The truth about beefing up the 4l60e
TECH Junkie
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,605
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From: Iowa
How about you and Edward take up that project
p.s. there are multiple 700r4 and 4l60e books already...let me know how many of them are on your bookshelf.
ATSG manual maybe? is that it?
If you haven't purchased the books already in print...and consumed that info to the full extent...how can you advise someone else spill their guts into a new book that you probably still won't buy
TECH Junkie
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 3,046
Likes: 713
From: Poplarville, MS
The information is out there if someone wants it bad enough they will do the research and find it. Once the research has been done take good notes when your put your trans together and if you brake something or don't like the way if shifts pull it back apart and change things. This is the way hot rodding is done by successful people. If you are not willing to put in the work pay someone to do it for you. No one is going to give up their secrets that they put in the work to find.
Last edited by bbond105; Oct 29, 2021 at 10:21 AM.
TECH Junkie
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,194
Likes: 1,377
From: Nitro Alley
I agree with the others.
I also have no interest in writing a book... it is a ton of work with practically no return.
I put a stupid amount of time into the 4L80E Lube Circuit Thread, and it wasn't a hit.
Lastly I am not legally permitted to have a Book published that contains information that I acquired from GM.
That NDA would make for a very short Book with very little information (as a lot of the info I know is from my time with GM).
I also have no interest in writing a book... it is a ton of work with practically no return.
I put a stupid amount of time into the 4L80E Lube Circuit Thread, and it wasn't a hit.
Lastly I am not legally permitted to have a Book published that contains information that I acquired from GM.
That NDA would make for a very short Book with very little information (as a lot of the info I know is from my time with GM).
TECH Junkie
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,194
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From: Nitro Alley
I also forgot to mention that SA Design (in particular)...
has a pretty bad reputation of screwing over Authors that do not wish to write multiple Books.
There is another Publishing Company (like SA Design) called HP Books...
Their Books are far less popular, but have a much better reputation with Authors.
has a pretty bad reputation of screwing over Authors that do not wish to write multiple Books.
There is another Publishing Company (like SA Design) called HP Books...
Their Books are far less popular, but have a much better reputation with Authors.
Last edited by vorteciroc; Oct 29, 2021 at 11:40 PM.
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 314
Likes: 17
From: The Niagara Frontier
Fantastic Idea
How about you and Edward take up that project
p.s. there are multiple 700r4 and 4l60e books already...let me know how many of them are on your bookshelf.
ATSG manual maybe? is that it?
If you haven't purchased the books already in print...and consumed that info to the full extent...how can you advise someone else spill their guts into a new book that you probably still won't buy
How about you and Edward take up that project
p.s. there are multiple 700r4 and 4l60e books already...let me know how many of them are on your bookshelf.
ATSG manual maybe? is that it?
If you haven't purchased the books already in print...and consumed that info to the full extent...how can you advise someone else spill their guts into a new book that you probably still won't buy
How old is the 60e and what's the last printed book publish date?
I'd buy a print book BY YOU, VORTECIROC, or BOTH OF YA's even though I sold books by HP Books, SA Design, others, and knowing what the price margins are I wouldn't buy others...
I have the ATSG's, ATRA/Cliff McCormick, 4l60e Hydraulic Control Components and others in pdf/doc, etc. Oh, and GM Powertrain Hydra-matic 4L60-E Technician's Guide!
I know the '60e family is based off the 700R4 but it hasn't been used in a production vehicle in many decades, not years.
If you think the books you mentioned are better than what you & vortec offer here, then I'll look to get them...
Thanks for your contributions here, I greatly appreciate them!
Last edited by matermark; Oct 29, 2021 at 06:46 PM.
TECH Junkie
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,194
Likes: 1,377
From: Nitro Alley
The 4L60E, 4L65E, and 4L70E are all the same Transmissions with small changes between them.
Thus I refer to them collectively as the 4L60E Family.
I do not recall seeing any newly published Books on the 4L60E Family.
The most recent publication of any kind, was a small update section to the ATSG Books on the 4L60E Family.
Afterwards these books now include this small additional section on ISS, 3-2 Solenoid, and Internal Mode Switch.
The 4L70E does not require a dedicated Book...
It is essentially the same as a 4L60E or 4L65E, but with ISS added.
I would not even have changed the name to 65E or 70E.
Later updates to the 70E were removal of the 3-2 Solenoid, and switching from a Fluid-Pressure Manifold Switch and NSS to an Internal Mode Switch.
No name change occurred this time.
These Transmissions received Updates almost every year... and the name never changed from 1993 to 2001/ 2002.
The ONLY reason that the 4L65E (and later 4L70E too) name change happened is because GM had not released a New Transmission (for corresponding Platforms)...
in a long time, but wanted to create new interest in their Products...
So, WOW!!! A New 4L65E Transmission! It sounds New and Amazing! OMG!!!
GM Customers were like:
Then I saw the GM Customers, and was like:
GM Customers were saying, this 65E is so much better than the 60E:
Then I heard what the GM Customers were saying, and I was like:
So I secretly told the GM Customers the Truth:
...and they were like:
Then I was like:
Meh... 
...and then finally, I was like:
Later on, GM wanted to ask me about Customers hearing bad things about GM Products.
...I said, who Me? ...and was like:
They said, We know you are loyal to the Company... And I said, Yes I am! I was like this:
Thus I refer to them collectively as the 4L60E Family.
I do not recall seeing any newly published Books on the 4L60E Family.
The most recent publication of any kind, was a small update section to the ATSG Books on the 4L60E Family.
Afterwards these books now include this small additional section on ISS, 3-2 Solenoid, and Internal Mode Switch.
The 4L70E does not require a dedicated Book...
It is essentially the same as a 4L60E or 4L65E, but with ISS added.
I would not even have changed the name to 65E or 70E.
Later updates to the 70E were removal of the 3-2 Solenoid, and switching from a Fluid-Pressure Manifold Switch and NSS to an Internal Mode Switch.
No name change occurred this time.
These Transmissions received Updates almost every year... and the name never changed from 1993 to 2001/ 2002.
The ONLY reason that the 4L65E (and later 4L70E too) name change happened is because GM had not released a New Transmission (for corresponding Platforms)...
in a long time, but wanted to create new interest in their Products...
So, WOW!!! A New 4L65E Transmission! It sounds New and Amazing! OMG!!!
GM Customers were like:
Then I saw the GM Customers, and was like:
GM Customers were saying, this 65E is so much better than the 60E:
Then I heard what the GM Customers were saying, and I was like:
So I secretly told the GM Customers the Truth:
...and they were like:
Then I was like:
Meh... ...and then finally, I was like:
Later on, GM wanted to ask me about Customers hearing bad things about GM Products.
...I said, who Me? ...and was like:
They said, We know you are loyal to the Company... And I said, Yes I am! I was like this:
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 663
Likes: 384
From: South Carolina
GM Customers were like:
Then I saw the GM Customers, and was like:
GM Customers were saying, this 65E is so much better than the 60E:
Then I heard what the GM Customers were saying, and I was like:
So I secretly told the GM Customers the Truth:
...and they were like:
Then I was like: Meh...
...and then finally, I was like:
Later on, GM wanted to ask me about Customers hearing bad things about GM Products.
...I said, who Me? ...and was like:
They said, We know you are loyal to the Company... And I said, Yes I am! I was like this:
Then I saw the GM Customers, and was like:
GM Customers were saying, this 65E is so much better than the 60E:
Then I heard what the GM Customers were saying, and I was like:
So I secretly told the GM Customers the Truth:
...and they were like:
Then I was like:
Meh... ...and then finally, I was like:
Later on, GM wanted to ask me about Customers hearing bad things about GM Products.
...I said, who Me? ...and was like:
They said, We know you are loyal to the Company... And I said, Yes I am! I was like this:
Thread Starter
On The Tree
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 187
Likes: 23
From: Israel
The 4L60E, 4L65E, and 4L70E are all the same Transmissions with small changes between them.
Thus I refer to them collectively as the 4L60E Family.
I do not recall seeing any newly published Books on the 4L60E Family.
The most recent publication of any kind, was a small update section to the ATSG Books on the 4L60E Family.
Afterwards these books now include this small additional section on ISS, 3-2 Solenoid, and Internal Mode Switch.
The 4L70E does not require a dedicated Book...
It is essentially the same as a 4L60E or 4L65E, but with ISS added.
I would not even have changed the name to 65E or 70E.
Later updates to the 70E were removal of the 3-2 Solenoid, and switching from a Fluid-Pressure Manifold Switch and NSS to an Internal Mode Switch.
No name change occurred this time.
These Transmissions received Updates almost every year... and the name never changed from 1993 to 2001/ 2002.
The ONLY reason that the 4L65E (and later 4L70E too) name change happened is because GM had not released a New Transmission (for corresponding Platforms)...
in a long time, but wanted to create new interest in their Products...
So, WOW!!! A New 4L65E Transmission! It sounds New and Amazing! OMG!!!
GM Customers were like:
Then I saw the GM Customers, and was like:
GM Customers were saying, this 65E is so much better than the 60E:
Then I heard what the GM Customers were saying, and I was like:
So I secretly told the GM Customers the Truth:
...and they were like:
Then I was like: Meh...
...and then finally, I was like:
Later on, GM wanted to ask me about Customers hearing bad things about GM Products.
...I said, who Me? ...and was like:
They said, We know you are loyal to the Company... And I said, Yes I am! I was like this:
Thus I refer to them collectively as the 4L60E Family.
I do not recall seeing any newly published Books on the 4L60E Family.
The most recent publication of any kind, was a small update section to the ATSG Books on the 4L60E Family.
Afterwards these books now include this small additional section on ISS, 3-2 Solenoid, and Internal Mode Switch.
The 4L70E does not require a dedicated Book...
It is essentially the same as a 4L60E or 4L65E, but with ISS added.
I would not even have changed the name to 65E or 70E.
Later updates to the 70E were removal of the 3-2 Solenoid, and switching from a Fluid-Pressure Manifold Switch and NSS to an Internal Mode Switch.
No name change occurred this time.
These Transmissions received Updates almost every year... and the name never changed from 1993 to 2001/ 2002.
The ONLY reason that the 4L65E (and later 4L70E too) name change happened is because GM had not released a New Transmission (for corresponding Platforms)...
in a long time, but wanted to create new interest in their Products...
So, WOW!!! A New 4L65E Transmission! It sounds New and Amazing! OMG!!!
GM Customers were like:
Then I saw the GM Customers, and was like:
GM Customers were saying, this 65E is so much better than the 60E:
Then I heard what the GM Customers were saying, and I was like:
So I secretly told the GM Customers the Truth:
...and they were like:
Then I was like:
Meh... ...and then finally, I was like:
Later on, GM wanted to ask me about Customers hearing bad things about GM Products.
...I said, who Me? ...and was like:
They said, We know you are loyal to the Company... And I said, Yes I am! I was like this:
Banned
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 252
Likes: 84
From: USA
You probably shouldn't complain. Try finding information on the NAG1 / WA580 / W5A580 / 722.6. You can buy them built for $4000+. You're not going to find a parts or mods list.
No one has conversations like this about those, I guess they're better at keeping their foot out of their mouth.
In fact why don't you build your own transmission without the internet. I don't know about other people but I learn by doing, not by trying to figure out why others did what they did, that's pretty much the basis of this thread.
No one has conversations like this about those, I guess they're better at keeping their foot out of their mouth.
In fact why don't you build your own transmission without the internet. I don't know about other people but I learn by doing, not by trying to figure out why others did what they did, that's pretty much the basis of this thread.
Staging Lane
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 55
Likes: 5
@RoyalJZ you were just in my private messages saying you were a high school kid with no time to read the forums and you need me to provide you a build list etc
and now you're popping off giving advice and letting people know about what parts are needed and that you break stuff at 330hp??
this entire thread, top to bottom, is a mess.
Just a mess haha
This is exactly what I was saying earlier.
There is already SO much free info on this forum. Provided by people that pay their bills with this stuff.
yet people still just want more more more
The internet has created an environment where people think all info should be free. and they EXPECT expert info
I've been messing with 4l60e's since 2008
frank for probably 20 years before me.
other guys have done that too. if people don't like the FREE info given out here...you're welcome to break things, burn up clutches, design new stuff, test new theories.
then after you spend the time to do all that...let me know if you'll be as eager to give out the info for free. Maybe you won't be as eager as myself, frank, vortec, jake, and countless others are.
and now you're popping off giving advice and letting people know about what parts are needed and that you break stuff at 330hp??
this entire thread, top to bottom, is a mess.
Just a mess haha
This is exactly what I was saying earlier.
There is already SO much free info on this forum. Provided by people that pay their bills with this stuff.
yet people still just want more more more
The internet has created an environment where people think all info should be free. and they EXPECT expert info
I've been messing with 4l60e's since 2008
frank for probably 20 years before me.
other guys have done that too. if people don't like the FREE info given out here...you're welcome to break things, burn up clutches, design new stuff, test new theories.
then after you spend the time to do all that...let me know if you'll be as eager to give out the info for free. Maybe you won't be as eager as myself, frank, vortec, jake, and countless others are.
TECH Regular
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 463
Likes: 179
it's not his job to guide anyone. he has posted a ton of info but you have to find it. god damn, everyone wants EVERYTHING now and they don't want to work for it. prepared to get flamed or totally ignored for that massive run on sentence of a post.
Staging Lane
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 55
Likes: 5
never said it was his job did i? if he didnt want to help all you have to do is say no thankyou, but to mislead other people saying that i was asking for his "secret recipe" is bullcrap and needed to be addressed, who said i wasnt willing to work for it? as stated above theres misinformation, how would i know which info is bad and which info is good? A simple i cant help you would have been much appreciated but instead he wants to try to bash me in a public thread when it was unnecassary and incorrect of what i asked/stateddddddddd
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 314
Likes: 17
From: The Niagara Frontier
The 4L60E, 4L65E, and 4L70E are all the same Transmissions with small changes between them.
Thus I refer to them collectively as the 4L60E Family.
I do not recall seeing any newly published Books on the 4L60E Family.
The most recent publication of any kind, was a small update section to the ATSG Books on the 4L60E Family.
Afterwards these books now include this small additional section on ISS, 3-2 Solenoid, and Internal Mode Switch.
The 4L70E does not require a dedicated Book...
It is essentially the same as a 4L60E or 4L65E, but with ISS added.
I would not even have changed the name to 65E or 70E.
Later updates to the 70E were removal of the 3-2 Solenoid, and switching from a Fluid-Pressure Manifold Switch and NSS to an Internal Mode Switch.
No name change occurred this time.
These Transmissions received Updates almost every year... and the name never changed from 1993 to 2001/ 2002.
The ONLY reason that the 4L65E (and later 4L70E too) name change happened is because GM had not released a New Transmission (for corresponding Platforms)...
in a long time, but wanted to create new interest in their Products...
So, WOW!!! A New 4L65E Transmission! It sounds New and Amazing! OMG!!!
GM Customers were like:
Then I saw the GM Customers, and was like:
GM Customers were saying, this 65E is so much better than the 60E:
Then I heard what the GM Customers were saying, and I was like:
So I secretly told the GM Customers the Truth:
...and they were like:
Then I was like: Meh...
...and then finally, I was like:
Later on, GM wanted to ask me about Customers hearing bad things about GM Products.
...I said, who Me? ...and was like:
They said, We know you are loyal to the Company... And I said, Yes I am! I was like this:
Thus I refer to them collectively as the 4L60E Family.
I do not recall seeing any newly published Books on the 4L60E Family.
The most recent publication of any kind, was a small update section to the ATSG Books on the 4L60E Family.
Afterwards these books now include this small additional section on ISS, 3-2 Solenoid, and Internal Mode Switch.
The 4L70E does not require a dedicated Book...
It is essentially the same as a 4L60E or 4L65E, but with ISS added.
I would not even have changed the name to 65E or 70E.
Later updates to the 70E were removal of the 3-2 Solenoid, and switching from a Fluid-Pressure Manifold Switch and NSS to an Internal Mode Switch.
No name change occurred this time.
These Transmissions received Updates almost every year... and the name never changed from 1993 to 2001/ 2002.
The ONLY reason that the 4L65E (and later 4L70E too) name change happened is because GM had not released a New Transmission (for corresponding Platforms)...
in a long time, but wanted to create new interest in their Products...
So, WOW!!! A New 4L65E Transmission! It sounds New and Amazing! OMG!!!
GM Customers were like:
Then I saw the GM Customers, and was like:
GM Customers were saying, this 65E is so much better than the 60E:
Then I heard what the GM Customers were saying, and I was like:
So I secretly told the GM Customers the Truth:
...and they were like:
Then I was like:
Meh... ...and then finally, I was like:
Later on, GM wanted to ask me about Customers hearing bad things about GM Products.
...I said, who Me? ...and was like:
They said, We know you are loyal to the Company... And I said, Yes I am! I was like this:
I wasn't suggesting the '70E needed a standalone book, I was suggesting the '70E is rarely if at all covered in any of the "performance type" books (SAD/HPB, etc.)
TECH Junkie
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,194
Likes: 1,377
From: Nitro Alley
I am going to say it again...
I consider Maroon Monster to be one of the most experienced 4L60E Builders here.
Extremely knowledgeable, surpassing those who have been building 4L60Es for 3 times as long.
So, I would listen to what he has to say.
I consider Maroon Monster to be one of the most experienced 4L60E Builders here.
Extremely knowledgeable, surpassing those who have been building 4L60Es for 3 times as long.
So, I would listen to what he has to say.
TECH Junkie
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,194
Likes: 1,377
From: Nitro Alley
TECH Junkie
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,194
Likes: 1,377
From: Nitro Alley
Physically all variants are the same (except for 1-Piece Case Units).
Staging Lane
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 55
Likes: 5
Top image looks to be a 4 pinion out of 4l80e or that family, i dont know or need to know the bottom one since the information that i "didnt work for" states that the 4 pinion should handle up, other parts will break before it breaks, you and maroon both advised to keep the 4 pinion planetary, correct me if im wrong but the bottom is a 6 pinion? from the same family, but there is no substantial research stating that a 4 is stronger than a 5/6 or vice versa