I work parts for a living and it was pretty tough when I first started out. Guys would come in and say, “I need some teeth for my hoe,” and I’d be like do what now? What they were asking for bucket teeth for an excavator. But yeah there are a lot of terms and slang names out there for sure.

 

V8fan;20615479]I not used it and I think will not be needed cuz extra large 2nd will definitely kicks at any throttle and my car not for race only

I think too that cushion spring affects because it soften pressure rise inside servo 3rd volume
But with 0.093 band release I achieved 3-2 flare and kick
Annoying and not safe for band
Transgo separator 46-96 has smaller dia of 2nd checkball hole than OEM -I think they tried to slow down servo release at 2-3 shift

Never had the issues of the rev bump at least as long as band close and 3-4 close setup as I do.
I only use the superior servo in my stage 3 and max edition units as with these I assume logically that comfort is not the goal but rather holding at WOT is the most important to my customer at that point, 800 PLUS RWHP cars and trucks , The person gave up comfort usually a while back and durability is paramount.

The Superior servo can still give progressive shifts with the right feed, accum, release hole sizes. But My main reason for using it is actually to severely limit accumulation at WOT on the 2-3.

The only way I see the cushion spring area would increase accumulation would just be the area of the pocket as opposed to it not being there. But as I mentioned with 800 plus units the 2-3 accumulation equals more slips during the apply. Even a few milliseconds at 7000 plus RPM translates to a lot of heat. That with the thinner friction and steels IMO with the necessary holding for that power level 7-8-9 O use depending on power, weight, primary use ) with though more accumulation would be a bad compliment. Thus the reason for the modified 2-3 valve , superior servo in the highest HP units even though I have to modify it for use with the sonnax dual 4th servo as they are not normally compatible . vet servo is used in all my stock-stage 1-stage 2 units. I do not use the sonnax nothing against it but do not feel enough difference to matter much and I dont care for the double D rings, Though will use when requested , When I do I replace one of the DRINGS with teflon and VORTECH suggested once to reduce drag and the 4L80E release spring.




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I saw lovely sounded LS3 with ITB at 8500+ for drift animal
Looks like better to hold in mind 9k ready build )[/QUOTE]

 

That's why I think that torque management is the key to success
No need to force clutch to grab that power if you can shut engine off for needed time
For now I only wanna understand how to move TM reduction time to more early engagement cuz now with fast shifting tranny it is delayed
I found some parameters in the 7603 firmware but google cant help me with this and I need to check it all by my *ss
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When 2nd feed pushed servo to band -cushion spring compressed
When 3rd feed start to pushing 2nd servo piston back it helps to release that spring and while it releases the pressure of 3rd feed is lower than when this spring unloaded and only weak spring before cushion in work
Its 2 stage force with one spring short and another long like in 1-2 accumulator

 

Hi again )
Anyone used this drum ?

 

No I have been aware of it for about two years, But have not yet used of tested one. I am curious how you would integrate the steel sleeve into the drum casting as mentioned. Of course a magnet could verify. It does look like from this vid and the photos from manufacturer I got to be a nice piece. The Initial retail they offered it to me for was 398 now its 498 . The piston apply are is supposed to be 40 percent more. If so that's huge would be like adding 3 to 4 more frictions to an 8 friction set up . Not a mathematician but that would be a monster increase in overall holding for the clutch set .

 

Now we just need to be able to have a 3-4 Clutch backing plate solution on that FI Drum, like Sonnax or 4L79 offers.

If only someone could blend both design improvements into a single product!

 

Do you guys think with a .500 boost valve and the bigger piston you would be blowing snap ring lugs out?

 

Yes that drum set up like the sonnax or the 4l79 would be an unbeatable combination . though Honestly I think as is it would exceed either.

 

Would that FI Drum create some Chiclets?

I have never had the opportunity to try one, however they have been around for two to three years.
Someone here may have some personal experience with them.

Unfortunately there does not seem to be any information regarding the metallurgy of the FI Drums, so an "educated guess" is not really an option.

 

I cant of course say , The guy says it is a billet aluminum drum, If true it would be overall stronger than the cast drum. However some experience with the stock drum. If clearance is kept low I have seen them function in a badly over pressure 60e at 300 psi and the person had been driving that way for some time. The snap ring had not blown out, I usually attribute a blown snap ring to ring position, excessive clearance (hammer effect) , thin snap ring use. At least that if how they always appeared to me.
I will be getting a drum in a couple weeks. I will say more once i have in hand.
I do like the idea of a new billet casting and the huge 3-4 piston as it would make even the 6 friction superior to a 9 or ten and even exceed hold of the 4l75 drum with the large frictions or at least equal it.

 

would the larger 3-4 piston be canceled out by the flimsy 5 finger stamped steel apply cage? I think so. However, I’ve got a 4l79 drum in my trans and it holds a 5.3, heads and cam, 25psi of boost in a heavy car. So I think it’s really not of much benefit if you get the 4l79 or the sonnax drum.

 

Has anyone ever tried to measure how much deflection you get with that cage?
Maybe in a shop press with a dial indicator?

Has anyone ever tried to strengthen it?

I remember the first time I opened up a 4L60, and thinking "Are they serious?"

 

that stupid apply cage is a cheesy design. I have a press and plenty of those junks, but no way to measure the force applied or the deflection. I don’t think there room in there to reinforce it either. Plus you’d have to make sure it’s balanced good enough because you could cause a vibration. Another thing about measuring the deflection is it’s in a drum that probably keeps it from bowing out TOO much. But I’m sure it still flexes enough to lower the delivered pressure.

 

Its impossible
To lower delivered force you need to reroute it to something
Lets pretend that this part flexes and shortens a bit
Like 0.100
3-4 piston just travel this in addition to normal travel and restore force because 3-4piston has no stop point and will go until its force will be fully transmit to clutch pack or will travel so long that lips goes above drum edge and oil spills to pan and you will achieve 3-4 burnt pack
And that FI backing plate has lowered area to lock snap ring from popping out under pressure

 

as mentioned the deflection would not reduce energy as regardless the piston would continually apply to keep the pressure the same to breaking point . Energy can not be destroyed only changed,
I do still think the larger servo would be the biggest improvement. With both the sonnax and other drum the design and it flaws as far as apply didnt change . The surface area just got larger on both allowing for greater heat dissipation and in the case of the other drum greater apply area per clutch but lower number of frictions, I think it holds 5,

But I doubt either add 40 percent more holding. , It literally would be like changing every clutch to a 1.4 clutch,
So 5 frictions would be 7 . 7 frictions would be would be 9.8 almost 10, 8 frictions would be 11 and a 9 friction 12 really 12.5 Huge increase .
For example with my stage 3 I would drop to 6 frictions and .90 steels for super pack integrity and cooling and the stage max would do 7 with ,82 steels and in both cases have more holding that my normal sets and much much better cooling. the fingers however are a week link i have though over many times as they cannot do not apply equal pressure to the plate and this is impossible to correct by design except by limiting flex of the plate as much as possible and using the thickest steels to help with overall integrity.

I Ideally in combination with either of the sonnax or 4L78 79 DRUM would be awesome, Now I would worry about the 4L79 DRUM and its threading with the 40 percent more apply.

So I think this and the sonnax would be the best combo and of note easiest to duplicate.

Snap rings popping out I addressed earlier If indeed it is a billet cut then it will be stronger anyway , Add to that a thick snap ring and proper location IMO , and I do not see it as an issue.

 

I have saved a few of my Father's prototypes from over the years, as unfortunately we had to get rid of most everything.
There is one prototype that could have gone into production, that I wish I kept.

He took the 3-4 clutch apply cage and machined a roughly 0.500" x 0.500" window into each of the 5 cage fingers.
The top of these windows were roughly 1.375" from the top of the fingers.

Then he took the apply plate that has the 5 small legs that engage the apply cage.
He added large stamped steel legs that extend down from the area of the small original legs.
Each of the large legs would extend down to, and through the windows that were machined into the apply cage.
These large legs had a matching design to the windows in the apply cage, and would interlock and mate/ engage together.

He then had new apply plates made in a few different materials that integrated the new additional large legs.
It made for a much stiffer apply cage system.

He said that the clutch packs had stopped coning with this modification.
But he already had 8-count clutch sets holding at over 1,000 HP, and said that it did not matter if the clutches come out coned.
The clutch pack was surviving with 0.096" steels +/- a 0.106" steel and a custom backing plate.

He also taught me that at a point, there will be enough surface area and fluid pressure to hold the clutch...
From there, now there needs to be enough material (steel plate thickness) to "heat-sink" the clutch properly.

More clutch surface area instead is not going to prevent clutch burn-up.
He said that he often would see many units that were "over clutched" and would have been better off with thicker steel plates instead.

 

Frank,

I may be misunderstanding you, but are you saying that you feel the threads for the screw-on backing plate of the 4L79 Drum may be of concern?
I'm just curious.


I have not touched a 4L79 Drum in about 3 or 4 years, but I seem to remember no durability issues with the thread engagement when we used them.
We have had them in some THM700-R4 Units that were pumping 300+ Psi of line pressure.

I only feel that the clutch clearance would have to be rather excessive in order to have the hammering effect needed to blow those threads apart.

 

I am not saying it would be a concern but at 40 percent more apply of force applied, While I don't know the exact area of the lid, 300 psi for example would be 440psi . Just something I was thinking should be considered and really with the SONNAX to as the little screws might have the same issue. I am as you all know more partial to the sonnax drum not over design but rather through talking and dealing with them I know they use NEW GM drums to make the product and since really I have had great successes over the years with the stock top plate and snap ring on 800hp and much more vehicles, The tops of both are nice but the brand new drum makes the sonnax more appealing as I see more leaking drums and centers worn that popped off tops at the clip .
Of course this drum mixed with then that plus would be nil, So my next concern would be the treads on one to and the screws on the other, Which indeed might not be an issue on either but something to certainly take into consideration .

Particularly with I think its the 4l79 drum and since the frictions and steels are custom short of using the very early pre 7 fingers i call then and cutting them down no means exist to actually set the clutch clearance to the usual at least for me on the tighter side to limit the hammer effect

But neither may be an issue at all, In my case I would have no method to test this except real world .( Guess it would be up to whichever of the two partnered up to set up some real time pressure test on this . It would require a set up that could repeatedly apply the set at full estimated line to duplicate the effect . Just apply pressure itself would not show this , you would need presure-clearance- apply speed impact at various clutch pack clearance to see just how much it would take and set some method to adjust or just make sure it can take the worst case a very high clearance at more than expected max line and feed size, What I call the ovekill test .

 

As far as I remember in threads working 1/2 height of teeth to prevent sliding
4l79 uses whole drum to thread
Sonnax and 78 uses only screws middle line of thread * quantity of screws
I think 79 much stronger due to more long middle line of a thread

 

It possibly is only test could determine, But as far as If i wanted to use the new drum we are discussing to duplicate one or the other. The Sonnax I think would be the easy of the two as I can buy the Sonnax top stand alone, Cutting the drum on lathe and drilling tapping for the screws easy enough, Setting up to do the 79 drum would IMO be much more involved and require greater precision than is within my present tooling.
I have used both drums with great success, My preference to the sonnax is only because I do know they use NEW drum as the start .Now the 79 drum may be the same presently but I do not know this.
Not saying which is better just things I do know,. Both are great product's , I was just saying if I wanted to duplicate one with the FI drum as the base the Sonnax would be the easier of the two.
The 79 MOST certainly with perhaps some added steel thickness variations to play with clutch pack clearance. Provided shown to for sure handle the additional 40 percent force (it is a huge jump ) would be the superior set up surely. But the sonnax set up is something I could duplicate for testing purposes real world with my own limited machining capabilities is all .