weinerschizel

I was thinking on that. I searched for hours last night on the TCC pump valve. I even tried to spec via parts catalogs at sonnax, Rock Auto, etc.

So both pumps are 300mm style.
Both do not have the ISS sensor
Both have TCC lockup valves

Bit of a mystery to me. I should have been more careful taking them apart. Curious though... Maybe I just test the TCC lockup? Is there a way to pressure test it on the bench?

Maybe I just buy the Sonnax one, says it works with all pumps that have TCC lockup? Would stop the guesswork. https://www.sonnax.com/parts/2478-tcc-apply-valve-kit

matermark

Weiner, be careful on pumps, stators, input shafts and boost valves.

My core was 2007 and I had a chance to buy a 4l65e input drum/housing with the better shaft and some additional parts inside the housing, but not complete... it was for 2006 & up with the ISS reluctor shaft and I bought it before I tore apart the 2007 (7KCD.)

When I took the pan off, it had NO ISS wire! So this was a change of plans. So I ordered the Sonnax 77733-11KA Smart Tech input drum and shaft, it's for 300mm LS motor/trans and NO ISS.

When I removed the pump from the '07, it had a rubber plug bolted into the stator. So I figured everything's OK... No ISS.

But if you look INSIDE the stator tube, there's a hole somewhere between 1/4 to 3/8" in the sleeve. FOR ISS! But it's plugged on the outside, that means NO ISS! Well... not exactly....

Even worse, the 4 rings on the input shaft ARE MOVED .190" towards the drum, even though it didn't have the ISS reluctor teeth! THIS IS BAD NEWS!

So easiest fix is change the pump to non-ISS. So I ordered a pump from ebay. It had NO ISS WIRING... NO ISS PLUG... NO O-ring--it uses the wedge seal like all 2004 & up. So far so good! It had the short style, late boost valve--GREAT--I can take the short late Sonnax Boost Valve with o-rings I put into the '07 pump and swap into it!

But then I looked inside the replacement pump... what did I see inside the stator tube? A DAMN ISS HOLE! #%*$^$! WTF!

So thIS PUMP WON'T WORK EITHER!

So thinking if I wanted to change the stator tube, but had no shop press, I couldn't do that. And all these purchases had to be done online--THIS WAS FOR MY ONLY VEHICLE--I couldn't go take the pump back to a local trans parts place w/no vehicle--I've been without wheels since February!

So back to looking for another pump... I found a pump on ebay and asked the place to look into the stator tube and see if it has an ISS hole... NO HOLE! Is it o-ring or wedge seal? WEDGE SEAL! Just what I wanted, I'll take it! They were semi-local, within an hour drive, but had to ship it. It was a Friday, to get it Saturday had to use USPS. It was FREE SHIPPING. GREAT!

Come Saturday, I ran the tracking # and it said waiting for pickup! HOLY ****! More problems? Come Monday, STILL NO PUMP! I emailed the seller and he said instead of USPS driving it due North 50 miles to the main PO a couple blocks from me, it got routed and sent to SYRACUSE 130 miles away for further routing/distribution! WTF!

Come Tuesday, it arrived late in the day--my mailman's a slow-poke! So all is good, right?? Well... not so fast... I look at the boost valve bore and WTF! It's the old style long valve! DAMMIT! Now the short Sonnax o-ringed boost valve is useless! I have to order the long valve and wait 5 days or buy the TransGo universal boost valve for $5 less and get it 2 days sooner. So TransGo it is for THIS TRANSMISSION FROM HELL!

So be SURE the shaft doesn't have a hole on the inside for ISS regardless if no sign of ISS on the outside, and be sure the seal rings on the input shaft are in the proper location! Even if it doesn't have ISS reluctor teeth, it can still have the rings moved almost 2/10ths of an inch back, which can cause QUICK SELF DESTRUCTION. I did pick up a Sonnax 300mm ISS Reluctor 300M billet input shaft but didn't have a press!

Hope this helps somebody!

weinerschizel

Sorry to hear the trouble. I called Sonnax and asked them for the exact part number on which stator I needed. Then I ordered through Rock Auto. I just went to local shop and they let me use their press. Then I heated the pump half in oven to 550F and froze the stator. Slid right in.

My question now is, on the TCC Apply Valve I need to determine which pump is older of two I took apart so I can make sure and get the right valve into the right pump. The one pump was junk so I bought a second and stupid me, I threw all the parts into same bin. Now I cannot tell which TCC valve is which. That or buy a Sonnax replacement TCC vavle? UPDATE:I just threw in the dual spring TCC valve in there and calling it a day.

New question - 3-4 Clutch Retainer Ring Play: I installed the 3-4 clutch retainer ring (bottom plate below clutches). It sits on top the legs for the 3-4 clutch apply ring. I then felt if there was any up and down play. It seemed there was so I rotated it through all possible positions till I found the one with the least play. I haven't measured the play, it's minimal but is there. Is this normal?

matermark

On the 3-4 apply, is your lower ring cast aluminum with some steps/legs pointing down? Item #141 in exploded views? Part # is 74141, there are multiple thicknesses available. It's called the apply plate. The stamped steel piece is the Apply Ring, #547 in pics, part $ 74547.So, there should be 5 of the narrow cast little legs and they get lined up over the 5-finger stamped steel apply ring, it should have a "#7" stamped into the steel of the apply ring.

The TCC valve one set of years uses 2 springs and the later ones use 1 spring. I think the end that goes in first is different. See the diagrams I included above, they use the single spring. The 2 springs went over the small end of '97-'05 models. and the single spring went INSIDE the large hollow end. The valve with the hollow large end is the later model.

To see the complete updated pump notice pdf, I included it in the 1st post in this thread:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...l#post20379989

Here's part of the page with the early style with TCC w/2 springs and long boost valve. Notice also the differences in the casting, as the late has a notch in the circumference of the stator for both the TCC & Boost valves.


Hope this helps!

tayto

you can always drop pan and replace if wrong, don't have to pull unit.

weinerschizel

Thanks @tayto I didn't realize that I could swap the TCC valve with pump in case.

Reaction Shaft Bushings I broke all rules and got the old bushings out. BY far the hardest to get out, especially with taper at bottom of shaft. I manage to nick the bearing surface a bit. I'm thinking that won't hurt anything? LINK TO VIDEO OF NICK HERE

bbond105

Just sand it smooth and press the new bushing in.

weinerschizel

Awesome thanks!

So I've been watching LOTS of 4L60e rebuild videos.... as well as reading the ATSG guide. The biggest help of course is here

I was watching the Performa Built transmission / 4L60E build video on Youtube. I forget his name but he mentioned checking for play on the 3/4 apply plate by trying to rock it with your hand. I tried that and noticed I have a VERY slight amount of play. My ATSG guide says nothing of this but makes perfect sense. Not sure how to determine what is good and what is bad.

How much play is too much in the 3-4 clutch apply plate? HERE'S A VIDEO OF THE PLAY (TOWARDS END OF VIDEO)

bbond105

To be honest, I have never heard of checking the apply plate for rocking and I don't know how you would correct it if it did rock.

weinerschizel

@bbond105 thanks for helping me lay that to rest... What I did do is orient it so the rocking motion was minimized. Maybe a mute point since it's not standard practice to check the apply plate like that.

I'm onto building out the 3/4 clutch pack... I'm cleaning up the residue from heat treatment on Kolene steels. You say there will be a color change?

I see a residue, almost like blotchy coloration on surface of steels. I took a scotch bright and polished that off. It's more consistent now. Or do I have to take it down to a silver / metallic looking layer? It is still dark gray.

VIDEO OF KOLENE POLISHING HERE

Anybody have pictures of prepping Kolene steels like this?

BEFORE POLISHING KOLENE STEEL


AFTER QUICK POLISH FOR ABOUT 30 SECONDS WITH SCOTCH BRIGHT / TEXTURE IS MUCH LESS VISIBLE... IS THIS ENOUGH ?

MaroonMonsterLS1

I use a surface plate and 120 grit paper and flat sand them
scotch brite by hand is ok too

NO roloc discs or anything like that.
tumbling is also OK if you are able

2nd pic is better but still black coating so no good imo

weinerschizel

I've been reading up / researching nitride process here on internet. I cannot figure out exactly what is best or how far to take this coating off... What I see the nitride process is mainly on the surface / goes down a little bit into metal but not completely through.

I notice these steels have almost a rough feeling to them... I assume that rough coating will simply rub off on frictions and degrade their performance?

My thinking is to just use the scotch bright to knock off the rough surface / polish it a bit to take off that surface texture / smooth it out but not take all that coating off. Isn't the coating the nitride? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having the treated steels?

vorteciroc

The process is not intended to treat the entire Part.
It is in itself a "Surface Treatment".

Regarding Clutch Steels...
This process can actually affect a significant amount of the Part as the overall thickness is quite thin.

There are 2 Steels in the Image below.
Look at the Steel that is positioned higher-up than the other.
The area of that Steel from about 12:00 to 1:30, has quickly had the surface prepared with "ScotchBrite"Pads:



This is what I would consider to be the minimally acceptable surface appearance.
The Steel will look more like a "regular" Steel, but with a Bluish-Tint.
It must also be SMOOTH and FLAT.

I do not like to tell people to "sand" the Steels, because I am afraid that they will roughen-up the surface of the Steels.
That is not what you want to do... a rough surface will just shorten the Clutch life.

If someone wishes to use sand-paper... just finish the job with something that is not too coarse.

weinerschizel

Interesting... I took most all the coating off in areas of my trial steel.. I never hit a bluish area / heat treated area... It just quickly went to metal. I would have expected to see the heat treatment / blue right under the coating?

The metal surface is almost pitted all over the place. It most certainly isn't flat. The coating seems to be fitting in the pits making it overall flat. Honestly, I feel as though these are not made well but also don't know exactly what I am looking at.

MaroonMonsterLS1

Just not running kolene or other nitrided steels is the best option
most of the time they are actually a WORSE idea than plain steels

in select applications (3/4 of the 60e) they can make some sense. but 9/10 times the juice is not worth the squeeze IMO

weinerschizel

I also fielded the question of Dana about the coating on the steels. He provided a little additional info which was helpful. I copied below:

"Kolene treatment is .004" - .006" deep, very similar to nitriding a crankshaft. The surface has almost nothing to do with it. Some people have sanded this off, however it is not necessary anymore unless you have the old "dull rough finish". The newer type of treatment gives it a smooth finish. If you sanded it off, then polish it with 2,000 - 2,500 grit for a mirror finish. You do not want a rough finish. Years ago when the clutch material was made with Asbestos and you used type F oil, then the rougher finish was okay. That was back in 1978. All clutch material is a paper type these days and use a Dexron type of oil and like a smoother finish. In fact the smoother the better."

weinerschizel

Okay, moving on. I'm trying to final assemble the 3/4 clutch pack.

Clutches taller than 3/4 return springs

I ordered 3/4 return springs GM part number 8667424 HERE. The clutch / steel stack-up is taller than the springs (video HERE). They'll never do anything if installed. Is there a modification that needs done to these or different ones used?

his clutch return springs are taller than mine. He mentions a mod to them, but not sure what mod?

After that he gets into clutch clearance when leads into my second question...

Clutch Clearancethis always throws me for a curve.

1. I am loading up the system when I push a feeler gauge in-between the lock ring and pressure plate. Is that a true measure? All the tutorials and manuals show to do it that way? I have no other way to measure the 3/4 clutch pack. With that spec is 20 to 35 thousands. I can squeeze 20 in there but not 35 so I presume that good?

2. I see a dummie check on clearance with PerformaBuilt video . He spins a clutch, he also doesn't have any of them soaked in transmission fluid? I tried to spin one of mine, I'm not sure they spin quite as easily as in his video. I can spin one but if I try two it starts to spin the drum on my table.

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

If one clutch tries to turn the drum your too tight it should not at all and should spin easy, One the springs that is a bit more complicated we actually use a taller spring, I can get you a hillman number for it but not till monday I am afraid, And no for the purposes of setting clearance IMO we do it dry.
I might get by shop this weekend sometime to check that number but I cannot say for sure ill be over that way,
As for your clearance the choices are a thinner steal, thinner plate or machine some off the plate on the lathe. Oter options are a thinner snap right, My preferred option is machine the top plate a little on the lathe but most don't have one of those around.
The clearance we use dry before installing the spring cages or air application is 20- 30 1/1000s It has worked very well for us for many years.

BTW I am not the guy in video that is Ryan I am Frank@PerformaBuilt

weinerschizel

@performabuilt Hey Frank! Awesome to see you on here. We chatted (via email) before I started my build. You were referred to me by a several people over on YukonTahoeForm.com I have some build posts on there for the rest of my truck... Current 4L60E works but is bone stock 2001 w/ a mild cam in an LQ9. I think my band is going out (or an event concurrent with band apply) as I the knock sensor registers noise when it is applied. Hopefully can get this tuned up once I get a new transmission in. If you were in Arizona, I'd have paid you extra to watch you build this Building an automatic transmission has been on my bucket list since I was a kid so I didn't want to order one already done.

This has been REALLY interesting learning about these, with a little luck mine will at least turn when I'm done I've watched more build videos than I care to count, and Ryan's so much I nearly have it memorized. I read the ATSG manual and have another book I bought on the build. There's a LOT of stuff I notice isn't covered / questions I have had along the way all the generous builders on previous posts have helped out along the way. I also have no way without shop tools / vacuum system to completely validate my pump and valve body. Nor do I have a full test system minus putting in my truck so fingers crossed. Build has been awesome fun though.

I found this spring on the Hillman website HERE part #851515 Looks like their only 3/16" diameter compression spring (diameter of stock spring / pocket on retainer).

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

Yes that is it it will fit tight into the pocket and is a bit longer and stiff but stands heat really well and does the job.