GNGUY

iTrader: (3)

Looking for any input on a perf. Trans for a full weight 2000 Camaro with a 370 and small supercharger.

A little bit about myself:
I have been building my own transmissions for many years and want to give one a try with the newest upgrades on the market and see how it works out. I build 3-4 4L60E's a year for friends and family and have had excellent luck in the stock form with the orange box shift kit and the standard light duty upgrades ( shift kit, servo setup, aluminum pistons, 8 clutch 3-4, etc ) . They have been installed mainly in street rods, light duty trucks and cars with ~400 fwhp or less and none of them are dedicated drag cars or on stickies. My go to build for anything over that has always been a TH400 and if they want OD, I go with the 4L80E and have had great success with them and feel I have a pretty good grasp on what to do in that arena.


This car is going to be full weight 2000 camaro with a forged 370 and either a Maggie 2.9 or something with roughly the same potential power adder. I want to try the 4L60E out just to see if it will handle the torque and live with me building it. I am not a poor guy but am mindful to spend money where it counts and am willing to spend the dough to give it one solid effort to convince myself that it can be done and be reliable. If that is the case, It could save some swap out headaches in some vehicles that need to be massaged for the 4L80E swap.

Trust me when I say this, I have no doubt the 4L80E is a MUCH tougher trans in all respects and am not here to argue or discuss the merits of swapping one. I have done many and it is one of my favorite trans to work on but I do believe that the 60E has some potential in some applications that would be more beneficial.

With all of that being said, I have committed to try one of these out with what I see as the possible fixes to make one live. I realize some of this may be overkill for what I am going to do with it but I have always used the "better safe than sorry" mentality and my old Fat *** does not like pulling trannies for ***** and giggles....

So, here is what I have researched and felt that would be good options so far.

* 2004 Core in pretty good shape.
* paper and rubber kit
* BW clutch and steel kit
* New AC Delco Checkball assy for the case / servo
* BW OD and low roller
* New Torrington bearing set and bushing set
* Alto Carbon wide 2-4 band
* New aluminum pistons for case and VB
* Sonnax 2nd and 4th billet servo setup rather than the corvette setup.
* New AC Delco reverse input drum for the new wide band
* Sonnax Smart Shell
* Sonnax HD input drum with hardened sonnax shaft
* Transgo HD2 shift kit
* Sonnax HP pump slide spring
* new 13 vane pump kit
* Transgo Plate ( mine was beat all to hell )
* New Solenoid Kit with new Wiring harness ( all AC Delco )

Have since added:

* Sonnax 2-3 HD shift valve (Thanks Mrvedit )
* Sonnax LB1 .490 boost valve ( seems they are a little better quality than the ones in the HD2 kit from Transgo).
* Billet 13 vane pump kit * (Thanks Mrvedit)
* Billet output shaft.....



here are the questions / concerns I have for anyone that has built these for a street car:

1) I have read that a lot of people are drilling the 2nd and 3rd feed hole to .125 instead of the transgo recommendations fr a stalled car ( mine should be a 3400-3600 stall ). I have no issue doing this on 4th as I dont think you can really overdo it but I just want a nice crisp shift during daily driving and that shift firmness to increase during WOT shifts, What I DO NOT WANT is neck snapping teeth chattering shifts during cruises.

Any real world experience on a good happy medium on hole sizes with a Street driven car and 3400-3600 stall?

2) I have chosen and prefer the BW High Energy 3-4 frictions and setup for a 8 or 9 clutch pack in the new smart drum. I have had good luck with this setup in the stock configurations with a combo of kolene steels and either raybestos or BW HE clutches. I will not run a Z pack again so please no recommendations on that fiasco...

Does this seem feasable?
I am shooting for around .005 per friction clearance with the HE clutches.

3) Any particular recommendations on the input / output shaft endplay over stock recommendations?

4) Is a Billet 10 Vane rotor guide something worth fretting over or will the stock one live around 6500rpm and ~600rwhp?


As always, thanks for your input and having a great site with great folks!

mrvedit

I'll give more input when I have more time, but that looks like an excellent set of upgrades. It is almost identical to what I am running. The additional items I have are:
1. Billet output shaft - since the trans multiplies torque in 1st and 2nd gear, a billet output shaft is suggested before a billet input shaft.
2. I also have the billet input shaft.
3. Billet 13 vane pump rotor - contact Chuck at FLT for one.
4. Custom set of parts from both the Transgo and Sonnax shift kits.

EDIT: You definitely should add the Sonnax HD 2-3 shift valve to protect the forward sprag while racing in D3.

I'll give you more input on drilling the separator plate later.

clinebarger

.086"-.093" is the biggest I go for the 2nd feed hole, With the Sonnax 2nd piston it will hit pretty hard!
I like the 3rd feed hole around .100"-.116".

4th....Like you said....Does it really matter? Though the 4th super hold works well & gives a noticeable 3-4 shift. My 3-4 shift in my Camaro is real nice with a super hold & a .093" 4th feed hold, Though I am running a stock truck (TMBX) converter, With a high stall..... .125" would be fine.

When drilling bigger feed orifices, It is easy to get carried away. As an example lets say the stock 2nd feed hole is .075", Drilling it to .093" gives a 50% increase in area..... That is a huge increase!


Borg Warner Hi-Energy 3-4's all the way! Though I have good luck with Raybestos GPZ frictions also, (Not the Z-pack), GPZ is just their line of performance Hi-Energy frictions.

I would run the 8 stack in the Smart Drum, .067" frictions & .095" steels.. It will take heat/cycling better than .062" frictions & .077" steels.
I like about .025"-.030" clearance.

Sonnax has their rear end-play recommendation in the Smart Shell instructions, Use factory specs for the front.

I have great luck with stock 10 vane rotors with Trans Go (High Rev) pump rings.

I am not very fond of the TG HD-2 shift kit, Mostly the Boost Valve, The machining is downright sloppy! The steel sleeve will eat the Pump Bore over time, The Boost valve will not pass a simple vacuum test, Dip the Boost Valve in ATF, Place it in the Sleeve, Hold your finger over the EPC reaction hole (Bottom hole), Hold the Boost Valve assembly upside down, The Valve should not fall out.

The TCC PWM delete valve they use puts Line Pressure to the Converter Clutch. (No regulation) which is about double what it needs. Converter failures have happened because of this, Most people assume its the converter at fault, Most times it is not. This also the case with the orange box SK you have been using. But will not destroy a converter as easily with a stock .470" boost valve, Installing a .500 boost valve changes things.

If you don't have to hold gears manually, I would avoid the HD-2 & buy a Sonnax Performance Pack. You could just use the "Gear Command" parts out of the HD-2 & Use the entire Sonnax shift kit.

***These are just my opinions, I have quite a few years building transmissions for a living, If someone has other opinions fine! I am all for learning new things & discussion....Even a friendly debate. Please No name calling, Pissing matches, Chest thumping....I am to old for that stuff***

GNGUY

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the Info! I have ordered the 2-3 shift valve already, will call FLT tomorrow and see about the pump gears.

GNGUY

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the input! I should have listed that I have purchased a Sonnax boost valve to replace the Transgo, I whole heartedly agree.

I may reconsider the HD2 kit or mat use a combination of the two...

drew408

If you're a real GN guy,why not use the stronger 200r4??

Any good trans builder will tell you a 200r4 is a much better unit than a 4l60/65/70

Although it does take a good builder who knows what they're doing to get one to live.

GNGUY

iTrader: (3)

True GNGUY,
Well, I have several GN's one with a Girdled 109 with about 9K worth of engine upgrades. It is my favorite car, not my favorite engine, I am not a purist but have left one in stock form, the rest will ALL get an LS engine and a 4L80E or possibly a 4L60E.

As for a good trans builder on the 200, I agree, they take some extra tricks and my build has held up for 3 years behind my 109 with quite a few upgrades. Do I believe they are stronger in stock form than a stock 4L60E.........Eh, jury is still out on that one, not going to get into that pissing contest. What they have had is a better choice of quality upgrade components that will make them a hell of a unit. I dont like the TV cable, lack of computer tuning ability, lack of good rebuildable cores ( getting worse every day to find), good valve bodies are getting scarce, etc.

On the other hand, the 60E's and their cousins have had many iterations that have all had inherant flaws that would not allow them to hold moderate torque until recently. That is why I am building this one now, we will see. If it does not hold, I will revert back to the best option in my humble opinion, the 80E for OD and a TH400 for a 3 speed. What they do have going for them is:

*Cores are everywhere

*Cores are Cheap

*Tons of quality parts to upgrade them now that seem to be working ( not so 10 years ago )

* computer tuning capabilities

* Did I mention cores are readily available and Cheap!

mrvedit

Excellent advice from Clinebarger!
I'm currently using 9 GPZ frictions in my Sonnax input drum. And same .005 per friction (.045" total) as the OP is planning on.
I like the TG 1-2 accumulator springs (with 1 washer) for a firmer shift than the Sonnax Performance pack provides. Just remember that the TG springs only work with a stock aluminum piston and not the Sonnax Pinless piston. (Dana has documented how to modify the Pinless piston to work with the TG springs, but that is extra work.)
Agree on the boost valve - I use the Sonnax boost valve with its O-rings.
IIRC, I have .093 for the 2nd feed hole and around .110 for the 3rd. Using the Sonnax Torlon *****.
Personally I see no reason for the "Gear Command" parts unless you want to accidentally overrev your engine; I always suggest leaving that out. Of course I have HP Tuners and can tune the trans shifting the way I want.

Wow, we are really on the same page here!

GNGUY

iTrader: (3)

Thanks a million guys, I hate having to remove the plate and re drill so these hole sizes really help save me some time. I really appreciate the input and advice.

Curious to know What stall are you running in yours? Part throttle shifts are nice and crisp?

mrvedit

I have deleted some posts that became adversarial.
Therefore in this thread, anything that goes off topic or become adversarial will be deleted and the poster given a time-out. Be warned.
However, questions, suggestions, experiences, information on the topic of building a stronger 4L60E/4L65E/4L70E are all welcome.

bbond105

I seem to remember Dana saying that he had some wider forward sprag assemblies. I know the sprag is a weak spot and the Sonnax 2-3 HD shift valve will help protect the sprag but is the wider sprag any stronger than the 29 element BW? I haven’t seen Dana on here in a while but maybe he could jump in.

GNGUY

iTrader: (3)

That is interesting, I have not come across the wide sprag in my research and would be interested in seeing that.

Thanks for the info.

redtan

iTrader: (5)

I've heard good things about this for keeping the 3-4 clutches alive. Are these still the weakpoint or is it something else?

GNGUY

iTrader: (3)

I am not real sure right now if fixing this problem is not going to move issues somewhere else yet. I do hear a lot of good reviews on using the drum or at a minimum the sleeve kit. This is supposed to stop the spline strip / break area on the input shaft which I have only personally seem once ( stock shaft ) in a big tire 4 x 4 truck that should have never had this setup in to begin with.

For me, the biggest advantage of this drum is the pressure plate. I have been doing larger stacks in the 3-4 for a long time due to heat buildup. When you do that, it requires thinner pressure plates / steel combo's to accomplish ( or at least the way I was doing it ). The thinner pressure plate and snap ring only exaggerated the "coning" that was happening already when you raise the line pressure to help apply quicker..... to reduce the heat..... and the merry go round and around and around,( mainly why i quit trying to build them for higher torque applications years ago ). This should, and I am hoping, will help that significantly. On the ones I have had come back in, have almost always had a 3-4 pack issue. This is ( in my opinion ) partially due to the stress on the drum to shaft seal area and the coning of the steels and pressure plate. The heavier bolt on pressure plate looks really good in theory and seems to be holding up pretty well according to the nerd net.

If it fixes these two issues, I will be happy......

redtan

iTrader: (5)

I keep hearing about the sleeved input drums, what exactly is that?

I'm mainly looking at builds from FLT, Performabuilt and RPM Transmissions. The latter 2 only have the sonnax drum as part of their top of the line builds (eg. $5000+). Even the lower builds that cost in excess of 3 and 4k do not have it but instead have the "sleeved input drum" thing. Must be something decent if these places are using those in most of their top tier builds.

Only FLT has the sonnax as an option for mid-tier builds which is why I'm leaning that way, but if the sleeved one is just as good then I might reconsider.

mrvedit

It is the Sonnax "Input Drum Reinforcement Kit" - part # 77733-51K.
http://www.sonnax.com/parts/3600

This is their second, improved model which works with the newer style steel molded forward piston. The kit includes a custom overrun piston

The original model 77733-01K required the old style aluminum forward piston. When ordering it, be sure you are getting the newer model.

Even an input drum which is not broken at the input shaft might start to get loose and leak the precious 3/4 clutch fluid. Therefore, this part should be considered a necessity for any performance build.
Note that the Sonnax Smart Tech input drum includes this kit.

GNGUY

iTrader: (3)

I never realized this had the potential to leak as bad as it does until about 3 months ago, I stopped by one of my buddies shop to pick up a couple of parts. When I walked up to his build table to talk to him, he was basically in very sprited agrument with his local GM parts dealer. He had 4 brand new GM input drums sitting on his bench. After he got off the phone, I asked him what was going on and he showed me. When the drum was loaded and setup, turn it over where the input drum is pointing up. take the selective washer and bearing out of the drum. place a small amount of ATF in the pocket where the bearing sits. Now apply your regulated air to the input feed holes to apply the clutch pack. I can't remember exactly how much he was using, I want to say 90 pounds but i may be wrong...

Anyway, when he would apply the air to check the clutch packs, "air bubbles" immediately started coming between the shaft and aluminum drum. 2 of the 4 new drums were horribly bad and the other two had small bubbles. According to him, he has had many issues with the new drums and was arguing with his parts rep. about how horrible they were. So we started talking and I thought the air leaks on two were "tolerable" but two of them should have never been used. I think......in my humble opinion, it has a lot to do with how the shafts are pressed into the drums that causes the leaks. Not necessarily the press fit but the quality of the press process read "hencho in Mexico" on the box.

We decided to do a test and pulled about 6 used drums of various years of 4L60,65 and 70E's that he had laying around and did the same test. Some held perfectly, some were VERY loose and some just had a small leak, just like the brand new ones. This started me thinking about the "Sleeve" sonnax started making. I had already liked the bolt on apply plate but the sleeve would help reinforce this area and keep the splined area from getting any worse. My friend had started pressing the new shafts out and using a sealer between the two areas on the units that had small leaks but this seamed to be a band aid to me but has worked well for him.

This is when I started doing some research and made my own sleeve out of some stainless tube I had to experiment with. I have a mill and Lathe so i just cut a sleeve with a .001 interference fit I could press on it to see if it would stop a leak in addition to reinforcing the area. I took the sleeve over to my buddies shop and we took one of his junk drums that had a fair leak but not horrible. We did nothing more than press the sleeve onto the drum around the splined area and blocked the hole to feed the piston and re tested, The leak was gone....


Keep in mind that these test were no very scientific and we did not document anything, just trying to come up with a solution to a problem we were experiencing so i hope this info helps someone else down the road. We have all known that the 3-4 burnup has been one of the achiles heels on any of these transmissions since inception.

I really think that with the splines reinforced and the apply plate bolted on, Sonnax has hit on a good product. That is when I decided to build a 4L60E for my 2000 Camaro project, just to see if it would hold up. I had been out of the performance mod side of these units for a while and needed some input hence the thread.

mrvedit

^^^ Very interesting! It confirms some of my suspicions about why these transmission repeatedly and quickly fail after rebuilds.
There are many posts here by members who's stock transmission held up for 100K+ miles before the 3/4 clutch burnt up. Then after a rebuild by what they thought was reputable shop, the trans only lasted a few thousand miles before again burning up the 3/4 clutch.
I therefore suspected that shops were not addressing all the places where the 3/4 fluid can leak, in particular the 3rd accumulator check ball cartridge and this part of the input shaft.

Your info reinforces my suspicion that these repeated/quick fails are due to a leak in the input drum where the input shaft enters.

Therefore the "Input Drum Reinforcement Kit" should be considered a necessary upgrade for all rebuilds. The new version with the billet overrun piston is about $80, but might significantly help longevity after a rebuild.

redtan

iTrader: (5)

Definitely, but how much better is the full aftermarket input drum assembly vs. just the reinforcement kit?

GNGUY

iTrader: (3)

Keep in mind, I do not do these on a daily basis and by no means anywhere close to a Guru but I have built well over 100 of them through my days. With that being said, after my research, I will use the sleeve kit at a minimum with a stock or near stock type build with mildly increased line pressure to help with the leaking area.

For anything with a significantly higher line pressure and / or additional clutches, I will use the complete drum. I will say this though, It will be interesting to see. If the sleeve can fix the leaking issues, the addition of more clutches in the 3-4 pack may not be needed to the extent I have thought in the past. As said above, its funny that a lot of these transmissions lasted for 100 to 200K miles in original form and in many instances only last months after a rebuild with new boost valves, shift kits etc. A lot of that is due to worn valves, bores, spacer plates etc that I thought I had addressed. But now, I also believe that a lot of it has to do with the input shaft to spline area leaking that I never caught before.

This is just my own thoughts and observations / opinions.