Thinking about a stall advice please
06-03-2013, 02:30 PM
#21
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Dynamic you are right its not a drag race car..
That don't mean it won't see the track now and then.
But its more of a street style stall is what I want.
For a street style cam such as the 228r.
Car is not a dd but I do drive it a lot.
I'm just more into fun on the street.
That don't mean it won't see the track now and then.
But its more of a street style stall is what I want.
For a street style cam such as the 228r.
Car is not a dd but I do drive it a lot.
I'm just more into fun on the street.
06-03-2013, 02:45 PM
#22
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Call or PM one of the convertor sponsors on here and let them know what you have to work with and what you want to accomplish and I guarantee you they will have what your looking for and/or make suggestions to what you need.
06-08-2013, 01:50 PM
#24
A single pattern 228 is not that small of a camshaft...? Wow... Two different worlds we come from, I guess.
I never said it wouldn't pull past 5000, did I? I said the meat of its power will be in the 2000-5000 range. I would just aim quite a bit lower in that range with a converter.
If the guy wants to do nothing but drag race, then, yes, by all means...over-stall the thing. I, personally, don't even really like drag racing, so you guys can have it... But, I'm guessing that with that camshaft choice, it's more of a daily driver than a drag racer. There's very little that's more irritating than daily driving a car with too much converter. I was trying to prevent that for the OP.
But, to each his own...!
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I never said it wouldn't pull past 5000, did I? I said the meat of its power will be in the 2000-5000 range. I would just aim quite a bit lower in that range with a converter.
If the guy wants to do nothing but drag race, then, yes, by all means...over-stall the thing. I, personally, don't even really like drag racing, so you guys can have it... But, I'm guessing that with that camshaft choice, it's more of a daily driver than a drag racer. There's very little that's more irritating than daily driving a car with too much converter. I was trying to prevent that for the OP.
But, to each his own...!
.
Why would you aim lower? A 228R with a 112-113 LSA cams "meat" will be much higher than 2000. If you got it with a 108-109 LSA I suppose it might start that low.
Those are higher revving cams than most think. A 228R on a 112 will need to at least spin to 6300.
You have GOT to be kidding me.. Show me ANY proof AT ALL that a stock cam will not run better with a 4000 than a 3200. LOL I won't hold my breath. I can show you 50 stock cam cars running 11s with 3600+ converters. How man stock cam cars can you show me running 11s with a 3200 or smaller?
You are literally the first person I have ever heard say that, ever. You need to go tell that to the stock internal guys that are hitting 10s. Hey, take out your 4400+ converter in favor of a 3000 and you would pick up time... That is a horrible match for a stock cam.
Well, yes, I do own an LT1 (M6, though... LOL), but I build transmissions for all of them... It's what I do...
Listen... I'm not trying to be argumentative or controversial. I just like to see people enjoy their project when it's done. I can't tell you how many times I've put the converter in a car that the customer wanted, only to pull it back out in favor of the tighter converter that I recommended in the first place after they drove it around for a month or two.
If an engine has a camshaft that needs a very loose converter, or is building a car for a specific purpose (drag racing) that needs a very loose converter, then, by all means put it one in there! I sell them, too...! They have their purpose for sure... I just didn't get that impression from the OP. Maybe I'm wrong...
Listen... I'm not trying to be argumentative or controversial. I just like to see people enjoy their project when it's done. I can't tell you how many times I've put the converter in a car that the customer wanted, only to pull it back out in favor of the tighter converter that I recommended in the first place after they drove it around for a month or two.
If an engine has a camshaft that needs a very loose converter, or is building a car for a specific purpose (drag racing) that needs a very loose converter, then, by all means put it one in there! I sell them, too...! They have their purpose for sure... I just didn't get that impression from the OP. Maybe I'm wrong...
Oh, and no...a stock camshaft will not run better with a 4000 than a 3200... THAT is silly..
You are wrong, just not about that one single thing. 2
I currently have a 231/239 cam and have run 2400, 3200 and 3600 stalls from TCI and Yank. I have a 3.41 rear. In the future I will order a low-STR 3200 because I find the 3600 a bit too high for city driving.
I think it depends a bit on your age - as you "mature" you want a more civilized car and that means a lower stall. I'm 58 (and I think Dynamic386 is close to that) and we are therefore inclined to more civilized characteristics.
What Dynamic396 is saying is that you want the stall speed well below the max torque of the engine so that you run in the "meat" of the torque curve and not beyond it. If all you want is the lowest 60ft time, then get a crazy high stall speed with a high STR, but at the end of the 60ft you will soon be shifting into 2nd gear because you missed the "meat".
IMHO, I think some people go from a stock converter to e.g. a 4000 and think its the best improvement ever. Yes it is, but a 3200 or 3600 might have been even better and given a quicker ET (if that is even important).
Mostly, it comes down to personal preferences, especially with street driving. Track- only cars have even hotter cams and therefore 4000+ stalls will be fastest ET.
PS. I try to stay out of these hotly debated subjects, but I find few supporters of my more modest-stall inclinations. And I have no facts to support my preference.
I think it depends a bit on your age - as you "mature" you want a more civilized car and that means a lower stall. I'm 58 (and I think Dynamic386 is close to that) and we are therefore inclined to more civilized characteristics.
What Dynamic396 is saying is that you want the stall speed well below the max torque of the engine so that you run in the "meat" of the torque curve and not beyond it. If all you want is the lowest 60ft time, then get a crazy high stall speed with a high STR, but at the end of the 60ft you will soon be shifting into 2nd gear because you missed the "meat".
IMHO, I think some people go from a stock converter to e.g. a 4000 and think its the best improvement ever. Yes it is, but a 3200 or 3600 might have been even better and given a quicker ET (if that is even important).
Mostly, it comes down to personal preferences, especially with street driving. Track- only cars have even hotter cams and therefore 4000+ stalls will be fastest ET.
PS. I try to stay out of these hotly debated subjects, but I find few supporters of my more modest-stall inclinations. And I have no facts to support my preference.
Go to a 3.73 gear and get a lower STR. Then your 3600 will feel like a 3200 but still perform like a 3600. All while not roasting the tires and still pulling efficiently up top.
Unless we start talking nitrous/FI builds... A 3200 will NEVER ever out perform a 4000, ever. If you can show me one single instance where a 3200 achieved a quicker ET than a 4000 I will change EVERYTHING I say about converters. Fact is, you won't.
My 226 cam setup performed better than the vast majority of other high 22X cam cars... One major reason was because I was 60' in the 1.50-1.52 range, because of my 4000 converter. Show me a 3200 converter with a high 22X cam matching that 60'.
I'm all for personal preference.. What I WILL NOT tolerate is someone posting that a 3200 is going to perform as good, less better, than a 3600-4000 converter. That is absolute ignorance.
I enjoy a tight converter depending on what the car is used for. However, I REALLY enjoy 3600-4000 converter, I think they are perfect. 4400+ is a bit loose for a street car though, I agree. A well built 4000 and 373s isn't a bad combo at all for a street car. 3600 is very common and for good reason. A lot of guys even wished they had went 4000 because the 3600 setup is so tame.
06-08-2013, 08:37 PM
#26
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06-29-2013, 06:14 AM
#28
Im 50 years old and was stuck on the 80s turbo 350/400 converters mentality and knew how much a PITA the hi stalls were to drive around back then with 3 speeds. These 4l60/4l80 with lock-up is a totally different animal with the LS1. Technology has come a long way. I would do minimum 3600 in any LS car and I have a 4k in my 02 camaro and its great on the street and it hauls the mail. I had a 3200 and it picked it up for sure but couldn't tell it was in there after driving it for a week. The 4k you can tell its there and it pulls like crazy. I have 3.23 gears too.Totally different car. Do yourself a favor and do it once===I didnt listen to what i was reading on this site and did it twice--Hardheaded I guess. Do 3600/3800at least. The 4k is a blast to drive. A 3600 will pick up a bone stock LS1 car quite a bit. Guaranteed.
Lemons12 is CORRECT!!! Hate to say it but He is giving good advice above.
Lemons12 is CORRECT!!! Hate to say it but He is giving good advice above.
07-05-2013, 10:02 AM
#30
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Imnin the same boat you are op. I've got my heads and a 228r sitting in a box waiting to be installed. After tons of research on here I went with the ss3600 and its amazing. The reason I went with it is because is because my car isn't a dd but I do drive it alot, but I wanted dd reliability and performance. So every mod I've chosen will give me the best performance without sacrificing too much drivability. The ss3600 is easy to drive and fun too. You will be used to driving it by the time you make it home from the shop. If you want a fast street car that is a blast to drive you might as well learn from everyone else's mistakes and go with a nice proven setup. That's what made my decision seeing dozens of 22X and ss3600 combos. Obviously if its that popular it must be doing something right. By the way I'm 29 and drive fast and really enjoy my 3600. I don't drag the car but if your close to my age and enjoy spirited driving buy one and don't look back.
08-04-2013, 07:10 AM
#32
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That converter is too loose for that camshaft. That's a relatively small cam that will make it's best power from about 2000-5000 rpm (or thereabouts). Why would you want to set your converter so high in the torque curve?
A 3600 will work, but you're leaving performance on the table...
A 3600 will work, but you're leaving performance on the table...
Plus on the dyno the car made power up to 5800 and I shift at 6200.
08-04-2013, 07:37 AM
#33
I had a CDS 3200 stall and a 227R on a 114lsa with 3.70 gears. BTW, I would recomend looking at any other lobe than the XER (which the 228 is) That lobe is nasty as hell and very hard on parts compared to newer lobes that make the same power.
Anyway, I ended up restalling to 3600. In short, my 3200 pushed pretty good and when youd put it in gear it would bang the gears pretty hard. With the 3.70s it felt tighter than stock.
After the restall (and a minimal cam change) it is basically like stock driving around (I never command lockup except in OD), until you hammer the throttle and then you feel a decent hit. I live on a steep hill and I do ride the stall quite a bit going up, but its not a big deal, right at 2krpm to run 20mph. In the future I will stall even higher for sure, but I do have a bit more gear than stock.
Since you have already bought the stall you could consider a tighter LSA on the cam, which I think would fit the stall better. But I think youll have a better overall package with a higher stall, ie use that free restall.
LOL on the age thing cause im getting up there, at least I feel like it. You guys could get a double disc and adjust lockup in the tune to make it really tame for normal driving, but still have a vicious hit. I may do that for my next stall.
Anyway, I ended up restalling to 3600. In short, my 3200 pushed pretty good and when youd put it in gear it would bang the gears pretty hard. With the 3.70s it felt tighter than stock.
After the restall (and a minimal cam change) it is basically like stock driving around (I never command lockup except in OD), until you hammer the throttle and then you feel a decent hit. I live on a steep hill and I do ride the stall quite a bit going up, but its not a big deal, right at 2krpm to run 20mph. In the future I will stall even higher for sure, but I do have a bit more gear than stock.
Since you have already bought the stall you could consider a tighter LSA on the cam, which I think would fit the stall better. But I think youll have a better overall package with a higher stall, ie use that free restall.
LOL on the age thing cause im getting up there, at least I feel like it. You guys could get a double disc and adjust lockup in the tune to make it really tame for normal driving, but still have a vicious hit. I may do that for my next stall.
Last edited by therabidweasel; 08-04-2013 at 08:21 AM.
