4L80E vs. Powerglide
03-05-2012, 11:41 AM
#1
4L80E vs. Powerglide First off, budget is a huge concern here. Looks like I tore up the TH350 I had built last year for the car.
Car is a fox body coupe, LQ9, B/W S475 turbo, has gone 5.85 @ 118mph off the footbrake through a TH350. Car is street legal, has a/c, radio, etc., but is really only driven to/from the track, and around the house for data logs, grab some dinner, etc. This is partly due to not having overdrive (think 2800rpm @ 60mph), and partly due to not wanting to tear up expensive tires, etc.
With that said I don't think I have enough money for a built 4L80 w/a trans brake, but want to see what the vote is.
The OD would be sweet and open up the possibilities of where I could drive it, but at the end of the day I'd still be chewing up expensive tires/brakes/etc plus increasing the likelihood that I get hit and get royally screwed by insurance.
On the flip side, the glide would probably be stronger, lighter, quicker, and less b.s for me to deal with (th350 and PG use the same x-member, would need to get a driveshaft either way but wouldn't have to wire in the powerglide like I would the 80).
So, glide vs. 4l80?
Also, how much can a 4l80 hold in stock form, and what how much are we looking at to build one up decently?
Car is a fox body coupe, LQ9, B/W S475 turbo, has gone 5.85 @ 118mph off the footbrake through a TH350. Car is street legal, has a/c, radio, etc., but is really only driven to/from the track, and around the house for data logs, grab some dinner, etc. This is partly due to not having overdrive (think 2800rpm @ 60mph), and partly due to not wanting to tear up expensive tires, etc.
With that said I don't think I have enough money for a built 4L80 w/a trans brake, but want to see what the vote is.
The OD would be sweet and open up the possibilities of where I could drive it, but at the end of the day I'd still be chewing up expensive tires/brakes/etc plus increasing the likelihood that I get hit and get royally screwed by insurance.
On the flip side, the glide would probably be stronger, lighter, quicker, and less b.s for me to deal with (th350 and PG use the same x-member, would need to get a driveshaft either way but wouldn't have to wire in the powerglide like I would the 80).
So, glide vs. 4l80?
Also, how much can a 4l80 hold in stock form, and what how much are we looking at to build one up decently?
03-05-2012, 12:00 PM
#2
Either would work in your combo, the Glide might have a gearing advantage. 2.48 low is a lot of gear for your combo, I would think a 2.10 ratio 4L80E would be a killer setup.
A glide for that power isn't going to be a cheap setup if done right. Aftermarket gearset, input, clutch hub, servo, valve body, pan, etc. Really should probably be in an aftermarket case too.
A Th400 would be the most economical choice IMO, but you're still looking @ a $1500+ build.
A glide for that power isn't going to be a cheap setup if done right. Aftermarket gearset, input, clutch hub, servo, valve body, pan, etc. Really should probably be in an aftermarket case too.
A Th400 would be the most economical choice IMO, but you're still looking @ a $1500+ build.
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MoreDoorNoGo (10-15-2023)
03-05-2012, 01:17 PM
#3
Either would work in your combo, the Glide might have a gearing advantage. 2.48 low is a lot of gear for your combo, I would think a 2.10 ratio 4L80E would be a killer setup.
A glide for that power isn't going to be a cheap setup if done right. Aftermarket gearset, input, clutch hub, servo, valve body, pan, etc. Really should probably be in an aftermarket case too.
A Th400 would be the most economical choice IMO, but you're still looking @ a $1500+ build.
A glide for that power isn't going to be a cheap setup if done right. Aftermarket gearset, input, clutch hub, servo, valve body, pan, etc. Really should probably be in an aftermarket case too.
A Th400 would be the most economical choice IMO, but you're still looking @ a $1500+ build.
I don't know what gave out in the trans, I am assuming it has to be something mechanical as I drained the fluid out of it and it literally looked brand new, no metal, no pieces, smelled good, etc. The trans never slipped and I didn't know anything was wrong until I left the track. I think whatever happened to it happened on the last pass of the night, I pedaled it twice when it got loose (once out of the hole, once around 300ft, and I guess something let go. Terrible run (6.9@110mph, other guy had trouble too so we were both pedaling for a win)
It shifts 1-2 fine, but then when it goes for third (auto valve body) it clunks, sounds like hell, free revs, but eventually will go into third and drive. I drove it home (50+miles) this way without incident.
03-05-2012, 01:20 PM
#4
Either would work in your combo, the Glide might have a gearing advantage. 2.48 low is a lot of gear for your combo, I would think a 2.10 ratio 4L80E would be a killer setup.
A glide for that power isn't going to be a cheap setup if done right. Aftermarket gearset, input, clutch hub, servo, valve body, pan, etc. Really should probably be in an aftermarket case too.
A Th400 would be the most economical choice IMO, but you're still looking @ a $1500+ build.
A glide for that power isn't going to be a cheap setup if done right. Aftermarket gearset, input, clutch hub, servo, valve body, pan, etc. Really should probably be in an aftermarket case too.
A Th400 would be the most economical choice IMO, but you're still looking @ a $1500+ build.
03-05-2012, 02:22 PM
#5
03-05-2012, 03:19 PM
#7
Would my current converter work in either the glide or the 400? Just had it built in December for this setup.
I don't know what gave out in the trans, I am assuming it has to be something mechanical as I drained the fluid out of it and it literally looked brand new, no metal, no pieces, smelled good, etc. The trans never slipped and I didn't know anything was wrong until I left the track. I think whatever happened to it happened on the last pass of the night, I pedaled it twice when it got loose (once out of the hole, once around 300ft, and I guess something let go. Terrible run (6.9@110mph, other guy had trouble too so we were both pedaling for a win)
It shifts 1-2 fine, but then when it goes for third (auto valve body) it clunks, sounds like hell, free revs, but eventually will go into third and drive. I drove it home (50+miles) this way without incident.
I don't know what gave out in the trans, I am assuming it has to be something mechanical as I drained the fluid out of it and it literally looked brand new, no metal, no pieces, smelled good, etc. The trans never slipped and I didn't know anything was wrong until I left the track. I think whatever happened to it happened on the last pass of the night, I pedaled it twice when it got loose (once out of the hole, once around 300ft, and I guess something let go. Terrible run (6.9@110mph, other guy had trouble too so we were both pedaling for a win)
It shifts 1-2 fine, but then when it goes for third (auto valve body) it clunks, sounds like hell, free revs, but eventually will go into third and drive. I drove it home (50+miles) this way without incident.
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03-05-2012, 09:14 PM
#8
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If you already have a Th350 then build a 400 its a killer trans.. if the car runs good with a 350 then the gearing can't be too far off! If i remember correctly the 350 is 2.57-1 for first.. I personally favor the 4L80E but the controller you would need would cost half the build of a 400.. stock 400 with a input shaft, 34element spag and a good soft parts kit would be good to 800hp... jakes performance is a great company from what i hear.. He may be willing to match ckperformace for a price on the intermediate shaft.. also you should upgrade to a 1.25 band.. after that your weak point would be the stock 4 pinion helical cut gear set.. Stay away from alto the steels they are too thin and warp over repeated cycles of severe duty.. You may want to consider a lock up torque converter! It will allow you to run a large stall for added 0-60 and 1/4 mile times and then lock it up for street and on the strip and will drop 200-300 RPM almost like a 4th gear....Most good torque converter companies will have a single disc lock up that will handle 900hp/torque for about 750.. A full 400 build t handle 750-800 hp.. $800-1000 with converter $1700 yank converters sister company should have the stuff you need to convert to lock up if desired.
03-06-2012, 11:08 AM
#9
Put a glide in it.
With a turbo you really need the 1.80 or steeper first gear so the car can get off the line without spinning due to a high first gear ratio and/or end up on the back bumper also because of the high 1st gear ratio.
A glide's first gear allows you to throw a **** load more power off the line at it than you could a 4l60e, 4l80e, th350 or th400 all due to the first gear ratio.
All turbo radial tired drag cars have a Glide or a Turbo glide or a Th210 with steep first gear. That's why on the fast record setting passes the 60' doesn't even look fast because the front end stays down and glued to the track because of the first gear ratio(and a lot of other things, but it wouldn't be possible without that gear ratio).
Also since the ratio difference between the 1-2 shift on a glide isn't near as big as any other GM trans, it won't unsettle the car's suspension on the 1-2 shift lessening your chances of spinning.
Jake is also correct in saying that every reputable converter or trans builder will tell you when you go from a 3spd to a 2spd like a glide that the stall converter would work from the 3spd, but due to the first gear ratio change it will probably need more stall speed, and quite possibly a stator change.
All that being said, I would not even think about a TH400 or 80e. The 80e because of price, and the 400 due to the first gear and putting a 2.10 ratio in a th400 isn't a cheap option.
Also when you go from a 3spd. to a 2spd contrary to popular belief you will probably not lose any MPG.
The main diff. between a 60e, 80e vs. a th400, th350 and glide is the overdrive gear and the lock up feature.
Once you get rid of the OD gear, all you have is a 1:1 high gear which is the same in a th350, 400 and a glide.
The only difference will be taking off, and it would be kinda like taking off in 2nd gear of the 400 if you had a glide, but since most change the rear gear ratio slightly going from a 3spd to a 2spd you probably won't even notice the difference aside from at the track.
With a turbo you really need the 1.80 or steeper first gear so the car can get off the line without spinning due to a high first gear ratio and/or end up on the back bumper also because of the high 1st gear ratio.
A glide's first gear allows you to throw a **** load more power off the line at it than you could a 4l60e, 4l80e, th350 or th400 all due to the first gear ratio.
All turbo radial tired drag cars have a Glide or a Turbo glide or a Th210 with steep first gear. That's why on the fast record setting passes the 60' doesn't even look fast because the front end stays down and glued to the track because of the first gear ratio(and a lot of other things, but it wouldn't be possible without that gear ratio).
Also since the ratio difference between the 1-2 shift on a glide isn't near as big as any other GM trans, it won't unsettle the car's suspension on the 1-2 shift lessening your chances of spinning.
Jake is also correct in saying that every reputable converter or trans builder will tell you when you go from a 3spd to a 2spd like a glide that the stall converter would work from the 3spd, but due to the first gear ratio change it will probably need more stall speed, and quite possibly a stator change.
All that being said, I would not even think about a TH400 or 80e. The 80e because of price, and the 400 due to the first gear and putting a 2.10 ratio in a th400 isn't a cheap option.
Also when you go from a 3spd. to a 2spd contrary to popular belief you will probably not lose any MPG.
The main diff. between a 60e, 80e vs. a th400, th350 and glide is the overdrive gear and the lock up feature.
Once you get rid of the OD gear, all you have is a 1:1 high gear which is the same in a th350, 400 and a glide.
The only difference will be taking off, and it would be kinda like taking off in 2nd gear of the 400 if you had a glide, but since most change the rear gear ratio slightly going from a 3spd to a 2spd you probably won't even notice the difference aside from at the track.
03-06-2012, 01:41 PM
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FBODY.... You would switch to a glide if you could? And he said he drives it to and from the track and out to diner and such.. drive-ability would be greatly reduced with a powerglide due to the need for such a high stall converter.. Maybe i'm looking at it wrong but wouldn't a rear end gear change be better? most good shift kits allow you to hold any gear..
03-06-2012, 05:28 PM
#11
I think the 2.10 gear 4L80E would be ideal in this combo, but at $1250 for the gearset alone it does add up.
A Glide with a Gear Vendors could be pretty neat as well, but again, the budget gets blown pretty quick.
Lots of options that would work well. We could do a 4L80E and make it a 2nd gear leaver, so it launches off the 1.48 ratio in 2nd to load the turbo.
A Glide with a Gear Vendors could be pretty neat as well, but again, the budget gets blown pretty quick.
Lots of options that would work well. We could do a 4L80E and make it a 2nd gear leaver, so it launches off the 1.48 ratio in 2nd to load the turbo.
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MoreDoorNoGo (10-15-2023)
03-06-2012, 06:50 PM
#12
FBODY.... You would switch to a glide if you could? And he said he drives it to and from the track and out to diner and such.. drive-ability would be greatly reduced with a powerglide due to the need for such a high stall converter.. Maybe i'm looking at it wrong but wouldn't a rear end gear change be better? most good shift kits allow you to hold any gear..
I'd want something in the 3800-4200 range if it was a glide. He could do it with a TH400, but to get the same effective starting line ratio(1st gear x rear gear) the rear would be so low, the converter would have to be pretty loose and have an aggressive stator in it to get the shift extension needed to keep the engine in it's powerband and then you loose all efficiency.
The way I see it, it's not a DD right now, and it's already minus an OD gear and lock up so he's not going to be missing any of that "good" stuff lol.
I too agree with jake that the ultimate combo would be an 80e with a 2.10 first gear, but that is expensive, 1200 more than what it would cost to build one that would handle his power level right now with a stock bottom end and barely pushing that turbo he has. Same deal with the TH400.
The 2nd gear leaver idea for the 80e or the Th400 is a nice idea, but then again $$$.
For what he is trying to do a glide is the best option in my eye. It keeps his fox body light, it will actually lose 20 pounds or so over the TH350 he had in there with him finally having a transbrake he will improve upon his 1.33 60' he has already cut off the footbrake with the Th350.
It will take a different timing table and more boost, to make the glide shine out of the hole, but when that is done, I don't see why he won't be able to cut 1.2x 60's with it.
03-06-2012, 07:35 PM
#13
I went 5.70's in my s10 with a glide behind a 406 with a 250 shot off the transbrake. It had a vasco input shaft, jw ultrabell, stock case, stock planetaries, billet forward hub and dual o ring servo. I had about 1500 in it minus converter. You can reuse your converter if you use a turbo splined input shaft. I built the trans myself.
04-12-2012, 10:58 AM
#16
4L80/4L80E
(FREE CONVERTER AND SHIPPING)
Installation and extended warranties available
Features
•MAD DOG'S SUPER HEAVY DUTY 4L80/4L80E Rated up to 1200HP All Mad Dog Transmissions are completely rebuilt and come with a Master Overhaul Kit which includes: • All new lip seals • All new gaskets • All new Teflon rings • New filter • TCC Sonnax update valve (to eliminate common 1870 code) • New TCC Solenoid • All new steels • All new bushings • All new Raybestos clutch discs • All new sprags • All new shift solenoids • New direct drum • New center support • New 34 element sprag • New Sonnax boost valve • All new wiring harness • New EPC solenoid • New shift solenoids • New pressure manifold • 4140 Billet Hub THIS TRANSMISSION CAN HANDLE 1,200 HP and PULL A HOUSE DOWN !!! This MAD DOG TRANSMISSION is designed for lots of abuse, excellent for RACING or TOWING heavy weight. This transmission will not take away any horsepower from your engine. As a matter of fact, this transmission will deliver more rear wheel horsepower than the factory 4L80E !!! The reason being is that we run roller bearings instead of thrust washers which drag inside the transmission and create more heat. The most common problem on the 4L80E is losing reverse and 3rd gear due to the aluminum pressure regulator valve binding up and sticking at wide open pressure. We put a steel pressure regulator valve to eliminate that common problem. Another common problem is damaged plastic oem accumulators. We replace them with the Sonnax aluminum accumulators with a new sleeve. We use the updated Sonnax sleeve and piston to eliminate that problem. Over 26 years of building experience is put into each transmission to ensure that the pressures and clearances are to specifications. NOTE: This transmission requires an on-board computer to operate correctly. (which costs anywhere from $1,000 - $1,200) We offer a Full Manual Valve Body that will eliminate the on-board computer. (additional $350.00) NOTE: Let us know what type of shift you want. We can custom build each valve body for your application. • Stage 1 is a factory shift. • Stage 2 has a nice crisp shift and at wide open throttle it will put you in your seat. • Stage 3 is for that Saturday night special. Be warned stage 3 shift is very violent! Includes $500 CORE.... I have been building transmissions for over 26 years. I'm a former NHRA Drag Racer. It's always best to put top of the line components in the transmission, however if you don't install them properly and check all your clearances, etc., ANY transmission will fail! We provide excellent technical support to all our customers. We will walk you through the proper installation of your new transmission. CALL 770-781-0949, ASK FOR MAD DOG LOU. I rebuilt each transmission like my own. I have over 26 years of racing experience. Believe me I've done it all! If you have any questions on conversions, and how lockup works or lock up converters or nitrous applications etc., I will be more than happy to give you my professional opinion. All my transmissions are 100% tested right here in the shop. Never play Russian Roulette and hope the transmission might work! Guaranteed to work right the first time! Nobody wants to spend hours of installing a transmission just to find out that there is a possible leak, vibration, delayed engagement, sloppy shifting, no reverse, and the list goes on!!! We provide sales and technical support 7 days a week up until 11:00 pm ET. Call 770-781-0949 or e-mail your questions to maddoglou454@aol.com “NECK BRACE NOT INCLUDED !!!” If YOU’VE got THE HORSEPOWER we have the transmission !!! 4L80/4L80E Transmission includes $500 core charge. If you bring me your core in good, rebuildable condition, your price will be reduced by $500.00 ***Note: If the customer’s core is returned in a condition that it can be rebuilt (no cracks and within 15 days), a refund will be processed to the customer.
•Installations are available on all our transmissions.
•These transmissions are a direct replacement for your GM vehicle. No modifications or custom tuning necessary.
•If you are looking for an overdrive transmission for your old school vehicle, we can do the complete installation or send you our conversion kit.
•Extended warranties are available on all our transmissions.
Remember the transmission is only as good as the builder, even if you are using all top of the line components. There is a lot more than just exchanging parts when remanufacturing a transmission. I have been rebuilding high performance, racing and daily driver transmissions for over 26 years and I am a man with integrity. One thing for sure, you will not be disappointed. We are always available to provide technical assistance to help ensure that we setup the right transmission and torque converter for your application.
We build bulletproof transmissions! It is critical that we know how you are running your vehicle and the needs you have for your application. If you're running nitrous, superchargers or turbo-chargers, please be sure to give us this information. We cannot setup the right transmission for your application without this information.
Please contact me for a professional consultation regarding your needs. We are happy to provide you with references both here in the United States and Internationally. Be sure to check out our website at maddogtransmissions.com
Hear what our customers and fans say on our Facebook Page at www.facebook.com/maddogtransmissions
We also accept orders over the phone. Be sure to contact us and we will recommend the correct transmission for your application. For your convenience, we accept PayPal and all major credit and debit cards.
If you prefer, we can call you personally, just e-mail us your phone number.
All our transmissions are very strong and reliable, and can be used for everyday driving. Extended warranties are also available.
Thank You,
"Mad Dog" Lou
Mad Dog Transmissions
Phone 770-781-0949
Fax 770-781-0969
Web: www.maddogtransmissions.com
Facebook: www.facebook.com/maddogtransmissions
Twitter: www.twitter.com/maddoglou
YouTube: www.youtube.com/maddogtransmissions
(FREE CONVERTER AND SHIPPING)
Installation and extended warranties available
Features
•MAD DOG'S SUPER HEAVY DUTY 4L80/4L80E Rated up to 1200HP All Mad Dog Transmissions are completely rebuilt and come with a Master Overhaul Kit which includes: • All new lip seals • All new gaskets • All new Teflon rings • New filter • TCC Sonnax update valve (to eliminate common 1870 code) • New TCC Solenoid • All new steels • All new bushings • All new Raybestos clutch discs • All new sprags • All new shift solenoids • New direct drum • New center support • New 34 element sprag • New Sonnax boost valve • All new wiring harness • New EPC solenoid • New shift solenoids • New pressure manifold • 4140 Billet Hub THIS TRANSMISSION CAN HANDLE 1,200 HP and PULL A HOUSE DOWN !!! This MAD DOG TRANSMISSION is designed for lots of abuse, excellent for RACING or TOWING heavy weight. This transmission will not take away any horsepower from your engine. As a matter of fact, this transmission will deliver more rear wheel horsepower than the factory 4L80E !!! The reason being is that we run roller bearings instead of thrust washers which drag inside the transmission and create more heat. The most common problem on the 4L80E is losing reverse and 3rd gear due to the aluminum pressure regulator valve binding up and sticking at wide open pressure. We put a steel pressure regulator valve to eliminate that common problem. Another common problem is damaged plastic oem accumulators. We replace them with the Sonnax aluminum accumulators with a new sleeve. We use the updated Sonnax sleeve and piston to eliminate that problem. Over 26 years of building experience is put into each transmission to ensure that the pressures and clearances are to specifications. NOTE: This transmission requires an on-board computer to operate correctly. (which costs anywhere from $1,000 - $1,200) We offer a Full Manual Valve Body that will eliminate the on-board computer. (additional $350.00) NOTE: Let us know what type of shift you want. We can custom build each valve body for your application. • Stage 1 is a factory shift. • Stage 2 has a nice crisp shift and at wide open throttle it will put you in your seat. • Stage 3 is for that Saturday night special. Be warned stage 3 shift is very violent! Includes $500 CORE.... I have been building transmissions for over 26 years. I'm a former NHRA Drag Racer. It's always best to put top of the line components in the transmission, however if you don't install them properly and check all your clearances, etc., ANY transmission will fail! We provide excellent technical support to all our customers. We will walk you through the proper installation of your new transmission. CALL 770-781-0949, ASK FOR MAD DOG LOU. I rebuilt each transmission like my own. I have over 26 years of racing experience. Believe me I've done it all! If you have any questions on conversions, and how lockup works or lock up converters or nitrous applications etc., I will be more than happy to give you my professional opinion. All my transmissions are 100% tested right here in the shop. Never play Russian Roulette and hope the transmission might work! Guaranteed to work right the first time! Nobody wants to spend hours of installing a transmission just to find out that there is a possible leak, vibration, delayed engagement, sloppy shifting, no reverse, and the list goes on!!! We provide sales and technical support 7 days a week up until 11:00 pm ET. Call 770-781-0949 or e-mail your questions to maddoglou454@aol.com “NECK BRACE NOT INCLUDED !!!” If YOU’VE got THE HORSEPOWER we have the transmission !!! 4L80/4L80E Transmission includes $500 core charge. If you bring me your core in good, rebuildable condition, your price will be reduced by $500.00 ***Note: If the customer’s core is returned in a condition that it can be rebuilt (no cracks and within 15 days), a refund will be processed to the customer.
•Installations are available on all our transmissions.
•These transmissions are a direct replacement for your GM vehicle. No modifications or custom tuning necessary.
•If you are looking for an overdrive transmission for your old school vehicle, we can do the complete installation or send you our conversion kit.
•Extended warranties are available on all our transmissions.
Remember the transmission is only as good as the builder, even if you are using all top of the line components. There is a lot more than just exchanging parts when remanufacturing a transmission. I have been rebuilding high performance, racing and daily driver transmissions for over 26 years and I am a man with integrity. One thing for sure, you will not be disappointed. We are always available to provide technical assistance to help ensure that we setup the right transmission and torque converter for your application.
We build bulletproof transmissions! It is critical that we know how you are running your vehicle and the needs you have for your application. If you're running nitrous, superchargers or turbo-chargers, please be sure to give us this information. We cannot setup the right transmission for your application without this information.
Please contact me for a professional consultation regarding your needs. We are happy to provide you with references both here in the United States and Internationally. Be sure to check out our website at maddogtransmissions.com
Hear what our customers and fans say on our Facebook Page at www.facebook.com/maddogtransmissions
We also accept orders over the phone. Be sure to contact us and we will recommend the correct transmission for your application. For your convenience, we accept PayPal and all major credit and debit cards.
If you prefer, we can call you personally, just e-mail us your phone number.
All our transmissions are very strong and reliable, and can be used for everyday driving. Extended warranties are also available.
Thank You,
"Mad Dog" Lou
Mad Dog Transmissions
Phone 770-781-0949
Fax 770-781-0969
Web: www.maddogtransmissions.com
Facebook: www.facebook.com/maddogtransmissions
Twitter: www.twitter.com/maddoglou
YouTube: www.youtube.com/maddogtransmissions
01-04-2013, 12:17 AM
#17
I went 5.70's in my s10 with a glide behind a 406 with a 250 shot off the transbrake. It had a vasco input shaft, jw ultrabell, stock case, stock planetaries, billet forward hub and dual o ring servo. I had about 1500 in it minus converter. You can reuse your converter if you use a turbo splined input shaft. I built the trans myself.
01-19-2013, 08:55 PM
#19
sorry not to jack the thread but im in the same boat sort of ive been debating making my stock 6spd car into an auto due to the recent changes in build. im going to be running an f1r in a 98 fbody forged internals in a 6.0 stock weight with 3.43 gears sees almost all street/cruise night miles some street racing. would a glide be better or an 80e? some other car guys suggested a glide. if i were to glide what converter would be best or is there a better option for the set up also budget is a concern as is with everyone in this economy
