check:
1. Input shaft enters the input drum. At a minimum pull out the shaft, add Red Loctite and press it back in. Better, add the Sonnax input drum reinforcement kit.
2. Check ball in the input drum. Make sure it seals.
3. Bleed hole in the input drum. Make it didn't get blown out.
4. Inside of stator shaft. Make sure it is smooth; a premium rebuild replaces it.
5. Teflon rings on input shaft. Should be replaced after many miles and/or if worn or damaged.
6. 3rd accumulator check ball. Make sure it seals as described in ATSG manual.
And all this assumes the input drum was assembled correctly, the 3/4 piston seal wasn't torn, etc.
It is critical to air test the input drum after it is assembled. While holding your finger over the bleed hole, there should be no leakage in the 3/4 circuit.
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,323
Likes: 529
From: Ann Arbor, MI
Your leak(s) has nothing to do with your loss of 3rd and 4th gear.
The above references to a pressure gauge and checking the pump are related to low line pressure resulting in premature failure of the 3/4 clutch.
The 3/4 clutch is a weak component of these transmissions and every possible leakage point needs to be addressed during a rebuild.
Just replacing a bunch of parts of a trans does NOT make it work; it takes careful assembly and knowledge of where to carefully look for problems.
Did you air test the input drum assembly?
Did you check all of the items I listed above? Any?
The above references to a pressure gauge and checking the pump are related to low line pressure resulting in premature failure of the 3/4 clutch.
The 3/4 clutch is a weak component of these transmissions and every possible leakage point needs to be addressed during a rebuild.
Just replacing a bunch of parts of a trans does NOT make it work; it takes careful assembly and knowledge of where to carefully look for problems.
Did you air test the input drum assembly?
Did you check all of the items I listed above? Any?
Teching In
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Update, fixed!!! We found the issue. We took it to my dad's transmission expert pal. He went over the entire transmission with my brother and everything was repaired and replaced perfectly, so the work done was fine. However, he noticed the 3-4 clutch pack we bought was too thin. This was the issue. These clutch packs are NOT made equal. Buy expensive ones, or get what you pay for. We went ahead and replaced all clutches with performance ones and the car is running better than ever... It's like a new car. Now I just need to get a paint job and fix all the broken plastic......
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,323
Likes: 529
From: Ann Arbor, MI
Thank you for the update; that is much appreciated as it is often "forgotten" by posters.
In the future I will also ask what kind of 3/4 clutch pack was used.
The Hi Energy Borg Warner or GPZ Raybestos are the proven ones used by (I believe) every sponsor and pro builder on this forum; nearly always with 7 or 8 frictions.
If people would just use those proven 3/4 clutch frictions and stop using anything else they find on Ebay (or from kits that haven't been updated in 20 years), many of the 3/4 clutch problems reported here would go away.
In the future I will also ask what kind of 3/4 clutch pack was used.
The Hi Energy Borg Warner or GPZ Raybestos are the proven ones used by (I believe) every sponsor and pro builder on this forum; nearly always with 7 or 8 frictions.
If people would just use those proven 3/4 clutch frictions and stop using anything else they find on Ebay (or from kits that haven't been updated in 20 years), many of the 3/4 clutch problems reported here would go away.
TECH Junkie
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 3,050
Likes: 716
From: Poplarville, MS
This is why you check your clutch pack clearance. This problem can happen on matter what brand name clutches are used. There are just so many different clutch, steel, apply plate, backing plate and snap ring thicknesses too install any clutch pack set and not check the stack clearance.
Teching In
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Clutch pack clearance. I firmly believe that not correcting my reverse clutch pack clearance was what led to my pump rotor exploding last fall. It was a full 0.1" clearance. My hypothesis is that reverse was slipping enough to register a slip code and crank up the line pressure. I got six years out of it.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Most people describe a completely worn out 3-4 clutch as a shift into Neutral, just banging the rev limiter. If it stays in 2nd gear, that indicates the WOT shift table (in the tune) has too high a MPH to make a shift. This could be caused by slippage in the converter, slippage in the trans, or if the tune was just changed - a bad tune. It commonly happens after a higher stall converter is installed.
Was anything changed recently? Is the car stock?
If nothing was changed and the car is stock, it could be a slipping band while in 2nd gear.
Was anything changed recently? Is the car stock?
If nothing was changed and the car is stock, it could be a slipping band while in 2nd gear.
Higher stall converter?? could that also be my problem? I have rebuilt my axod on my 99 Windstar with a new torque converter (reman), originally my transmission would shudder before changing gears, after the rebuild the transmission never went above second gear. I then replaced it with a junkyard Transmission but I put the same new torque converter in and not the junkyard one, did the same never went up second gear. I have already replaced all the outer sensors. Only thing left is the pcm, wiring, transmission cooler , and the torque converter, which sounds like what you were saying!!