4L60e limits, other options
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Teching In
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4L60e limits, other options I have been lurking for a long time on this site and have found some helpful info, but I need a little direction as to the best route to take my build I am planning. I am not well versed outside of GM Ecotecs.
I have a 2.0L LNF(Solstice GXP) and I am mating a 4L60e to it with an adapter plate. 5l40e are a direct bolt on but it is cost prohibitive and I am concerned with reliability and availability of performance parts down the road.
I am going to grab a low mileage trans from a yard and rebuild or run it as is if it'll hold up. Will a 4l60e hold up to about 400wtq/hp? 7200rpms? I need to make sure it can handle revs because it will see 7k every time I drive. Car will see track with slicks, but will not exceed 450wtq/hp. What needs to be done to ensure it'll hold up? Model year recommendations? I understand V6/V8 doesn't determine reliability, but does that limit TC options? I spool by 3700rpms, car weighs ~3000lbs. Thanks.
I have a 2.0L LNF(Solstice GXP) and I am mating a 4L60e to it with an adapter plate. 5l40e are a direct bolt on but it is cost prohibitive and I am concerned with reliability and availability of performance parts down the road.
I am going to grab a low mileage trans from a yard and rebuild or run it as is if it'll hold up. Will a 4l60e hold up to about 400wtq/hp? 7200rpms? I need to make sure it can handle revs because it will see 7k every time I drive. Car will see track with slicks, but will not exceed 450wtq/hp. What needs to be done to ensure it'll hold up? Model year recommendations? I understand V6/V8 doesn't determine reliability, but does that limit TC options? I spool by 3700rpms, car weighs ~3000lbs. Thanks.
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From: Ann Arbor, MI
A junk yard 4L60E may or may not hold up for long.
I would at least rebuild it with high RPM parts provided in the Transgo HD2 kit - springs in the input drum and a spring in the pump.
Unless you have auto trans rebuild experience, it might be best to buy one from one of the sponsors - FLT, RPM or Performabuilt. Their Level 2 or 3 should be plenty, but talk to them.
I would at least rebuild it with high RPM parts provided in the Transgo HD2 kit - springs in the input drum and a spring in the pump.
Unless you have auto trans rebuild experience, it might be best to buy one from one of the sponsors - FLT, RPM or Performabuilt. Their Level 2 or 3 should be plenty, but talk to them.
Thread Starter
Teching In
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Thanks. What 4l60e has the tail housing with the 3 bolt holes for the torque arm? This would be ideal to utilize the stock torque arm the Solstice has. This limits me to a 4 bolt tail housing right? What is the end year for the 4 bolt and can I mount that tail housing to any 4 bolt 4l60e? I am limited to GM V8 bell pattern with my adapter plate. 4.3l S10/Blazer trans are plentiful here.
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From: Ann Arbor, MI
I don't yet know the details of what years have 4 bolt versus 6 bolt tail housings. Until you mentioned it and I started researching it, I thought all '98+ were 6 bolt, but perhaps I am wrong.
I do see a few 6 bolt torque arm tail housings on ebay, but they seem to be rare and/or expensive.
I do see a few 6 bolt torque arm tail housings on ebay, but they seem to be rare and/or expensive.
Last edited by mrvedit; Oct 9, 2015 at 10:08 AM.
Thread Starter
Teching In
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I have not ironed out the TCM. I am not sure how to make it work with hpt and the e69 at this point or if I should consider a standalone... Worst case I will go full manual if I don't think its worth the hassle and $$$.
TECH Junkie
Joined: Dec 2012
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From: Iowa
Are you doing your own rebuild or having a shop do it? If you're comfortable, you can build a hell of a trans for pretty cheap.
I'd do:
"The beast" sunshell
29 element sprag
10 or 13 vane pump
3-4 z pak clutches
"corvette" servo
HD2 shift kit
5 pinion planetaries
Borg warner or Raybestos red 1-2 clutches
Molded rubber apply pistons
Teflon one piece shaft seals
Wide (carbon is best) 2-4 bands
If you do it yourself, that stuff should all drop right in no problem and shouldn't hurt the pocketbook too bad.
That'll probably be good to somewhere in the 525-550 range.
As far as revs go, new bushings (especially thrust bearings/bushing) and a good torque converter should keep everything safe.
I'd do:
"The beast" sunshell
29 element sprag
10 or 13 vane pump
3-4 z pak clutches
"corvette" servo
HD2 shift kit
5 pinion planetaries
Borg warner or Raybestos red 1-2 clutches
Molded rubber apply pistons
Teflon one piece shaft seals
Wide (carbon is best) 2-4 bands
If you do it yourself, that stuff should all drop right in no problem and shouldn't hurt the pocketbook too bad.
That'll probably be good to somewhere in the 525-550 range.
As far as revs go, new bushings (especially thrust bearings/bushing) and a good torque converter should keep everything safe.
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From: Ann Arbor, MI
MaroonMonster's suggestions and comments are good, although two slightly better options are now available:
* If you use the Sonnax Smart Shell, you don't need 5 pinion planetaries.
* For the 3/4 clutch use 7 or 8 frictions - Borg Warner HiEnergy is now used by most pro builders; no longer the Z-Pak:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...hes-4l60e.html
Note: A wide band is desirable, but you generally then also need a new Reverse drum.
As he mentions, these improvements don't cost that much over a basic rebuild kit. If you purchase a 4L65E rebuild kit, it will even have the 7 friction 3/4 clutch parts.
The HD2 kit will give you all the high RPM parts.
As he mentions, new bushings and torrington bearings are essential for a quality rebuild.
If you want to step up for there, follow this thread:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...ld-thread.html
* If you use the Sonnax Smart Shell, you don't need 5 pinion planetaries.
* For the 3/4 clutch use 7 or 8 frictions - Borg Warner HiEnergy is now used by most pro builders; no longer the Z-Pak:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...hes-4l60e.html
Note: A wide band is desirable, but you generally then also need a new Reverse drum.
As he mentions, these improvements don't cost that much over a basic rebuild kit. If you purchase a 4L65E rebuild kit, it will even have the 7 friction 3/4 clutch parts.
The HD2 kit will give you all the high RPM parts.
As he mentions, new bushings and torrington bearings are essential for a quality rebuild.
If you want to step up for there, follow this thread:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...ld-thread.html
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From: Fort Worth, Texas
I don't yet know the details of what years have 4 bolt versus 6 bolt tail housings. Until you mentioned it and I started researching it, I thought all '98+ were 6 bolt, but perhaps I am wrong.
I do see a few 6 bolt torque arm tail housings on ebay, but they seem to be rare and/or expensive.
I do see a few 6 bolt torque arm tail housings on ebay, but they seem to be rare and/or expensive.
Your correct, All '98-'02 & up F-body 4L60E's have a 6-bolt tail housings, Even the V6 245mm 4L60E's.
'82-'95 F-body 700R4/4L60E's have a 4-bolt tail housings with the "large" VSS sensor hole. This would the easiest to find.
'96/'97 F-body 4L60E's have a 4-bolt tail housings with the "small" VSS sensor hole, This is the rarest one.
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From: Ann Arbor, MI
Not sure what kind of PCM/TCM you are using, but if it can control a '98 4L60E, it can also control any '96 through '07 4L60E/4L65E/4L70E. Later models have some durability improvements and likely fewer miles.
Thread Starter
Teching In
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I picked up a low mileage '98 SS trans. I know my application is different, but can you guys suggest a converter? Can I grab an off the shelf? What is the basic info you'd need about my car to help?
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From: Ann Arbor, MI
A Trailblazer SS converter probably has the highest stall of any stock GM converter. Maybe 2300 in your lighter Camaro.
(Correction - see below, the Trailblazer 6 cylinder converter has the highest stall.)
Read some of the recent converter threads here; a bunch in just the last 2 weeks.
Consensus is to avoid the under-$400 converters as they are just rebuilt GM V6 converters with a weak lockup clutch.
Sponsor FTI and also PTC have some decent converter just over $400.
Sponsor CircleD has a good converter at around $500.
Sponsors CircleD and Yank have very good converters at $750-$800.
After people finally upgrade to a good converter, they regret having wasted money on a cheap converter before. In short, skip the cheap ones and buy a good one even if you have to save up a bit for it.
(Correction - see below, the Trailblazer 6 cylinder converter has the highest stall.)
Read some of the recent converter threads here; a bunch in just the last 2 weeks.
Consensus is to avoid the under-$400 converters as they are just rebuilt GM V6 converters with a weak lockup clutch.
Sponsor FTI and also PTC have some decent converter just over $400.
Sponsor CircleD has a good converter at around $500.
Sponsors CircleD and Yank have very good converters at $750-$800.
After people finally upgrade to a good converter, they regret having wasted money on a cheap converter before. In short, skip the cheap ones and buy a good one even if you have to save up a bit for it.
Last edited by mrvedit; Oct 21, 2015 at 01:45 PM.
Thread Starter
Teching In
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Sounds good I will dig a bit more and check with a sponsor. Def not going to skimp on a converter because this whole project to is make sure I drop a ton of time and have a good consistent car. I did get the stock converter with it, but I am assuming it won't be ideal for my power band since I make very little power in low rpms. I am just using it to make an adapter plate for the ecotec flex.
TECH Junkie
Joined: Dec 2012
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From: Iowa
The converter from an inline 6 trailblazer is actually what stalls highest (^^v6 might've been a typo?). Its a smaller diameter converter but shares the same bolt pattern. The smaller rotating mass helps it stall higher. However, being smaller diameter, it has a smaller lockup clutch. If you're doing trans tuning, you can make this converter last by disabling lockup in all gears except 4th when you want to cruise. Also, increasing the apply stiffness will help it engage strong. It will feel rougher when the clutch locks up but when it's smooth, it slips the clutch which kills its life. You can get these converters for ~$125 from most transmission supply warehouses. If you're really on a tight budget, with tuning you can make it live, however, i'd still recommend going with an aftermarket converter that uses a larger and better lockup clutch.
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From: Ann Arbor, MI
Thank you for info on the Trailblazer converter and correcting my reference to the SS version. I will correct my earlier post.
Obviously the Trailblazer 6-cylinder converter doesn't compare to e.g. something from Yank or CircleD, but might be available for next to nothing.
Obviously the Trailblazer 6-cylinder converter doesn't compare to e.g. something from Yank or CircleD, but might be available for next to nothing.
TECH Junkie
Joined: Dec 2012
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From: Iowa
Absolutely agree.
I'd use it as something to hold me over (with proper tuning and a less heavy foot) until I could splurge on a billet front, big stall converter. It would give you some time to drive it around and get some tuning done. Also, it'd give you a decent feel for how you like a stall converter and help you decide how big you really want to go.
In a light car making decent power, it should stall to around 2800 rpm which is pretty good for a factory converter imo
I'd use it as something to hold me over (with proper tuning and a less heavy foot) until I could splurge on a billet front, big stall converter. It would give you some time to drive it around and get some tuning done. Also, it'd give you a decent feel for how you like a stall converter and help you decide how big you really want to go.
In a light car making decent power, it should stall to around 2800 rpm which is pretty good for a factory converter imo