FranksCustomTrans

Decided to make this thread and see where it goes, This is open to all builders, Tech experts, engineers and anyone who just wants to learn and ask questions or disscuss various mods and ways of doing things. I have no issue with sharing as the way I see it those who will build thier own will either way and those that come to me for a build come for my expereincem expertise and quality and they will qhatever they may read or learn here,
This is not a place to belitte or put down other ways or idea though disscussion and alterane ways are welcome along with questioning of the whys.
Recognize this I am not the end all be all of knowelege on these or any unit or anything , In fact IMO anyone who thinks they are is a fool.
Please feel free to post and help us all learn and become more enlightned. Moderators and Admins please feel free to remove any post if someone seem rude or not being cordial

FranksCustomTrans

I will go first with my version of what I call THE OVERUN MOD This mod keeps the Overun clutch on during all forward gear positions only terminating when in actual 4th gear, It vents the oil via the 3-4 signal valve when the trans shifts to 4th. Yes this also results in some venting of the forward clutch oil but since it is not used in 4th it poses no issue. Other methods do exist to do this others may input ranging from where the oil source is to method.

What does it do ? It ads support to the input sprag helping prevent roller over or shattering by not allowing it to free wheel during coast in lower gears and comes back on during a 4-3 kickdown to support the sprag , In addition it provides additional support during launches.

What are the downsides? Engine braking feel while driving and on downshift to second while coasting to a stop . Most timesjust a little bump coming to a stop but in some cases build with large billet servos and or tuning mods which keep line up during coast down and I have noted persons with super chargers where vaccume can go low during a downshift coast causing low map reading can cause a presure spoke that can be somewhat uncomfortable.

How ? Its a simple mod blocking the two holes in the plate in what many call the bathtub position and then cutting gasket to connect the overun to the forward clutch circuit as shown in photo. This can be done with solder. or since i mostly use the new plates with made on gasket I use lathe to make small coned aluminum plugs that can be inserted then hit with hammer to fix them in place.

Note with the 05 vettes one of the holes in the bathtub is already blocked and they already have a GM version of the D3 type mod that happens with the sonnax valve . But this mod still works with those also.
Also note this mod will work with the sonnax HD 2-3 valve but with this mod it serves no purpose over the stock valve.

FranksCustomTrans

This is my 3-4 clutch setup in my stage 2-3 editons, The springs in cage are non stock but have a higher spring tension than stock and with observation over the years unlike the stock style even when badly heated they retain the spring. And of course taller.

The steels are drilled then chamfered and polished to trap oil to aid in cooling again observation of the years I have noted when had one come back for a presure or many time wrong filter installed issue with deep pan and the frictions and steels got hot with this set up the steels pretty much without fail were still perfectly flat.

The apply plate even new ones is machined just enough to make sure flat I have noted even new stock ones when platced on lathe were not infact flat

The backing plate is also machined in lathe on clutch contact side just enough to make sure is flat then the top cut arround edge for the snap ring which I prefer the stock thick ring in addition the ridge created keep ring pushed out towards drum.

The 2-3 shift valve is machined to accept the added spring to help push the valve into the 3rd gear position faster. It is a rather stiff spring . It has the added advantage when accompanied with the Overun Mod of slowing the 3-2 at low line like during coast lessoning the downshift feel associated with it,

The frictions shown are alto , I use those in eveything except the stage 3 which gets GPZ frictions though have been equally happy with the performance of both.

The steels are arround tolerance seems to vary .062 to .073 alto but at times use raybestos depends on avalability I try to use as many thicker steels as possible , The dry clearance is set at .020 I have noted this will open up after several high presure applies both with air and particulary in car or on dyno with high fliud presure to about .035 or so.



In all the builds the 3-4 feed is .100

Thoughts? Opinions ? Ideas

FranksCustomTrans

This is the way I do a band cooling mod, Yes some already exist but are cut off as the band tightens and if it slips any when cruisng such as in 4th gear when presure are realitivley low particulary when towing
The picture is where its done with bit to show at an angle, It is a number 60 wire size . about .030 inches .
I have not yet figure out how to upload a video from my phone to here so will include link to showing it actually spray, The spray was done with a brake cleaner can so you can imagine it is quite a spray at line presure in a sealed enviroment .This helps keep the drum cool during apply and as mention lower presure conditions where it might slip some. Note that even with a quick apply like on my own car it shows .250 sec for shift time at 6000 rpm that would mean the drum still makes about 1700 revolutions during that apply sliding band to drum and that equals alot of heat. Spray lands right in the band gap all during this while the other factory orifice are cut off by band position as it applies.
The 60 wire size probably supplies more than neeeded however I have never been able to sucessfully drill smaller through the case. Optionally yoou could drill a larger hole and install an orifice cup plug from the pump or like is used in the accum side of the 2nd servo but I worry the case is rather thin there and it might be able to push out making a huge leak in the fwd clutch circuit. I do also though probabaly not needed enlarge the fwd clutch feed in the plate by one drill size to compensate for any loss due to the orificed bleed created by this mod.
Video link -

band cooling mod functional

Facebook Post

FranksCustomTrans

Note this tread is not just for my mods and such hoping other chime in also with their own simple mods etc. I just happen to be building a stage 2 unit right now so good chance for photos and examples.

mrvedit

In another thread @vorteciroc brought up the issue of (2nd) servo apply and release balance needed to prevent 2->3 binds or flares. In the 1000+ threads I have read here never seen that discussed. Sure I have read that if a Corvette servo is used, then a particular hole in the separator plate should be drilled to a particular size. Or a quick discussion of which servo release springs to use. I think most of us DYI'ers simply follow the directions in e.g. the Transgo HD2 shift kit and leave it at that. I good discussion of that would be interesting here. Even better, a table listing different OEM and aftermarket servos and what springs and separator plate drillings to use for each. And of course, what to do if a bind or flare is noticed.

With all the "secrets" Frank is sharing in this and other posts, I may pull and rebuild my 4L65E just to be sure I did it "right".

mrvedit

I see that this has the advantage of keeping the Overrun clutch engaged for 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear in ALL forward shifter positions; the Sonnax HD 2-3 valve only engages the Overrun clutch in the D1, D2 and D3 shifter positions.
I suspect that driver's rarely remember to put the shifter into D3 for performance use; meaning the Sonnax part is rarely utilized.
It also has the advantage that it is reversible by installing/modifying the separator plate; in contrast the Sonnax is not reversible because it requires cutting a slot in the case.

FranksCustomTrans

I generally Keep the stock band release size "accum" with up to the corvette servo but make sure its at least the same as the apply side 2nd feed. I use .092 pretty much consistantly for 2nd feed . Now when its a larger servo AKA sonnax and or superior in particular I size down the 2nd to .082 but keep the larger release. I do use the superior servo in my max unit but with the cushion spring type. Some think that means this syle retains acccumulation for 3rd and to a tiny tiny extent that is true in so far as the return spring offers some but the servo itself NONE. In order for the servo to provide any a size differental of area must exist between the two sides. I do in all cases replace the servo return spring with the return spring for the 400 and 80e int brake band as I noted on tear down of units particularly using D rings the servo stuck in a mostly applied condition which it was left in coming to a stop on the 2-1 downshift. This is one reason also I choose the teflon rings over the D Rings in all applications.

FranksCustomTrans

Yes i do like its reversable because in some rare instances you will get the "Performance" guy who is more worried about comfort and is anoyed by the downshift feel on the 3-2 coming to a stop which as mentioned while is ussually a moderate bump in some cases and conditions like I mentioned in my post can be a bit agressive. So its a simple fix if they are persistant but while it has only happened once or twice someone decided to undo it . I simply tell them as far as warranty if the sprag rolls or breaks it will not be covered . Also note the bumps agression can be moderated in tuning however I have learned Tuners for the most part hate working in the trans table and undersdtandablly so as they are more complicated than some think they are affected by engine tune, vacume, maf and more not just simple TPS verses RPM verses MPH like some peopel seem to think. Like the vaccum drop I noted with one customers super charged ap[lication, He was getting a really excessive bump on tyhe 32 coast down with the overun mod. It coresponded with a large vaccum drop with the MAP noted which caused a spike in line presure at that moment. I actually ran into this twice , One customer did solve it in tuning unfortunately he like many never followed up and shared what he did,. Which as we all know is a common issue here in the forums many come in ask questions and take advice but once issue is solved you never hear back from them and they dont post what the fix actually was which is unfortunate.
Please excuse some of my typos I will fix later as I need to get to work lol.

mrvedit

Frank, in your thread about your build sheets, you list all the nice parts that go into your Stage-2 builds. Then you add:
The stage 3 gets all the same except sonnax shell. re-enforcement collar for input drum and OEM five pinion planets

We have had endless discussions about the OEM 5-pinion versus 4-pinion planets. Some (many?) experienced builders have pointed out that the 5-pinion planets are unnecessary. I think that @vorteciroc is among those; perhaps he then can explain why GM even created the 5-pinion planets if they really have little benefit. IIRC due to rear planet oiling issues and the side load from the OEM sunshell design, GM created a new planet design and simply made it 5 pinions at the same time.
In terms of them in your Stage-3 rebuilds, as I pointed out in another thread, it's not always what's best or what's needed, but rather what the customer expects. Since GM included them in the upgraded 4L65E, they have a reputation of being better and the desired part.
The Sonnax shell's design eliminates the damaging side load to the rear planet I mentioned above. And reinforcing the input drum eliminates another potential trouble area. So two really good upgrades.

I wonder if it might make more sense to add something else to the Stage-3 build and then make the 5-pinion planets an extra cost option? Do you re-use 4-pinion planets and perhaps always install brand new 5-pinion planets?

FranksCustomTrans

Honestly on the 5 pinion, It is because its what people want , the logic I assume is more load bearing area and yes 4 pinons are reused as long as perfect . 5 pinions may be reused perfect or new but always OEM no matter what (except for the Sonnax of course ), Mostly depends on whats available, I will not use non OEM but did figure out the failure point with the non OEM and it is a pretty easy fix but a design flaw more so than a strength issue, Because of the way they cut the housing at the front gear fluild at high RPM and theyre can be considerable amount pushed down on the washer,
The washer with in OEM or thiers is pretty thin but with the OEM its supported equally from both sides and that opening in the aftermarket is not there, The washer flexs down with the aftermarket and gets pulled into the gear assembly BOOM! . Several methods can be used to correct this and they can hold up quiet well , But that is not what people are paying for, they expect and will get OEM from me by whatever means .
I really cant think of anything to add to the stage 3 without encroaching on the MAX units,
Now once I have my website up , I plan a build your own type deal starting with the base build then drop down to add stuff at additional cost which i can do now but they have to call me for price and of course if they add something or need something I think I need to talk to them about I will contact them .
Me personally I would be confortable at any power level with 4 or 5 pinion planets as my feeling about the 5 pinion is it was more about load bearing and long term wear than strength in the update. Much like sonnax USES 6 IN thier planet the smaller gears have less load area so adding two made sense.
The biggest argument I have heard of 5 verses 4 in OEM is about the material the housing is made of though I have not studied it heavily its claimed the 4 housing is made of a stronger steel than the 5 pinion. But I can certainly see how 5 pinions would expand load bearing area on the planet gears themselves and potentially reduce longer term wear .
But I have indeed witnessed both 4 and 5 standing up at 800 plus RWHP in some heavy trucks I have built for in the past.
Now if it was me I would opt for the sonnax input drum over 5 pinoins if those were my choices budget wise as to me the drum is the weakest point in all of it. I also love the new double collar for both areas of drum at shaft you can get from them now.
One issue I have run into a few times recently with the sonnax bushing collar re-enforcment. maybe a quirp but I had two in a row i sent back because they literally slide on with my hand But have not heard any others with that issue. So not made a big deal of it.

FranksCustomTrans

Off subject kinda but man I look at some of these facebook trans groups for 4l60e and some of the stuff they post and go OMG how do these people get anything to work?
Misidentifed holes, valves, functions the list goes on and on and they are giving advice ? I dont even bother to correct because well it results in an argument lol.
I am sure some of the people here besides me vist those too and know what I mean it can be very frustrating to read, But if you let yourself get sucked in you will waste your whole day lol.

GMCSIERRA5.3

Awesome thread frank...what do you use/recommend for boost valve/ pr spring? Do you turn the epc screw any?

B52bombardier1

I will read every word on this thread. Not so much for me to ever be a transmission rebuilder but to have a better informed discussion with my rebuilder when the inevitable day comes that I need work on a 4L60E . . . again. I've got one more swap vehicle creation in me (me thinks, a 70 Pontiac Catalina Convertible) and it'll very likely have a 4L60E.

Rick

FranksCustomTrans

I dont turn the EPC screw but i do have a unque set up for the boost valve I will post later it involves using the .500 boost valve with an added spring, It will actually however yeild a max line of around 220 with any boost valve. I will post photo of it later today and spring source .

FranksCustomTrans

I use this set up adding a small spring to the boost valve. It has little effect on the lower part throttle presure but guarantees arround 210 to 225 at WOT max line regardless of boost valve size.

FranksCustomTrans

2-4 band clearance - I was ask about this, I like it to be as close as possible but with zero drag on the drum and i like to check this with the servo return spring installed as it does have an affect along with at least the rear half of the pump in the case to center the reverse input drum. I have seen where it appeared the band had adequate clearance but either drug or even locked down with the pump or pump half installed.
The 4th servo set up particulary with the flat after market servos (never understood why none ads the little hump on the servo on case side as I have noted without it the actual travel of the 4th servo is very limited) making it very important this is not too loose. ) If i was designing one if nessesary i would forgo some on the cap side which is seems all keep and add it back on the case side of the 4th servo like the facory servo has.
When ever possible I am partial to the sonnax long servo pin with the oring and teflon rings I have noted considerable leakage with the stock pin in the pin bore over the years more and more so as they have gotten older. I wonder if anyone will eventially come out with a reamer and oversize pin for the servo bore?

GMCSIERRA5.3

awesome..may i ask what spring that is? And does it make that wot pressure with factory pr and bumper spring?

FranksCustomTrans

The spring is from a harbor freight spring kit , I will take photo later to show which in it is and yes with all other stock components of the PR valve. Though I generally end up replacing it because its smaller than I prefer to the .500 valve, But with the spring in you can do an easy leak test, Put a little fluid in it push down with finger then block hole with finger, If it stays down or come up really slow (sometimes its hard to get a good seal with thumb over hole) then its good. The little spring is pretty stiff.

sjsingle1

iTrader: (1)

is that a TG boost valve ? how do you feel about the sonnax BV ?