matermark

I found these when looking thru RA under vehicles with motors bigger than 5.3, like 6.0 or more but still using the '60e family. I must assume the 3-4 clutches are BLUE because it's an AC-Delco color, correct me if I am wrong and they are Raybestos Blue Plate Specials. (Would GM use something like a Raybestos Gen2 BPS friction, in anything--PERIOD?)

They are #24282752. They fit many vehicles in the mid 2000's, like '05 Y's, Escalades, Yukons, '08-'09 Saab 9-7x, etc.
I don't now if I'm allowed to post a pic so will try to link, if that's not allowed please let me now.

They appear to use a combo of tans and blues.
The description says:
Clutch Plate Kit with Friction and Steel Plates Info
Trans. code 4L70-E; Blue; 4 Speed Trans.

24282752 clutches & 3-4 steels?

Also, I ran across an old thread somewhere else about a GM dealership mechanic who did most of their trans jobs and he believes one of them (65? 70?) used Kolenes... maybe these are them? or did GM use a different coating/process on their steels later in performance cars? Maybe he confused them with Lindered?

Anyway, does anybody have any comments or experiences with these?

Thanks for any/all replies!

vorteciroc

No Blue Frictions of any kind.

GM would only be using Borg-Warner High-Energy (Green) Frictions for the 3-4 Clutch in these applications.

matermark

It says right there in print Blue... is "Blue" referring to something else?

On somebody elses' ad all I found was "Replaces Part Number: 24244616."

I did see an online vendor selling AC Delco frictions in bulk that were blue, recently too, within the last 2-3 months...

I just thought ACD adopted blue the way Alto uses red...

You are saying the clutch kits GM sells with GM part #s have no blue frictions?

What could they be talking about, mentioning Blue?

By the way, near the bottom of the AC page, it lists material as SD 1799B

vorteciroc

I do not know where you came across something Blue...
There are two hyperlinks in your Post, and neither contains the word Blue.

Also, GM has never produced any Frictions Plates that were the color Blue.
If you found a description for Blue Colored GM Friction Plates... it is a mistake.

The Part Number that you Posted is for a Set of Borg-Warner Frictions...
containing Stock 4L60E/ 65E/ 70E Tan Frictions with High-Energy (Green) 3-4 Clutch Frictions.

I spent too many years as an Engineer at Hydra-Matic to have to tell someone twice that GM produces no Blue Frictions!

vorteciroc

Here is a 3-4 Clutch (Green) Friction (from the same Part-Number set of Frictions that you Posted)...
shown on the Left of the image, and a Raybestos Gen-2 (Blue) Friction on the Right of the image:

matermark

Thanks for all your help, I'm here to learn and not be combative.
I posted the description directly from Rock Auto in my first post, where I looked it up by vehicle, I believe it was a 2006 Silverado 1500 6.0L. (I'm on 2 different computers and can never get my RA pages/carts to appear the same; I'll be on the other one soon as I assemble my body parts and change floors.)

The description says:
Clutch Plate Kit with Friction and Steel Plates Info
Trans. code 4L70-E; Blue; 4 Speed Trans.
......................
I pasted it right from their site, I ONLY bolded it to make it stand out...

That's why in post #3 I asked "What could they be talking about, mentioning Blue?"

But it's great to know that Rock Auto is wrong and there is no such Blue AC Delco clutch. Thanks.

matermark

Now that we can rule out that they are not Raybestos, can anybody comment on GM clutch set #24282752?

Any experience or opinions? And any comments on the 2nd part of my original post about the GM mechanic's opinion of Kolene steels in perhaps 4l70e's?

Thanks for all replies.

matermark

Thanks, here's where I got "Blue" from... I highlighted it with yellow, it's on the last line...

Ironically, I just noticed the clutches ABOVE that set ALSO says Blue! So I must just be color blind--what you said is green looks grey to me.
Double ironic is that the clutches shown in the full set look a little small to me, if those are the steels below them.

Thanks for clarifying there are no blues sold by GM. Maybe the company selling bulk frictions as AC Delco was selling unmarked Raybestos BPS.

I value your knowledge and your opinions greatly. I will have many, many more questions, I hope I'm not discouraged from asking them. This is a new trans to me, I'm not a trans shop and haven't rebuilt a GM trans since the mid-90's. I completely moved on from the automotive field at the end of last century. I'm only building a trans because it's my own & wanted it done right and I still must worry about an installer pulling a switcheroo.

Maybe you can comment on this set, if anything is good about it, and if GM ever used Kolene or Lindered steels in this trans family like the GM mechanic believed--by the way--he said this on a TBSS forum in 2008-2009 I think, he claimed he uses a certain GM clutch for its durability but must reread the thread--and he runs his own transmission shop I believe.

Thanks so much.

vorteciroc

The Rock-Auto descriptions that contain the color "Blue" are incorrect/ an error.
Rock-Auto also shows some 4L80E Friction and Steels in their Clutches category for the 4L60E/ 65E/ 70E.
So Rock-Auto appears to have plenty of errors/ mistakes in their product descriptions.
Be careful when making purchases, that you do not purchase incompatible parts.

The Clutch set that you are asking about is just a Stock/ OEM set...
Nothing special but perfectly fine.
Excluding Early versions of the Transmission, this Clutch set comes in all vehicles with the 4L60E/ 65E/ 70E with one variable.
The variable being the 3-4 Clutch Pack...
Different thickness Clutches and different quantities of Clutches are used depending on which Vehicle the Transmission is in.

The OEM Steels are produced in three sizes: 0.076", 0.096", and 0.106" thicknesses.
The OEM Frictions are produced in three sizes: 0.062", 0.067", and 0.080" thicknesses.

The Apply Plates are also produced in two different sizes.
The Backing Plates are produced in many different sizes to establish the desired Clutch Pack clearance.

vorteciroc

The OEM Borg-Warner "Tan" Frictions work very well in most all Builds.
However, the OEM Frictions for the 3-4 Clutch (excluding Early Models) are Borg-Warner High-Energy Frictions...
They are also excellent and work very well in most all Builds.

The ONLY time that I will use some different Clutches for the 4L60E/ 65E/ 70E...
is when using an aftermarket Input-Drum, and when using a Trans-Brake.

There is way too much "Hype" around "Performance" Automatic Transmission Parts.
Kolene Steels have a ton of "Hype"...
and in most situations are actually a downgrade for most Clutch Packs, as they posses a lower coefficient of friction than "Normal" Steels.
This is the opposite of what is desired for most types of Clutch Packs.

One of the very few places that I like to use Kolene Steels is in the 4L60E/ 65E/ 70E, 3-4 Clutch pack with minimal clearance (0.025" - 0.030" for 8+ Frictions).
This is an example of the rare situations where the Kolene Steels are of benefit.

GM also experimented with the Stock 3-4 Steels in some Model Vehicles...
In Engineering, many different Surface-Treatments were tested; and both Teflon coated Steels, and Lindered Steels ended up being produced.
The Lindered Steel process can have a "Blue" finish... maybe Rock-Auto was getting the color "Blue" this way???
I doubt it, as they used "Blue" separate from the Lindered Steels.

Kfxguy

iTrader: (1)

If you notice the lindered steels are roughed up. After seeing this, I started roughing my 3-4 kolene steels. I must be the odd man out because I much prefer the kolenes. I haven’t tried getting the lindered steels but I may check into it. I’ve had 100% success with gpz and kolenes.

matermark

Thanks for this reply; there's a lot in it I need to comment on, I'll bold some things so I don't forget, more since I've been doing some "homework" about the word "Blue" in Rock's listing... but I've found the most info from, of all places, Amazon.

I think the word Blue used by Rock may be because of this, from Amazon, when looking at a 3-4 set of GM clutches:

• 3-4

"Notes: COLOR OF REG 3-4 STL CLU PLT WAS SILVER AND COLOR OF HD 3-4 STL CLUPLT WAS BLUE. NOW BOTH REG AND HD ARE BLUE. SINGLE OPEN CIRCULAR INDENT ON.., SINGLE LARGE TOOTH IS ID FEATURE FOR HD PLT."

So GM had silver colored (natural?) 3-4 "regular" Steels and they had Heavy Duty Steel clutch plates that were BLUE. According to that fitment note, BOTH the regular and Heavy Duty are NOW BOTH BLUE. The Heavy Duty blue steels are identified by a single large tooth, unlike the regular duty ones.

I've sold genuine GM parts as an "independent" for maybe 25 years, I have yet to disclose the name of my previous business here, but it was back in the days GM used turquoise & black for most of their boxes, (some were gold & black too), before they switched to blue & white. The only Hydra-Matic experience I had during those years was with PG/TH400/TH350/350C/200-4R transmissions, or replacement Hydra-Matic parts that you can fit in your hand or pocket sold OTC like speedo gears, seals, etc. My GM Parts Catalogs were 1955-1975 Chevrolet with illustrations, Corvette catalog but newer published date, maybe around 1980 or so, and I think the B-O-P catalogs were around the same issue date as the Y cat.

I have never sold any other GM-branded trans internals besides what I mentioned and you are the expert in that. The only Kolene steels I've ever held in my hands are thin 4l60e aftermarket 3-4's. I personally have not seen these Blue steels noted above. The message only popped up on Amazon because it fit a vehicle in "my garage" there:

This fits your: 2002 Chevrolet S10 ZR2 General Motor… Check Fit Your Garage (3)
that fit this vehicle
This product fits this position on your 2002 Chevrolet S10:

• 3-4

Notes: COLOR OF REG 3-4 STL CLU PLT WAS SILVER AND COLOR OF HD 3-4 STL CLUPLT WAS BLUE. NOW BOTH REG AND HD ARE BLUE. SINGLE OPEN CIRCULAR INDENT ON..., SINGLE LARGE TOOTH IS ID FEATURE FOR HD PLT.
...........................
The clutches I got this message was GM 24238600.

This is a lot without even getting to everything else I bolded in your post, I'll leave that for later, but must at least say I already purchased the Sonnax 77733-11KA Smart drum kit with the shaft to use (9) 3-4's and .077/.078" steels (or eight frictions w/seven .095" steels.) All I have in possession are .062" Stage 1's. I was considering Stage 1, GPZ100, or BPS--I know this site is heavy on B-W, I just don't have any experience with them (other than losing stock 3-4's in 2 vehicles in <1 year) I haven't researched nor looked for ($) any B-W besides what I read here...

Please let me know if this clarifies the Blue question, and what you think should go in that Sonnax drum with a LS motored 5300lb 4WD w/3.42's. If there's no redeeming value of the full 4l70e clutch set for my app I'll use something else.

Thanks for all replies! Keep them coming!

vorteciroc

In most situations the type of Friction Material is not really important.
The hydraulics are significantly more important!

There are several reasons why the 4L60E Stock Tan Friction Plates are so popular...
They work perfectly fine, they do not ever usually fail from manufacturing errors, the sizing and quality-control is leaps-and-bounds higher than Raybestos.
The Green Borg-Warner High-Energy Frictions for the 3-4 Clutch are even better than the TAN Frictions...
They hold the ATF very well, are extremely durable, and work very well as a dynamic Clutch.

If a 4L60E is having repeat 3-4 Clutch Failures... there is a 99 Percent chance that the type of Frictions have nothing to do with why the failures occurred.

matermark

How did you rough up Kolene steels without removing the finish?

Kfxguy

iTrader: (1)

I have a worn out lapping sandpaper attached to a piece of glass. The original grit was fairly rough but it’s worn and works very well to flatten and lap parts in and small cylinder heads and cylinder jugs. I run it in a circle and figure 8 a couple times and it scraped the plates but doesn’t remove much blackness at all. Only from the outer edges. I’m building another unit when I get back from vacation and I’ll try and take some pics. Guy put it in Wednesday night and reported back the next evening. Said he got it running and drove to work Thursday and he said it felt stout. Said it shifted nice and quick and was exactly what he wanted.


to the op. You are way over thinking this. Way.

1) do not use blue plate clutches. Do not. They don’t last. I don’t know anything about any other blue clutches it kinda looks like they are referring to blued steels anyways.
2) use GPZ (my first pick) or high energy clutches.

if you aren’t making a bunch of power, the stock drum with a sonnax reinforcement kit would be my recommendation. If you are itching to use a sonnax drum, go for it. I’d recommend the 4l79 over the sonnax drum every day of the week. Hands down. Especially at the same price point. Dont get me wrong, the sonnax drum is a nice unit, but the 4l79 is better. It has much more clutch friction area from the bigger diameter clutch frictions and steels. I have not had 1 failure yet with that drum. I’ve used it a bunch. One guy I built one for out of state (he shipped it to me because his trans guy could not get it to hold) holds some kind of record with a truck (runs like low 11’s high 10’s with a stock motor and nitrous. I built that thing over three years ago and he races it a lot. It has a 4l79 in it. I kinda feel like the sonnax would have given out by now.

matermark

^^^^ I probably shouldn't have blamed it on a brand of clutches, the brand as well as below freezing temps with minimal warm-up are just a couple things in common between both vehicles; the bite in the *** was that both times they were my only vehicle. One wasn't used often (1x/wk) and the 2nd one was the replacement for the 1st one after an exhaustive 8-month nationwide search which I literally spent hours each day searching. Ironically, I was going to DMV to sign over the title of the 1st when the cooler line leaked everything out of the 2nd on the Thruway. I'm still not over it, I'm still shocked.

vorteciroc

Just to keep people from getting confused...

Generally Wet-Clutches should have smooth finished Steels.
Overly rough Steel-Plates/ Floater-Plates will actually abrade the Friction-Plates causing unnecessary wear and tear.

Predominantly older Manuals for Automatic-Transmission repair/ rebuilding, have instructions to sand the Steel-Plates.
A course/ rough surface finish is not ideal...
Sanding until the surface finish is nice and smooth would be fine... but probably as waste of time if the Steel-Plates were already smooth.

vorteciroc

Did GM ever conduct Clutch Material testing?
Did Borg-Warner ever conduct Clutch Material testing?

Do I really have to answer these questions?

...and YES the OEM Frictions for the 4L60E are great, better than good enough!

matermark

I actually contacted them and said I was considering the Sonnax or at least his 4l78 at the minimum, but 4l79 most probably, I explained the current situation here, and what he could do with the shaft installed. I told him the nature of the vehicle, the business, my standing/walking/body parts problems, hearing, etc. It was a very detailed email, (I don't use phones--just for photo documenting things or emails when in the yard--and avoid texting--I'm not a 17 yr old, like a friend's daughter who died trying to check a text message), and I never heard a word from Mason. Crickets as they say. Never an email/reply. And I was willing to use his without him stating a replacement clutch; I don't think it was clearly mentioned on his site if they were modified, proprietary or off-the-shelf TH350 clutches.

The Sonnax I saw sold for around $950 at multiple places, both places like PATC and speed shops like Summit, Jegs, etc. This version has the HD input shaft, aluminum piston, bigger/better rr. stator bushing, the stiffer apply plate, (or is it backing plate? I always mix those 2 names up), boost springs, and the reinforcement sleeve & shaft installed... for about $400 less than that.

As for the reinforcement, how much does he charge for the kit & piston? And how much are replacement clutches/steels from him? Do you know? Can you run nine frictions?

As for WAY overthinking this, that's right. You must know me, and what's going on, to understand. If you think you can R&R a 4WD trans & transfer case and do it for $250-$350 on MY GMT360 vehicle with 8" ground clearance, no jackstands, no floor jack, almost no automotive tools... anytime something goes (blows?), you are hired. I'm trying to do everything I can to it while it's a core on a bench or cart--I don't think I can do the R&R job myself and haven't found anybody to help yet. But I'm capable of the rebuild.

I need to build this ONCE to hold up to whatever power adders I add over the next few years, whether it's a 6.0, 6.2, 7.0, even a twin screwed or Cadillac-blown 5.3.

Thanks for your replies, all are appreciated!

matermark

I probably should have asked how often, like annually or every time a competitor makes a new product or release. I must not be thorough enough. Are you a track tester, vorteciroc?