what are the important things to consider when selecting a TC
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,380
Likes: 14
From: Atlanta, GA Ft. Walton Beach, FL
what are the important things to consider when selecting a TC what are the important things to consider when selecting a TC?
Thinking of not bigger than 3K stall unsure of STR? because it closely matches my cam & gears.
1.lockup or non lockup? what is stock?
2.diameter? I'm seeing that the smaller daimeter is more for racers this is a daily driver
3. wieght
4.antibolaning plates (I'm thinking this is a must have making it durabile)?
5. # of bearings and type?
6. expect to pay ? I've be adviced that the best are. in this order 1.PTC 2.Yank 3.Vig they are pricie . It's also been suggested not to even consider a cheaply priced TC
I am consulting the experts (you guys) to find the pros & cons of TC features & to know what to get before I get it.
Thanks
Thinking of not bigger than 3K stall unsure of STR? because it closely matches my cam & gears.
1.lockup or non lockup? what is stock?
2.diameter? I'm seeing that the smaller daimeter is more for racers this is a daily driver
3. wieght
4.antibolaning plates (I'm thinking this is a must have making it durabile)?
5. # of bearings and type?
6. expect to pay ? I've be adviced that the best are. in this order 1.PTC 2.Yank 3.Vig they are pricie . It's also been suggested not to even consider a cheaply priced TC
I am consulting the experts (you guys) to find the pros & cons of TC features & to know what to get before I get it.
Thanks
Last edited by badmfkr; Apr 3, 2006 at 09:01 AM.
1.lockup or non lockup? what is stock?
Lockup, like stock. Be sure to dig into the particulars of the clutch, get the
mfr to say whether it will lock up as strongly as stock, with stock trans
settings (some out there, are pretty wimpy).
2.diameter? I'm seeing that the smaller daimeter is more for racers this is a daily driver
10" is the norm for street performance, 12" or so is stock diameter. Less
diameter = less angular momentum to spin up (more to wheels on hard
acceleration) but less stabilizing for idle, more chance of (bogus) misfire
detects, etc. Pick a good 10" model says I.
3. wieght
You get what you get, driven by diameter. Not a point to chase after, you
want the performance (and drivability) more, get the guts right.
4.antibolaning plates (I'm thinking this is a must have making it durabile)?
Think this is kind of oversold for a moderate performance, non-screamer
application. Same for billet front housings, though my current has the
latter. It's probably a no- or low-cost "feature" though. Most any "name"
converter will probably have one or the other.
5. # of bearings and type?
No idea, never considered this.
6. expect to pay ? I've be adviced that the best are. in this order 1.PTC 2.Yank 3.Vig they are pricie . It's also been suggested not to even consider a cheaply priced TC
Not familiar with PTC. Yank & Vig (a brand of Precision Industries) have
been around a good while. I think Yank has better combinations and
more of them. TCI 3000 is a good efficient moderate performance
converter, just a bit weak in the clutch. I moved on to a Fuddle 3500/2.0
which holds much tougher, a bit less efficient (higher stall, w/o moving
up in engine RPM). For stock cam, street tires and 3.23s on a daily driver
I think between 3000 and 3500 stall speed, between 2.0 and 2.2 STR, a
good strong lockup clutch and an efficient design are your key points.
More top end, raise the stall speed; more tire / less gear, raise STR.
I paid about $400 for the TCI years back, a bit over $500 for the Fuddle
"Performance Street" model because it offered the bigger, WOT-lockup-
capable clutch and I wanted a combination of higher stall, lower STR that
wasn't covered by other vendors (at the time) but could be had, custom.
Lockup, like stock. Be sure to dig into the particulars of the clutch, get the
mfr to say whether it will lock up as strongly as stock, with stock trans
settings (some out there, are pretty wimpy).
2.diameter? I'm seeing that the smaller daimeter is more for racers this is a daily driver
10" is the norm for street performance, 12" or so is stock diameter. Less
diameter = less angular momentum to spin up (more to wheels on hard
acceleration) but less stabilizing for idle, more chance of (bogus) misfire
detects, etc. Pick a good 10" model says I.
3. wieght
You get what you get, driven by diameter. Not a point to chase after, you
want the performance (and drivability) more, get the guts right.
4.antibolaning plates (I'm thinking this is a must have making it durabile)?
Think this is kind of oversold for a moderate performance, non-screamer
application. Same for billet front housings, though my current has the
latter. It's probably a no- or low-cost "feature" though. Most any "name"
converter will probably have one or the other.
5. # of bearings and type?
No idea, never considered this.
6. expect to pay ? I've be adviced that the best are. in this order 1.PTC 2.Yank 3.Vig they are pricie . It's also been suggested not to even consider a cheaply priced TC
Not familiar with PTC. Yank & Vig (a brand of Precision Industries) have
been around a good while. I think Yank has better combinations and
more of them. TCI 3000 is a good efficient moderate performance
converter, just a bit weak in the clutch. I moved on to a Fuddle 3500/2.0
which holds much tougher, a bit less efficient (higher stall, w/o moving
up in engine RPM). For stock cam, street tires and 3.23s on a daily driver
I think between 3000 and 3500 stall speed, between 2.0 and 2.2 STR, a
good strong lockup clutch and an efficient design are your key points.
More top end, raise the stall speed; more tire / less gear, raise STR.
I paid about $400 for the TCI years back, a bit over $500 for the Fuddle
"Performance Street" model because it offered the bigger, WOT-lockup-
capable clutch and I wanted a combination of higher stall, lower STR that
wasn't covered by other vendors (at the time) but could be had, custom.
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,380
Likes: 14
From: Atlanta, GA Ft. Walton Beach, FL
When you say lockup as stronge as stock you're referring to tightness?
because I've been told these preformance TC never really lockup at the advertised rate.
when you say and I wanted a combination of higher stall, lower STR so with my choice being slitely lower stall I would want a higher STR?
Thanks Jimmy for the facts
because I've been told these preformance TC never really lockup at the advertised rate.
when you say and I wanted a combination of higher stall, lower STR so with my choice being slitely lower stall I would want a higher STR?
Thanks Jimmy for the facts
A good clutch will have zero slip with the TCC "circuit"
fully applied. I tuned for that and still could not hold on
light grades. TCC slip makes hellacious heat. You -can-
get a strong clutch in a 10" converter, but you have to
shop around. This is all different from tight/loose in the
fluid coupling, which is what most people talk about.
That is more feel / performance related.
If you intend to shift below 6000RPM I'd stay at or below
a 3500 RPM stall speed. Increase it RPM for RPM from
there. Bear in mind though that the coupling is going to
be "elastic" with engine torque and a blower will effectively
up that.
STR is the initial hit. It is somewhat related to stall speed
by construction, within a "family" but you can negotiate
some. A car with street tires doesn't need a hard hit unless
you like making smoke. A high STR, about the same stall
speed, waits longer to couple up and then couples up
harder / faster; like a 2.5 STR, 3500 might not move at
all under 1500RPM, cruise level at 2000, climb hill
at 2500 while a 2.0 like mine will creep at 800, cruise at
1500 on the level and climb the same hill at 2000. More
mellow on the street, potentially more efficient but less
ultimate thrust off the line (presuming you have the
tires and suspension to do it justice). The lower STR
also should multiply torque further up in RPM where the
2.5 would be 1:1. Yank has some good material on this
but very few makers bother (or can) to put up the details
on the converter profile.
I think a high STR converter is for keeping a peaky car in
its powerband while a low STR one is better for maximizing
broad-range torque. You don't have the cam to be that
peaky, it looks like an all-around performance recipe to me
rather than a drag toy.
The last thing to consider is, efficiency; you stand to gain
30-40HP at the top end by one point of efficiency, and
there's well more than that between vendors at the same
stall speed point; further, some become maximally efficient
with the driving powerband and some have not yet peaked
before you shift out. My old TCI showed me 97% and a
reasonable little flat-top; my Fuddle is still trying to get to
96% (not bad, for that stall speed) by the time I shift. I'm
hoping that's because there's still a little multiplication
going on, but only the dyno will tell on that one. Your
inefficiency is not necessarily the full slip %, it just -could-
be if you've dropped to unity. Yank's SY3500 is the only
97%-efficient advertised model in that range I've seen
but it has a very low STR; a very sensible road race piece
but not the kind of gear that drag-crazy types go for in
chasing the ultimate 60' time.
A 3000/2.0 would be a very sensible street/road converter.
MNR-0 got some pretty good results off his Fuddle at that
build-target. I aimed a little higher in speed just because
my long term plans include a 220-duration cam and some
ported truck heads, and about a 6500 shift point when all
is done, and I didn't want to change converters later.
My 3000/2.2 TCI was pretty well matched to the 3.23s
but would still spin them well into 2nd. I'd stay there, or go
lower in STR depending on what you plan for tires. I think
2.5 is good for the 2.73 cars that need more of a slap on
the *** to get 'em going. Or a car with slicks.
fully applied. I tuned for that and still could not hold on
light grades. TCC slip makes hellacious heat. You -can-
get a strong clutch in a 10" converter, but you have to
shop around. This is all different from tight/loose in the
fluid coupling, which is what most people talk about.
That is more feel / performance related.
If you intend to shift below 6000RPM I'd stay at or below
a 3500 RPM stall speed. Increase it RPM for RPM from
there. Bear in mind though that the coupling is going to
be "elastic" with engine torque and a blower will effectively
up that.
STR is the initial hit. It is somewhat related to stall speed
by construction, within a "family" but you can negotiate
some. A car with street tires doesn't need a hard hit unless
you like making smoke. A high STR, about the same stall
speed, waits longer to couple up and then couples up
harder / faster; like a 2.5 STR, 3500 might not move at
all under 1500RPM, cruise level at 2000, climb hill
at 2500 while a 2.0 like mine will creep at 800, cruise at
1500 on the level and climb the same hill at 2000. More
mellow on the street, potentially more efficient but less
ultimate thrust off the line (presuming you have the
tires and suspension to do it justice). The lower STR
also should multiply torque further up in RPM where the
2.5 would be 1:1. Yank has some good material on this
but very few makers bother (or can) to put up the details
on the converter profile.
I think a high STR converter is for keeping a peaky car in
its powerband while a low STR one is better for maximizing
broad-range torque. You don't have the cam to be that
peaky, it looks like an all-around performance recipe to me
rather than a drag toy.
The last thing to consider is, efficiency; you stand to gain
30-40HP at the top end by one point of efficiency, and
there's well more than that between vendors at the same
stall speed point; further, some become maximally efficient
with the driving powerband and some have not yet peaked
before you shift out. My old TCI showed me 97% and a
reasonable little flat-top; my Fuddle is still trying to get to
96% (not bad, for that stall speed) by the time I shift. I'm
hoping that's because there's still a little multiplication
going on, but only the dyno will tell on that one. Your
inefficiency is not necessarily the full slip %, it just -could-
be if you've dropped to unity. Yank's SY3500 is the only
97%-efficient advertised model in that range I've seen
but it has a very low STR; a very sensible road race piece
but not the kind of gear that drag-crazy types go for in
chasing the ultimate 60' time.
A 3000/2.0 would be a very sensible street/road converter.
MNR-0 got some pretty good results off his Fuddle at that
build-target. I aimed a little higher in speed just because
my long term plans include a 220-duration cam and some
ported truck heads, and about a 6500 shift point when all
is done, and I didn't want to change converters later.
My 3000/2.2 TCI was pretty well matched to the 3.23s
but would still spin them well into 2nd. I'd stay there, or go
lower in STR depending on what you plan for tires. I think
2.5 is good for the 2.73 cars that need more of a slap on
the *** to get 'em going. Or a car with slicks.
I don't know a lot about converters. However, call John at Fuddle Racing and he will help you pick the best one for your application. He has been nothing but help throughout the whole process; even halting the production of mine to change the settings on it and everything. I HIGHLY reccommend Fuddle, best service I've had for anything, ever.
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,380
Likes: 14
From: Atlanta, GA Ft. Walton Beach, FL
You don't have the cam to be that
peaky, it looks like an all-around performance recipe to me
rather than a drag toy.
Correct I did'nt want a peakie Large duration cam. most here seam to ignore the part of my TC posts about it being a daily driver. is a STR under 1.9 considered a very low STR. being better suited for me.
seams like the STR is exactly what is say's a ratio of the stall # meaning higher shall = higher STR.
I don't have time to completely read you're facts but will later.
Jimmy you are obviously knowelgeable at this subject talk more later
Thanks
peaky, it looks like an all-around performance recipe to me
rather than a drag toy.
Correct I did'nt want a peakie Large duration cam. most here seam to ignore the part of my TC posts about it being a daily driver. is a STR under 1.9 considered a very low STR. being better suited for me.
seams like the STR is exactly what is say's a ratio of the stall # meaning higher shall = higher STR.
I don't have time to completely read you're facts but will later.
Jimmy you are obviously knowelgeable at this subject talk more later
Thanks
