Why are most of you scared......
Originally Posted by darrensls1
Contrary to what some people think, there is such a thing as too much stall. There are three key factors regarding torque converters.
1). Stall speed
2). STR
3). Shift Extension
All three need to work together with your vehicles setup to gain the optimal performance. If you put a 4400 stall with a 2.7 STR and a 5000 rpm shift extension on a bone stock LS1 then guess what happens? It spins sideways on the launch for one. Then when it does get going it'll feel like it "fell on its face". But the stall is big (go big or go home I think someone said) so why would it perform bad?
1). The stall size is too big. 4000+ stalls do not play well with 2.73/3.23 gears. The bigger stalls tend to perform better with the bigger gears. 3.73 would be a good choice for anything 4000+ IMO.
2). The STR is rediculously big for street tires. The launch will be impossible causing no better 60' then a stock converter could do (in many cases even worse).
3). The shift extension is too big. If you look at a dyno of a stock LS1 they make peak torque at 3500-4500 rpm's but start to slightly fall off after that. So by shift extending to 5000 rpm's you are bypassing usable powerband.
So if a stock LS1 was a daily driver, had 2.73 gears and the owner has no plans for any mods beyond say lid, catback and the converter itself then what is a good TC choice? IMO that very basic application calls for a 3000 stall with a 2.0 STR and a 4000 rpm shift extension. This converter (again for this application) will make a half second difference in the 1/4 mile, feel far more street friendly, not completly roast street tires and not put you beyond a stock motors powerband.
Big cams want bigger stalls, Big N20 shots want smaller stalls and of course sticky tires love bigger STR's.
Streetable is widely considered a matter of opinion. But for stock motors and gears it's popular opinion that:
3000 is super tight
3500-3800 is loose but very easy to get used to
4000 is very loose but can be tolerated by many
4200+ is wicked loose and generally not done on stock internals/gears
So basically you should consider everything when picking a stall. Your gears, current mods, furture mods (realistic ones anyway and especially N20), vehicle usage (daily driver, track only, street & strip), tires you want or are willing to run on and of course your personal limit on how loose you are willing to put up with.
Then and only then can you pick the torque converter that's right for you.
1). Stall speed
2). STR
3). Shift Extension
All three need to work together with your vehicles setup to gain the optimal performance. If you put a 4400 stall with a 2.7 STR and a 5000 rpm shift extension on a bone stock LS1 then guess what happens? It spins sideways on the launch for one. Then when it does get going it'll feel like it "fell on its face". But the stall is big (go big or go home I think someone said) so why would it perform bad?
1). The stall size is too big. 4000+ stalls do not play well with 2.73/3.23 gears. The bigger stalls tend to perform better with the bigger gears. 3.73 would be a good choice for anything 4000+ IMO.
2). The STR is rediculously big for street tires. The launch will be impossible causing no better 60' then a stock converter could do (in many cases even worse).
3). The shift extension is too big. If you look at a dyno of a stock LS1 they make peak torque at 3500-4500 rpm's but start to slightly fall off after that. So by shift extending to 5000 rpm's you are bypassing usable powerband.
So if a stock LS1 was a daily driver, had 2.73 gears and the owner has no plans for any mods beyond say lid, catback and the converter itself then what is a good TC choice? IMO that very basic application calls for a 3000 stall with a 2.0 STR and a 4000 rpm shift extension. This converter (again for this application) will make a half second difference in the 1/4 mile, feel far more street friendly, not completly roast street tires and not put you beyond a stock motors powerband.
Big cams want bigger stalls, Big N20 shots want smaller stalls and of course sticky tires love bigger STR's.
Streetable is widely considered a matter of opinion. But for stock motors and gears it's popular opinion that:
3000 is super tight
3500-3800 is loose but very easy to get used to
4000 is very loose but can be tolerated by many
4200+ is wicked loose and generally not done on stock internals/gears
So basically you should consider everything when picking a stall. Your gears, current mods, furture mods (realistic ones anyway and especially N20), vehicle usage (daily driver, track only, street & strip), tires you want or are willing to run on and of course your personal limit on how loose you are willing to put up with.
Then and only then can you pick the torque converter that's right for you.
good post, thanks to eveyone who has provided info! I just ordered a fuddle 3400 2.1 str. current mods are lid and nittos future mods are all bolt ons and 150 wet way down the road. maybe a cam if i feel stupid
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 315
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NICK Z28, you say you did not have any problems with mileage? I assume you
mean you did not care that your gas mileage suffered. I have an SS3500 and mine went down conciderably around town. Higher rpms at a given speed = more gas used.
mean you did not care that your gas mileage suffered. I have an SS3500 and mine went down conciderably around town. Higher rpms at a given speed = more gas used.
Thread Starter
11 Second Club
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 190
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Originally Posted by Rare96WS6
NICK Z28, you say you did not have any problems with mileage? I assume you
mean you did not care that your gas mileage suffered. I have an SS3500 and mine went down conciderably around town. Higher rpms at a given speed = more gas used.
mean you did not care that your gas mileage suffered. I have an SS3500 and mine went down conciderably around town. Higher rpms at a given speed = more gas used.
To all the guys that are hesitant about getting a stall, DO IT!!!. I have a full bolt on TA and the stall gave me more seato of the pants feeling and a bigger smile on my face than any of the other mods.
How rough would a bigger stall be on all-seasons (goodrich gforce kwds)? would even like a 3000 rpm stall just destroy these tires and leave me with no traction? in other words, are drag radials necesary? thanks.
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,216
Likes: 236
From: Wichita KS / Rancho San Diego
Originally Posted by 00badSScamaro
How rough would a bigger stall be on all-seasons (goodrich gforce kwds)? would even like a 3000 rpm stall just destroy these tires and leave me with no traction? in other words, are drag radials necesary? thanks.
11 Second Club
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,847
Likes: 1
From: Sandwich, IL
Originally Posted by 00badSScamaro
How rough would a bigger stall be on all-seasons (goodrich gforce kwds)? would even like a 3000 rpm stall just destroy these tires and leave me with no traction? in other words, are drag radials necesary? thanks.
But drag radials are NOT necassary. You won't be able to floor it from a stop but you can floor it from 20 mph and above roll (with stock gears anyway). No you can't get big launches on the street but you can train your foot to know just how much gas you can give it without going sideways and then floor it after that. It just takes a little time to learn how to drive your car again.
If my car was a daily driver and driven in all weather then I would do three things:
1). Pick a moderate stall size (3000-3800 most likely). The STR's for this range should be beeen 2.0 - 2.6 which will be fine.
2). Re-learn how to launch the car and enjoy the vastly improved dead spot.
3). Buy a pair of cheap replica rims and put drag radials on them. Now you have something stickier then street tires for track day (if that's your thing) or even for some nice summer weather. So if no rain is forcasted for the next seven days then maybe I slip on the DR's.
I am doing this right now myself except not with street tires. I don't daily drive mine anymore so I have Nitto 555R's for the street and a pair of M/T for the track
Hope this helped.
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,216
Likes: 236
From: Wichita KS / Rancho San Diego
Originally Posted by darrensls1
But drag radials are NOT necassary. You won't be able to floor it from a stop but you can floor it from 20 mph and above roll (with stock gears anyway). No you can't get big launches on the street but you can train your foot to know just how much gas you can give it without going sideways and then floor it after that. It just takes a little time to learn how to drive your car again. I don't daily drive mine anymore so I have Nitto 555R's for the street and a pair of M/T for the track.
Teching In
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 18
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From: Bath, ME
3600 fuddle I had a tci 3000 and all my friends made fun of me. They told me i was stupid going that low. After driving my buddies '00 B4C w/a 4000 fuddle i decided to switch to a 3600 from fuddle. Now that I've driven it for a few weeks I'm think'in 4000 no problem. Whats a set of mt radials a year, pending of course i can keep my foot out of it enough to last.
The funniest thing is that all the guys at the shop i work at (Dodge Dealer) say how stupid it is to think a stall alone can make that much difference! I suppose having the quickest ride on the entire lot being a GM they must be insulted.
The funniest thing is that all the guys at the shop i work at (Dodge Dealer) say how stupid it is to think a stall alone can make that much difference! I suppose having the quickest ride on the entire lot being a GM they must be insulted.
well I now own nicks car and the SS4k is going back in it. Properly tuned its almost exactly the same as stock driveability. 