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Attempt #3 at starting a new thread, hope this works. This message pertains to a 4L65E out of an '06 Cadillac Escalade ESV that has been rebuilt, ran fine for a few miles then all of the sudden won't shift out of 1st. This is my 4th trans rebuild, others were 4L60E that are still in operation. I have searched countless days and hours looking for information on the 4L65E, wiring schematics, code readers etc to troubleshoot this issue. Story begins back in March, when my father-in-law and I rebuilt this unit for a friend to try and save him some money. I should've left this one to the pro's because the 5 pinion sprag blew apart and the tranny was full of metal. Several part were replaced including the sun shell and the reverse input drum. I know I'm going to forget something so I fully expect questions to respond to before getting to the root cause. A complete disassembly of every component was done, including the pump, VB and of course all applicable components. We installed the Trans-go shift kit which included drilling out the separator plate in several locations. We did not re-install the filters on the separator plate as it was told to us by a local shop, they're not needed if you keep your fluid clean and they do collapse causing pressure issues. So we haven't on any of the rebuilds so far. Removed all the plastic pistons and replaced w/ the upgraded aluminum, but did not go with the Corvette servo. Replaced several of the springs in the VB as indicated by the Transgo shift kit. I believe there were 4 springs and shim plate for the Servo mentioned above. Installed the Sonnax boost valve in the pump along w/ new vanes and cage (probably not the technical term). Replaced the pressure control solenoid on the VB as suggested by the Transtar sales guy, also where we purchased all of the parts. Replaced the torque convertor w/ a remanf stock unit. Reassembled with all new components, making sure to pre-lube all seals & O-rings. The 3-4 plate clearance was right at .060". Everything went back together and the tranny ran great for a week, including a trip down to Florida at which it decided to fail and not shift out of 1st.
Since then, we've opened it back up, found 3-4 fibers toasted and a 4 tanged brass bushing that rides against the sun shell damaged. We found out later that there is an upgraded sun shell that uses a thrust bearing in place of this washer in which the 4 holes on the sun shell were removed. The ATSG manual mentioned nothing of this, I just happen to see it in a You Tube video. So we replaced the brass bushing with the bearing after complete disassembly, clean-up and inspection of all seals and O-rings. I failed to mention earlier that we air checked all the plate engagements with compressed air and they appeared to be cycling fine. We did find some spools in the VB hanging up a little so we fly lapped the ports until they moved freely, we're thinking this may have caused the failure during the Florida trip.
Test drive - Now after reassembly, we ran it on the lift and it shift in all the gears just fine. Took it down the road and it shifted in all the gears just fine for about 5-7 miles. After the 10th stop and go, the transmission decided not to shift into 2nd. We've had it out several times since and its shifted in to 2nd maybe twice but were up to 3,000 or 3500 rpms when it does. Unfortunately we don't have a Tech 2 or an expensive code reader to monitor the solenoids. We're not sure where to go from here other than take it to a local shop to have it hooked up to their scan tool. Any help is greatly appreciated as we've now had this thing for another month trying to diagnose it.
Thanks,
Matt
Did you use the matching reaction carrier to go with the sunshell and bearing? Just wondering.
If you fly lapped (whatever that means) the valve body bores you probably ruined it, and the reason it works sometimes is because the fluid is thick when cold. When it heats up and thins out it leaks past the valves since they were fly lapped.
You ever replace the converter?
Flush or replace the cooler?
You had metal contamination, theres metal everywhere theres fluid. Then you left the screens out. Metal will ruin brand new parts.
If you don't take it to a pro, start over by disassembling everything. Get a new valve body since you probably ruined the bores. Get a unused converter (meaning new or rebuilt/remanufactured)
Get a new stand alone cooler. Flush any lines reused. Get all new electronics and harness.
Or throw random parts at it and ask the same questions over many forums on the internet. This is what usually happens.
We used the same reaction carrier that was used in the case which was used by another builder from 2009. There was a tag glued to the case w/ their company name.
The bearing appeared to fit nicely over it and wasn't informed there was an upgrade for this.
I apologize for the non-technical term "fly lap", as this was the term my father-in-law used, so I ran with it. I would consider it honing the spool bore but he said it was something that they had to do at Allison's when the transmissions wouldn't pass test inspections due to a sticking spool. I assumed if it was an acceptable practice at Allison's, then it would be acceptable here. Aside from just replacing the VB, can I not test this some how to eliminate it from being " ruined"?
So as I mentioned in the earlier post, I knew I would forget something and I clearly did. After completely disassembling the components, we pressure washed the housing, used compressed air to dry it, making sure to clean out every hole, orifice, threaded bore etc. Then we ran it through the parts cleaner, repeating the drying process. This was also done for each component that we were going to re-use. I also failed to mention that we used compressed air to backflush the cooling lines and cooler. Then we ran fresh fluid through it, in an attempt to flush as much lose material as we possible could. This is where we felt we could've gone one step further and replaced the cooler, until we researched it and found that this Cadillac used the radiator and an auxiliary cooler for tranny cooling. Not all Cad's do but this one does per VIN confirmed with dealership.
I also failed to mention that we did replace the torque converter with a remanufactured one purchased through Trans Star.
I'm going to attempt to pressure check the housing this weekend as that is one thing I have not done. I'm also thinking about replacing the electrical harness and all the solenoids as it is cheaper than running a diagnostics at the local tranny shop. I wish there were a less expensive scan tool that works specifically on transmissions. The only scanners we have are a cheap Actron wired straight to the device and a Bosch Bluetooth 1050, mostly good for MIL codes.
Jay, I'm sure you see a lot of weekend warriors posting ridiculous requests on here. And I don't claim to be a professional mechanic, but I am trying to save a friend some money as he was recently blackballed by his now ex-wife who took everything he had. If I didn't think I couldn't help him out, I would've never attempted it. I will continue to research and troubleshoot this problem to its entirety even if I have to buy him parts myself.
If I can get the pics to post I will send.
Thanks for your response.
Random thoughts:
The screens. Leave them out as long as you keep the fluid clean? If you put them in they won't clog if you keep the fluid clean.
I guess you used the SK kit? the HD2 comes with a boost valve.
You say you had a four tang brass thrust washer that was damaged and you replaced it with a bearing and new design sunshell. Problem with that is you need the matching reaction carrier. I'll get pictures since I have these parts for when I take the trans out of my truck. These can be mismatched and it will fail. I can only assume your endplay would be very off also.
How about rechecking the sealing rings for the 2nd servo? If the ends don't go together right it won't seal, it might at first.
I don't work on cars for a living, I made this decision in high school 30 years ago because I don't want to work all day and be tired of it. So I do this for fun, I like to work on transmissions. I've done it all except machine shop work (boring, etc).
One thing I have seen in what I do for a living and with people working on their own stuff is they don't know when to give up. Auto mechanics do this all day long. They know what to look for. Just like what I do for a living, I know what the problem is as soon as I hear the failure symptoms. My point is, at some point you're going to exceed your "money savings" and end up spending more attempting a repair than what it would cost to just stop now and have someone fix it. I know, you're offended by that probably, everyone gets offended when advice is given to take it to someone, no matter that it may actually save them money. I see this all the time.
I go to help people who have failed at fixing their stuff, they love to tell me what the problem is and what they did. I ask why they did what they did and come to the conclusion that what they worked on has absolutely nothing to do with the original symptoms. And they don't want to see me work on something else because they're dead set on focusing on what they think is the problem. People get tunnel vision and focus on what they were told or whatever and totally miss the problem. My point here is that you're tearing this down and every time you're missing the same thing.
Last edited by Jays_SSZ28; 05-17-2018 at 07:32 PM.
This is the reaction carrier. It's strange that you say you replaced the four tang washer and sunshell with a bearing and sunshell, said nothing about changing the reaction shaft. This is a bearing type on the left and thrust washer type on the right.
WHAT WAS THE FRONT AND REAR ENDPLAY???
It will take a lot to offend me. I grew up fighting the good fight. For whatever reason it won’t let me post pics but the reaction on the left is exactly what was in there. I’m speculating the company that rebuilt it in 2009, had the upgraded components, sun gear with no perforations and updated reaction, but used the 4 tang bushing. We noticed the end play was not quite where we wanted it with the bushing but didn’t understand why. After finding out about the bearing, our endplay met spec. As you stated a professional builder would’ve caught it because he knows hat parts go with what. We used the ASTG manual dated as early 2000’s.
I apologize for the non-technical term "fly lap", as this was the term my father-in-law used, so I ran with it. I would consider it honing the spool bore but he said it was something that they had to do at Allison's when the transmissions wouldn't pass test inspections due to a sticking spool. I assumed if it was an acceptable practice at Allison's, then it would be acceptable here. Aside from just replacing the VB, can I not test this some how to eliminate it from being " ruined"?
Less than $100 in the test rig. If you plan on rebuilding more trans, then this is a good investment. Otherwise, it's probably going to be more cost effective for you to just buy a reman valve body that's already been vacuum tested.
MaroonMonsterLS1,
This is exactly what I need!!! Thank you very much for sharing. I too am an engineer by trade, currently operating as a Maintenance Manager in a plastics manufacturing facility. Wrenching on cars is just something I've always enjoyed doing. Had my wife's '07 Suburban not been such a money pit, I probably would have never dove into rebuilding transmissions. I enjoy learning new things and being that my father-in-law has built several 700R4's from his dirt car racing days, I figured if he could be successful, why not learn a thing or two on the way. I enjoy shop time with him, and it doesn't hurt to learn new and old tricks from a retired Allison test stand operator.
I've been on the brink of buying a vacuum pump for recharging A/C units, this makes it easier for me to justify. I dug into the Sonnax website and watched their videos. They're not extremely detailed on how they test a specific area in the VB, but I am assuming you just place the 2"x3" plexi-glass over the section you want to see if it holds vacuum. Are you shutting off the pump at this point to see if it bleeds off? Is 2"x3" small enough to check in between each area of a valve? I'm not 100% certain as to how it is being used. Is the exhaust side of the plexi-glass aligned with the other side of the VB area you're trying to measure acrossed? Or are you just checking the one port to see if it leaks by the spool?
Again, very much appreciate the post. It's exciting to me to learn new ways to improve skills.
The plexiglass has a seal on it so that it can seal the "worm trails" and check leakage past the spool of the valve. The pump is calibrated (follow sonnax video, or I guess I could make one for mine) so that it never dead heads the pump, but it also will make about 5 inHg with the suction side wide open.
Just put the plexiglass over the whole area of "worm trail" that's highlighted in red on the sonnax sheet, and check the vacuum pump reading. You'll learn as you go along that sometimes valves are stroked outboard and need to be stroked inboard for you to test, or vice versa, so just make sure the spools are where they need to be for the test. Some also need the backside of the valve body covered (there are large fluid exhaust passages) and the pressure regulator valve in a 60e has a small orifice in the valve itself you need to cover with a pencil eraser in order to properly test.
You don't have to shut the pump off and check bleed down. If the gauge shows, around 15inHg or better, that spool and bore are good. 10-15 is questionable and I would start looking for a fix if there is one (like the sonnax 0-ring end plugs for the 3/4 circuit and tcc circuit). less than 10 and the bore is SIGNIFIGANTLY worn, or you aren't testing properly. Severely worn bores on a 60e are usually the AFL bore and pressure regulator bore. These two valves are constantly oscillating and wear the bore out.
Degree in Mechanical Engineering. Focus on combustion processes and hydraulics.
I do project engineering and management.
The title "engineer" doesn't mean all too much to be honest. Doesn't mean anybody swings a big stick with it. I'm schooled by "non engineers" everyday and I'm 100% grateful to learn every time
Update... So my father-in-law took it upon himself to purchase the PCM "black box" on the outside of the tranny as a local shop told him to. Thanks local shop!!! I installed it last night and it did not change a thing. I have a little more info on how the tranny is reacting but I'm leaning towards your suggestion Maroon MonsterLS1, and plan on purchasing the components this week if work and baseball games allow it.
So, we took the Escalade back out after swapping out the "black box" which proved to do nothing more than entertain my father-in-laws curiosity. But I noticed that when we take off in "D" the transmission would only shift into second gear after lifting off of the throttle. We mimicked this at least 4 - 5 times. We could never get it to shift any higher but I thought that was rather weird. He also purchased the 1-2 and 2-3 shift solenoids that I have to replace one day this week. Once we are done "GUESSING" and throwing parts at it, I will explain to him that "WE", meaning me, need to pull the VB so I can vacuum test it. I can tell he really isn't ready to do that just yet, so I'll entertain the idea of swapping out the solenoids. Honestly, I hope he guesses right, because I'm not really ready to go through this whole thing again.
The positives - I've learned a great deal about the 4L65E and how meticulous you really need to be. Not something I would want to do for a living but definitely enjoy the challenge it has brought on.
05-17-2018, 10:11 AM
4L65E Cadillac Escalade 
