thunderstruck507

iTrader: (18)

Drag raced Friday night, beat on the car on the street all day Saturday, and went to autox on Sunday...on my last run the car just didn't move.

No noises, jerks, or anything just free revved. Checked fluid level off and on and it's not moving any fluid. Fluid on the stick is clean and doesn't smell burned or anything (it only has a few thousand miles on it since the last change and filter).

Thinking it's either the converter, the pump, or stripped input shaft?

Going to try to drop the trans for inspection either tonight or tomorrow.

mrvedit

Sorry to hear of your troubles.
You certainly know enough about transmissions to diagnose and probably fix the problem. From what I read here, busted pump rotors are more common than broke input shafts. Did you ever accidentally smash the converter into the pump rotor?

Good luck and keep us posted. Maybe someone will have a suggestion after you diagnose it.

thunderstruck507

iTrader: (18)

Nope. Other than 2 fluid/filter changes and the addition of the Sonax HD valve a few months ago the transmission and converter have been untouched since it went in around 3 years ago.

If it's anything that involves opening the case I will probably try to put fresh 3/4 clutches in at the minimum. Really hoping everything else is good. I'm extremely tight on funds right now.

thunderstruck507

iTrader: (18)

Lots of silver and gold metal material in the fluid in the pan. Have it fully out tonight but I'm thinking the converter let go. Only other brass parts I can think of are bushings and there shouldn't be this much material as quick as it let go and was shut down.

We will see.

mrvedit

It's probably fools gold.
You are correct there is very little brass in the trans; only a few bushings, and a total bushing failure would make noise, probably not prevent forward motion.

If it is the converter and I know so little about converter internals, I would be very curious what failed. Heck, I would even donate a few dollars to have your local shop cut it open for pictures. PM me if you want to do that.

thunderstruck507

iTrader: (18)

Think I found the problem. The converter internals also feel like they move around inside the case. Input shaft still spins with normal amount of resistance and is smooth. Pump is most certainly trashed. Need to inspect the input shaft closer but I think a few splines are slightly roughed up.



Really hope Yank can still rebuild it for a decent price otherwise I'm dead in the water.

mrvedit

Well, the picture sure explains a lot.
I just don't understand how it got ripped like that.

Yes, I also would definitely get an entire new pump. Are you going to rebuild the trans yourself? Let me know if you need a source for a good rebuilt pump (typically $100).

thunderstruck507

iTrader: (18)

Yank said they see it a decent bit. The pump fails and locks up and breaks the snout.

Typical repair cost was quoted at $300 plus shipping. They also restore everything else to make it good as new.

If you don't mind, PM me the source for the pump. I dunno what spare parts I have left at home but I'm pretty sure I have an entire 4x4 core.

mjs1012

iTrader: (36)

Sucks this happened to you, any idea of why the pump would just fail? Are you going to get another ss3600 or try something different?

thunderstruck507

iTrader: (18)

No idea on the pump...a few people tell me they think the converter was balooning but I dunno how with 390rwhp and no power adders...it broke during an autox launch so I was rolling into the throttle lightly.

I'm on the fence. I loved the SS3600 but would like a little more out of it at the track.

It went a best of 1.68 60ft...if it would do that all the time I would be content. But more often it dead hooks a 1.74-1.77 depending on DA.

I've rode in a Vigilante 4000 car and hated it, sloppiest feeling ever...felt like the trans was trash. And I keep reading about people with the SS4000 and it seems to be more than I want to drive on the street too since the car is a little heavy and the area is filled with hills. Maybe keep the 3600 but switch to 3.73 gear down the road?

mrvedit

I have bought pumps, valve bodies, bell housings and other hard parts from ebay seller "powertrainpartsplus". I have always been very satisfied with the quality. I have suggested them to others that I have helped on this forum, and they were very happy too.
Here is a link to their current selection of GM Trans parts:
http://stores.ebay.com/powertrain-pa...=p4634.c0.m322

A non-ISS pump in VG/Excellent condition is typically $90; an ISS pump is a $10 more.

The pump from your 4x4 core should be fine too, as long as both transmissions are in the '96 through '05 year range (with PWM but without ISS).

Unfortunately the general advice will be to rebuild and thoroughly clean your trans after a catastrophic failure.

thunderstruck507

iTrader: (18)

Of course. My dad is a mechanic and GM transmissions are a specialty so we will be going through the whole thing to clean and inspect everything.

I will of course replace anything which is suspect....nothing in the trans costs more than 1 trip home on the trailer.

I am fairly certain the only extra parts I do not have on hand are quality upgraded clutches/steels, band, and 2wd output shaft. May or may not need to purchase a pump and input drum assembly.

Wish it would have lasted until the end of Oct. As is I really want to get it done in time to run at least once in good air...our track is only really good in fall. In spring it's green and won't hook and summer the DA holds over 3000ft.

Not sure if it's in the cards though. Converter costs are higher than I expected (I had read of people getting them redone for $200 plus shipping) and could have more internal damage than I anticipate. We will see.

mrvedit

Several of the builders that participate on this forum have a preference for 7 frictions in the 3-4 clutch; others prefer 8.
If you get a 4l65E rebuild it, it will come with 7 frictions; that is the only difference between a 4l60e and 4l65e rebuilt kit.
If you decide to go with 8 frictions, the Borg Warner Hi-Energy are a near consensus. One builder here (Dynamic396?) is adamant about always replacing the 3-4 clutch apply plate or at least measuring it to ensure it has less than .001 of coning. At $10 new it is cheap insurance. IIRC, the thickest apply plate is .225.

poltergeist 02

iTrader: (65)

Did you shim the converter when you installed it? Or at least take a measurement of the distance between the converter and flexplate (with the converter pushed all the way against the pump) before you bolted them together?

thunderstruck507

iTrader: (18)

I am fairly certain it was measured...it's been in the car for at least 3 years but I seem to remember looking up specs and checking it.

I bet it has 80-100 passes at the track along with all the street abuse it sees. Fluid and filter have been changed several times.

The only change was the recent addition of the Sonax HD 2-3 shift valve but even that was several months and couple track trips ago.

thunderstruck507

iTrader: (18)

Got the transmission apart this morning.

Pump is ruined as expected
3-4 clutch pack had 2 clutches which were in the metal for quite some time, the rest are worn
band has quite a bit of flaking on the ends, the rest is heavy black
one of the brass bushings had heavy heavy wear

Everything else looks good as new. Plan is to clean everything and replace the parts above along with new gaskets, seals, bearings, etc.


Questions:

I know the Borg Warner HE clutches seem to be the go to now, mine were Alto Red Eagle. I had 9 clutches. I see above most run 7 or 8. Any advice on this? My dad said he remembers setting them up tight.

What band is the go to? Mine is the Alto wide Red Eagle. I see upgrades are also available from Sonax, BW, Raybestos, etc...

mrvedit

Some builders here firmly believe that 7 frictions gives the best durability; others prefer 9, and many think 8. With a stock input drum, I've documented 8 and I know many readers have been very happy with these specs:

8 Friction setup
----------------

.215 Apply (GM part #24217451)
8x .067 Friction BW Hi-Energy or Raybestos GPZ105
7x .078 Kolene steel (TranStar part #74120AK)
.157 Backing
.092 Snap ring (stock)

==> .038 to 0.040 dry clearance (about .032 wet)

Have one or two same-brand .080" frictions available to tighten the clearance if needed.

Builder/member Dynamic396 has convinced me of the importance of replacing the apply plate with each rebuild, or at least measuring that it has less than .001" of coning. Replacement is good insurance for $12.

Builder/member carlsonauto convinced me that the 3/4 clutch clearance needs to be increased for Red or Blue frictions to avoid premature wear.
Also, instead of thinking overall clearance, you should think clearance per friction. From what I have been told the suggested clearance per friction are:
Hi-Energy (Brown) - .003 to .007 per friction (wet)
Performance (Red) - .004 to .007 per friction
Super-HP Blue - .005 to .008 per friction

Therefore, while the total clearance with 7 Hi-Energy friction might be as low as .025, with 8 Blue frictions the total clearance should be around .050. The Blue frictions are soft and sticky and you don't want them wearing on the steels when the clutch is NOT applied.

Here is a thread on the subject:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...n-problem.html

thunderstruck507

iTrader: (18)

I found a post from Vince at FLT where he said they set theirs up at .015" wet. Any thoughts on the tighter clearance?

Probably going to go back with the Alto wide red band unless someone has a better suggestion. Maybe the carbon instead?

mrvedit

Personally I would not aim for such a tight clearance, but if there were a particular set of frictions and steels you wanted to use and the clearance ended up that tight, then it might be OK. Sometimes these tight clearances sound like a contest of my "xxx is tighter than yours".

I don't know much about band materials. Who does? IIRC Kevlar ones require more pressure to hold than others. Or it is Carbon? Hopefully someone can give you a good recommendation. Any wide band requires that the Reverse drum be new or in perfect condition. IIRC, some builder even sand it with e.g. 600 to give it more bite into the band. That sounds tricky for us amateurs.

carlsonauto

My personal preference is the kevlar band. They seem to grab the best under the most extreme conditions. A lot of guys won't use them because they make the shift feel too firm under normal driving conditions. I have good luck with them and they don't shift too firm if you set everything up correctly.

I would run a high energy stock band before I ran an alto wide red band..... thats my .02