Yank

iTrader: (181)

Each part is made from the steel or alum that in needed to get the job done, and is not the same used in all parts.
higher demand parts even of the same design can have a different alloy used and heat treatment.
It would be a waste of time and money to make a product that is no better than the stock part.
Yank converters that are built for S/c or nitrous or our PT series will have the most added upgrades in materals and heat treatment done to all parts

One alloy will not do the job at Yank

trigger1

iTrader: (28)

You actually pertty much made my point here. One alloy will not do the job. Meaning you use more than one type of billet material. That was pretty much my arguement, just saying billet doesn't mean anything. The charateristics of the part are dictated by the grade / process and treatment of the material in use regardless if it comes from a billet or not. Simply implying billet is stronger is wrong. The arguement should be that this grade / process / treatment of steel is better than this type material that is used in a stock component. I will agree with you guys all day long on something like that.

Simply put Billet= Doesn't equal a specific material.

Not4Racin

Uhm, have to break it to you, but all aftermarket converters are done this way. Everyone uses a smaller OE core to make the 245mm converters (typically found on I4s). It is too costly for aftermarket companies to make new impeller, turbine, pump assemblies from scratch. This has been going on since 1960, and will continue. The goal is try and find a core that requires the least modification, this ensures a profit. Obviously the impeller hub, turbine hub, pilot hub and drive lugs are a must!
__________________
George P. Lara
HPTuned Vehicles:
2001 Camaro SS #0391
- LQ4, FTRA, GMS Lid, Full Hooker Exhaust, 3.73s, B&M Holeshot 3000
2002 1500HD 4x4
- 212/218 cam, AFE Intake, Gibson Exhaust, Pacesetter LTs
1998 Camaro Z28
- Heads/Cam, Stock Short Block LQ4
**************************************said 12secSS*******

Question:

Are all aftermarket companies using FWD converter assemblies then upgrading selected internal parts? Is that the "difference" between some top names and some not so top names?

What parts do all companies use straight from GM unaltered?

Thanks

Yank

iTrader: (181)

Some of the lower priced converters built out there use junk yard cores (245mm) as you stated, to rework with aftermarket kits that are produced off shore (China or India)
they are a low cost item so the total investment in the product is low, many costly and labor intensive operations are not used.

Yank is the only company that gets it's parts directly from GM as new unused product
We make all other items that we need in house and only use items that are built to our specs.
the inside content is mostly unique to our product as every converter sold is made of New parts are new and not rebuilt or reworked

Yank uses parts produced that have thicker than stock blades, housings and also have special stators produced for some models that no one else can buy!

there are many producers of aftermarket parts for converters out there, but the price and product all differs it is up the the converter manufacture to buy what they can affort to use.
We have used many products in the past 20 years and have found that To stay ahead of the market we must build our own parts with a no cost cutting attitude allowed, only the best is used.

To buy parts from a supplier is to be at the back of the line as you are 1-2 years behind times, and you cannot be a front runner that way.

here is a link to some of the parts

http://www.converter.cc/why_1/why_1_main.htm

TonyGXP

careful... TCI's "NEW" MaxEffort StreetFighter line is NOT holding up in our TBSS's.. the first couple Texas Speed got went in my truck and another guys.. I have a basically Stock truck, and it's 2WD, as was the other guys, both converters failed his within 300mi and mine less than 175 (I have a deep pan, cooler and 160f Tstat with Electric fans and whenever I got on the truck turned both on manually) his blew the trans , mine just left me with a ton of metal in the fluid after the various "banging" (I knew to get it out ASAP from Trans guys Like Vince & Chuck) besides the fact that both our converters were out of balance (a problem common with TCI's, well known do a search for yourself) Texas Speed was NOT happy about what TCI did with this line as of yet, nor was I.. I tried to convince myself all my friend's and others were just blowing smoke about TCI's problems, well after pulling the converter out and dropping the pan, I wish I had listened as I am sure I shortened the life of my 4L70E which only had 5k miles on it.. The truth is, using the law of averages, do a search on a number of forums and see who keeps "popping" up with issues, yeah there are other reasons that may contribute to a "possible" TC issue, b ut you can weed those ones out and get a decent idea of whose Reliable and who has some issues, and who is outright BAD.... Merry Christmas to all..

bene

iTrader: (16)

Whoah, slow down there billy. I was stating the obvious on his sig. Don't assume that I *know* what YANK/VIG/TCI or all other stall colors out there. I'm just a newb still trying to understand how automatics work. Its sooo much easier to *drive* the car manually you know.

zspot98

iTrader: (87)

These threads are wothless. Talking Stalls, is like talking to fat chicks about being on a diet...it just don't work. You are going to have haters, bandwagoners, and nut-huggers for every major manufactuer out there. Do the research and figure out what stall is best for your application. If you wanna spend $350, then do it. If you wanna spend $1000 then do it. Chances are you're going to get what you paid for, but that usually happens in life. Every aftermarket manufacturer is going to have some malfunctioning units, it just happens. However, it does seem that certian companies have more occurances of this.

I wonder where fuddle is? Yank has been in here discussing the topic? Maybe he's out telling people how great his customer service is. Who knows.

'Trust'

iTrader: (24)

It always sucks hearing stories about these issues. I went with TCI because the local shop here has recommended them and I haven't heard of an issue locally with TCI. I've had mine for a year, not one complaint. However I may be one of the lucky ones *knock on wood* and I am just fine with that. When its time to get a new converter I will definately be going with Yank, no question about it.

1jfuddle

iTrader: (7)

The pictures of the converter are a Fuddle Racing Performance Series torque converter. However, to be so quick to judgment about the quality of the converter and/or the fault of the converter is pretty hasty. Let me tell everyone what they are actually looking at. The clutch is ruined. There is no question about that. However, that is a proven clutch that we use in our Performance Series that has taken much more abuse than that particular car is capable of throwing at it. The material is the strongest available and is a carbon metallic, rather than the reybestos paper used by many other companies. Yes, our Performance Series uses a clutch that is approximately equal to stock. Approx. 17 sq. in. vs. 19 on the stock unit. With the addition of the better material, this is a clutch that we have hundreds of customers using on much more powerful setups with absolutely no problems. We offer free refreshes under warranty and the converters we see come back even after really hard seasons have absolutely cherry clutches. It simply is not a weak spot in the converter. At all.

Now let me shed some light on clutch failure and the causes. The original poster is accurate when he says the converter got the transmission hot. Higher stalls WILL do that and that is why we recommend a high quality cooling system to combat heat. Also, if there is any obstruction in the cooling lines, heat will accumulate very quickly and flash overheat a converter. At that point, even the 43 sq. in. (bigger than anything we have seen from the competition) in our HP/Street series, or the 48 sq. in. clutch in our HP/Race series WILL burn and look exactly like that one does. Low line pressure and excessive pulse width modulation will also cause this kind of damage. The bottom line is that if everything inside the transmission was truly working correctly, and the computer was commanding proper pressure, this failure would not have happened. The converter did not cause this kind of failure; it is built to take a lot more power than that setup could make.

I am more than happy to discuss anything else seen inside the converter. The “shitty welds” for example, simply show a lack of understanding of what you are looking at. The actual weld is on the other side. You are looking at a picture of the reverse side of a deep penetration MIG weld. This is an extremely strong weld and has had no problem in our single digit cars and setups making more than 1500 hp. You won’t find a stronger turbine spline setup in any converter on the market, period. That is virgin metal that is heat treated and modified for better engagement which is a step I haven’t seen taken by many other companies (I’ve never seen it). Everything else you see is top quality material. Virgin Torrington bearings; a heat treated precision hub; individually hand brazed primary blaes, a process much more expensive and time consuming that simply furnace brazing to achieve a superior hold on the primary; a stator race made specifically for this application that uses extra folds in the springs for a more affirmative clutch feel; and perfectly parallel precision building on the fabrication of the front cover itself.

This converter clutch is 17 sq. in. but as I stated earlier, is well within its capability of handling this car. The material is superior and the holding power is very similar to that of stock. Extensive testing and real world results have shown that it is quite capable of easily supporting even the most aggressive heads/cam cars. Beyond that, you may need more clutch surface to handle extra torque. If you want clutch size, our HP/Street series converter is absolutely huge at an amazing 43 sq. in. and is more than twice the size of stock.

This converter is our inexpensive model, but we do stand behind it with a no questions asked warranty. Even with the converter having been cut open, and the fact that it was flash overheated, we will still honor the warranty. Simply get the parts back to us, and we would be happy to rebuild the converter, or if you feel you need more clutch surface even than the current converter you have, we could upgrade you to the HP/Street Series. Either way, we transfer warranties. So, if you wanted to throw it up on ebay after it was refreshed, that would be an option for you.

Thanks,
John
Fuddle Racing

2002_Z28_Six_Speed

iTrader: (19)

The industry does not support this "carbon metallic" compound you are referring to. There is a material that factory converters use with a very similar name. Too similar. Maybe that is what you are using?? Funny, because most converters which come from a junkyard core still have the stock clutch. And you claim it to the same dimentions. Anyways, carbon ceramic. I think that is the substance you meant to say.



Also, please explain the following statement since the parts are completely unrelated. How does heat treating the hub solve problems that furance brazing does? I do not see any relation at all. I am more concered about the ridigity of the fins and loss of flow due to an unbrazed turbine/pump than the mechanical connection between the hub and pump. How the hell would you break that? The fins need to be address way before you start arguing over parts that will never break.

"a heat treated precision hub; a process much more expensive and time consuming that simply furnace brazing to achieve a superior hold on the primary;"

Maybe I am just reading you wrong though. Let me go get the old reading glasses.

1jfuddle

iTrader: (7)

Carbon metallic. Meant to say it. Although I suppose it should be more accurately referred to as "high-carbon metallic"
Sorry for any confusion.

The1N_only

iTrader: (7)

Im running a 15x10x1 cooler is a 10" 1900cfm fan and 6AN lines from the tranny to the cooler... There is no way this should have got as hot as it did

1jfuddle

iTrader: (7)

I have seen 6 an lines, when used on a 700r4/4l60e considerably slow velocity of fluid, acting like a reservoir. This loss in velocity can lead to a pressure loss inside the transmission itself. You are right, the fluid should have never been as hot as it was. Had it been kept in check, and adequate pressure applied to the clutch, it would have lasted years at least. High stalls create heat. That is the nature of the game.

It is quite evident that clutch failed due to excess heat. To blame that on the converter is premature at best. If there is a heat problem, I highly recommend finding it before it takes out the next converter, or hope it was in the old transmission.

Failure was caused by too much heat. We agree on that. Even if the clutch were at fault, which it is evident that it is not, it would simply not create the kind of heat required to blacken the pads on the converter. I am sorry you had troubles, but the converter did not fail you. However, as I mentioned before, we will still cover the converter under warranty.

1jfuddle

iTrader: (7)

Thank you for nit picking. I will modify the original post. I did leave out a bit. Thank you very much for noticing.
As a side note, likely much to your personal surprise, we have never, not once, seen blown down blades on a converter. Even on 1600 hp setups.
Sorry for the confusion.

JL ws-6

iTrader: (50)

I have a firend of mine with a fuddle converter in his car, and he's been happy with it to date... I however ended up with a converter that Lenny @ Ultimate Converter did for me.... I have zero complaints.

Bottom line, spend 400 bucks, you're getting a 400 dollar converter, spend 1200, you're getting a 1200 dollar converter. Everything has it's place.

mdacton

iTrader: (3)

if you don't want the fuddle get something else and sell that one
I think its great that he will warrenty it for you...Fuddle could say the heat destroyed it and leave you hanging.

There are a lot of variables to just blame them. But either way...the man will warrenty it so good luck

Matt D

iTrader: (49)

I'm sorry you had bad luck with your TCI. Was it an off the shelf Max Effort? My converter isn't. It started out as a 242937 (SSF3500 with billet cover, and then they upgraded the impellor, stator, and lockup. It is now a 4500) I told Kevin Winstead all of my mods, and what I was looking to get out of the car, and that is what he built for me. I am not saying it is bullet proof, but I never had problems with my old TCI. That and their customer service is why I went back to them. Some have good luck some don't. Oh well, tough ****. You get what you pay for.

Vince is a friend of mine and I value the advice he has given me on my transmission & the components inside it. Although he did not recommend the TCI, he still respects my decision and is building me a trans for my car regardless.

P.S. I'm jewish, so Happy Hanukkah

2002_Z28_Six_Speed

iTrader: (19)

I guess close enough is why there was a GM 1980's 4 cylinder clutch which is only rated for 185 ft/lbs in that converter. The clutch you use, the one with two rivets in each side is not able to support the power of a V8. Even if it could the dampers aren't matched for the vehicle's power. Sorry, you lose.


Deformation of the blades is very common in industry as when you extrude a toriod of oil and change its direction from centerfugal to axial that just requires a lot of force on those thin metal blades. As a result furance brazing was even implemented on factory vehicles with FACTORY HP. Not very common though. With 1600 HP you are going to see deformation problems as well as a leakage out of the turbine. Enough so to even say partially apply the clutch in certain applications.

Your welcome.

1jfuddle

iTrader: (7)

Actually, real world testing and R&D has shown this clutch's ability to handle even a well modified LS1 due to the demanding build process involved in controlling clutch surface, using the correct materials, and precision cover work. While the piston cannot house a clutch the size of our HP/Street (no converter we've seen does-including from your former employer), this clutch is more than capable of handling even well modified LS1 setups. Ask the hundreds of happy Fuddle Performance Series customers. They will beg to differ with your assessment. As stated, this converter has proven itself time and again in modified setups.

Yes, but you have forgotten the volume difference between a factory 298mm (GM V8 in 1995), and a 245mm converter. Significant volume is lost moving to a smaller converter, and, as such, pressure on the blades is never going to be the same as in a full diameter converter. Also, torque multiplication is at its greatest on initial impact on the blades ("JUST starting to take off").
I guess it is my turn to nit pick. Sorry.

We have more than 20 years of experience in building converters, and once again, we not only offer, but encourage our customers to take advantage of free refreshes under warranty. This means that our highest powered customers have their converters back after hard seasons to get a good once over. We have never seen deformation of the blades. Even on extreme setups.

Ragtop 99

iTrader: (7)

Most of the clutch failures reported on this board are caused by the normal wear of routine driving and not because someone sprayed a 200 shot through a locked clutch. Unless the converter is being locked up at WOT by someone who changed the programming or installed a switch, it simply isn't going to see a lot of torque whether the car is heads & cam or stock. Look at the PCM programming. You simply can not get close to WOT without the clutch unlocking.

You can alter the friction properties of the clutch material and strength of the material, but having more surface area rather than less is more appealing to me. I've seen a number of different "superior" clutch materials fail over time in clutches with reduced surface area.