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depends how you look at it.
some think the outer set of springs is pushing the apply plate off the clutches (after all...the backing plate is fixed against the snap ring)
so they would be pushing in the same direction.
Regardless...doesn't matter...the idea of the outer springs is to ensure the clutch stack has forced separation to reduce drag.
This is beneficial in my opinion.
Not NECESSARY by any means...so the guys that say "I ran no springs for 20 years and no issues" are probably telling the truth. You don't need them.
But...it doesn't hurt a thing and when spinning 5500+ rpm the reduced drag is nice
thats what I’m saying, but I won’t put a unit together without them. I can push the top plate down with my hands so I imagine hydraulic force is a lot stronger than me. I figure all the little leak fixes I do, do more than make up for overcoming that spring pressure.
I do not remember when ATSG and/ or ATRA made the statement to remove the 3-4 Clutch Load-Springs.
While at GM during this time... I was able to see transcriptions of Technician repairs...
That discussed omitting the Springs.
Also around that time, there were discussions about omitting the 3rd-Accumulator Check-Ball Capsule...
Then installing a Cup-Plug in its place.
Neither were ever recommended by GMPT 4L60E Engineers.
I personally have never experienced any harm from the Springs...
But the way in which I set-up the 3-4 Clutch; I also do not experience any changes without the Springs.
One of the more common stacks that I assemble would be:
-My own (In-House) selective Nitrided Apply and Backing Plates (similar to the Sonnax versions) for Stock or 4L79E Drums (One for each type).
-8 BW HE 0.067" Frictions (the Clutch Material is well suited for tight clearances).
-7 Raybestos 0.077" Nitrided Steels (the surface of the Steels is well suited for tight clearances).
-Clearance for 8 Clutches and 7 Steels will be 0.025" - 0.030".
When experimenting with normal Steels and other Material Clutches (compared to the above Stack)...
I do find less material loss with the Load-Springs (when still using a tight 0.025" - 0.030" clearance).
If the clearance is opened up to 0.070"+ the Load-Springs do not make as much of a difference...
But the 2-3 Shift will most often suffer with that much 3-4 Clutch clearance (the Timing of the 2-4 Band will have to be altered).
Something I forgot to mention that I do on the 3-4 clutch pack. I’ll lap in the top plate and apply plate and make sure they are flat. A lot of times they are not. In my mind, I’m losing surface area that the frictions could be using.
I do not remember when ATSG and/ or ATRA made the statement to remove the 3-4 Clutch Load-Springs.
While at GM during this time... I was able to see transcriptions of Technician repairs...
That discussed omitting the Springs.
Also around that time, there were discussions about omitting the 3rd-Accumulator Check-Ball Capsule...
Then installing a Cup-Plug in its place.
Neither were ever recommended by GMPT 4L60E Engineers.
I personally have never experienced any harm from the Springs...
But the way in which I set-up the 3-4 Clutch; I also do not experience any changes without the Springs.
One of the more common stacks that I assemble would be:
-My own (In-House) selective Nitrided Apply and Backing Plates (similar to the Sonnax versions) for Stock or 4L79E Drums (One for each type).
-8 BW HE 0.067" Frictions (the Clutch Material is well suited for tight clearances). -7 Raybestos 0.077" Nitrided Steels (the surface of the Steels is well suited for tight clearances).
-Clearance for 8 Clutches and 7 Steels will be 0.025" - 0.030".
When experimenting with normal Steels and other Material Clutches (compared to the above Stack)...
I do find less material loss with the Load-Springs (when still using a tight 0.025" - 0.030" clearance).
If the clearance is opened up to 0.070"+ the Load-Springs do not make as much of a difference...
But the 2-3 Shift will most often suffer with that much 3-4 Clutch clearance (the Timing of the 2-4 Band will have to be altered).
And you use nitrated steels here because they reduce drag correct? I believe I read you mentioned this as well as Grady
Yes, the nitrided steels have a LOWER coefficient of friction.
They also shed oil differently than a non treated steel.
I usually dislike the nitrided (aka kolene) steels for automatic transmission applications...but this is one of the select few applications where they can offer some benefit.
With this said, during the parts shortages we have been experiencing, I have gone back to using non-treated steels and just adding .001" clearance per friction. I have not seen any ill effects in the multiple high perf. units I have done this way recently.
band timing and orifice sizing are more critical, but I've gotten those pretty well figured out
forgot to mention.
for anyone using kolene steels...they must be properly handled before install.
You need to scotch brite most of the black coating away. You'll find it is loose...almost like surface rust. Then below that, you'll see a color change and that's where the actual nitrided steel layer is.
If you don't prep them, you'll just "load up" the friction material full of **** and nothing will work or last how you want it to.
I have found that, the superior (Gas Nitriding) processes will result in far less of the surface coming off via scuffing.
More consistent results/ compound thickness... before getting down into untreated material.
I'll add that counterfeit treated Steels (not actually Nitrided) are still in circulation...
Do not purchase "No-Name" Branded Steel Plates that are supposed to be Nitrided.
I have had very good results with Nitrided 4L60E 3-4 Steels from Raybestos.
I have however moved to using a local Chemical/ Metallurgy Company, to perform all of my Gas Nitriding and Gas Nitro-Carburizing needed.
The results of which, have been far better than any Kolene (Registered Trade-Mark) Steels from Clutch Companies.
Last edited by vorteciroc; 10-22-2021 at 08:20 PM.
As well as the Nitrided Steel Plates possessing a lower coefficient of friction (especially on the very initial apply)...
The Borg-Warner High-Energy Clutch Plate Material also behave as possessing a similar trait, and reducing Drag.
I really can not believe, just how much Clutch Companies will push Kolene Steels and Clutch Materials for applications/ Clutch-Packs...
That will be of NO benefit at all!
...or even make Clutch performance worse.
Using the 4L60E as an example:
-The only "real" dynamic Clutches/ Shift Elements, are the 3-4 Clutch and the 2-4 Band (Notice both are a High-Energy Material).
-All the other Clutches/ Shift Elements are the standard "Tan" Borg-Warner Material (no need for anything else unless a Trans-Brake is used).
With a Trans-brake, the Reverse-Input Clutch and Low-Reverse Clutch can benefit from a "High-Static" Clutch Material.
When you see a Complete Clutch Set from Alto in their Red Material (or many other aftermarket Clutch Materials)...
You are pretty much wasting Money on Clutches that would be perfectly fine with the Stock Tan BW Material.
On that note...
There are SOO many unnecessary aftermarket Parts produced for Transmissions (the 4L60E in particular).
Hydraulic changes will allow so many Stock Parts to handle a bunch of power.
It would take me longer to write a book on all the unnecessary Parts produced for the 4L60E (and the Stock Parts that work)...
Than writing a book on building a 1,000 HP 4L60E.
The Sonnax 2nd-Servo is a great, beautiful Part...
But the "Corvette" 2nd-Servo with the corresponding Orifice sizing will handle 90+ Percent of anything you through at it (within reason).
Finally got some time away from work to revisit my everlasting 4L60e build. Working to polish off the pump build. I did buy that bore brush kit and cleaned out all the bores. I also sanded down the rotor to give me between 1 and 2 thousands clearance. The stator is installed perfectly as well. Now I'm assembling the valves. Few questions...
Pressure regulator valve acceptable play: I can perceive play in the bore (up and down). It's BARELY perceivable but there. What is normal? I see sonnax makes a kit to bore the pump out and put in a bigger valve but I'd imagine my play is so minimal it would be tricky to get it better. I didn't put any assembly lube on the valve when I stuck it in which is a bit silly of me so not sure if that's was the issue. Didn't think of it till writing this. Note installed Transgo: Pressure regulator valve spring, isolator spring, reverse boost valve, and reverse boost valve sleeve. Pressure regulator valve was original to pump. I have two factory regulator valves both have same play in bore.
Pressure relief check ball - the ball from pump is scored up. New one didn't come in my kit. Reuse? Or buy another? Is another material that won't score up recommended? I think the spring chews them up no? VIDEO HERE
Valve converter clutch: I tore down two pumps and seem to have gotten two different styles of converter clutch valves. I'm not sure which one would be best to use as I have a choice now. VIDEO HERE
Newer style with single spring older style with dual spring (not example photo is for non PWM. I have bit different valve but curious which is better, dual or single spring design?)
Originally Posted by MaroonMonsterLS1
forgot to mention.
for anyone using kolene steels...they must be properly handled before install.
You need to scotch brite most of the black coating away. You'll find it is loose...almost like surface rust. Then below that, you'll see a color change and that's where the actual nitrided steel layer is.
If you don't prep them, you'll just "load up" the friction material full of **** and nothing will work or last how you want it to.
Noticed your comment. Looks like I have Koleen steels in my kit for 3-4 clutch pack HERE. I'll have to scotch bright them.
Last edited by weinerschizel; 11-04-2021 at 11:11 PM.
If you have a PWM pump use the PWM converter clutch valve. That pressure relief check ball is ruff, I would replace that. I don't know of an upgraded check ball that is on the market. You have two pumps how is the check ball in the other pump. I have never seen wear there before. The best way to check PR valve wear to to vacuum test.
@bbond105 I seem to have confused things with the picture. Both converter clutch valves are the same. Only difference is one uses a spring cupped by end of valve, other has two springs on outside radius of nipple. Is one better than the other?
I can't say if one is better than the other, but I would use the spring and valve assembly that came out of the pump that you are using. Hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong.
I can't say if one is better than the other, but I would use the spring and valve assembly that came out of the pump that you are using. Hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong.
Makes since.. now if only I could remember which valve came from which pump haha.
Yeah I'm confusing things. I shouldn't have used those pictures. Both of my valves are for PWM but are of two different styles, as in this video I made HERE
Style 1: Two spring PWM
Style 2: Single spring PWM
The valves otherwise look exactly the same, although piston closest spring is a bit longer on the single spring one.
Not sure if it matters which style I use, two or single spring? (I forgot which pump they came out of stupid me put everything in a box from both pumps).
10-21-2021, 08:00 AM
